quote:

If it is "the US needs more regulation" then the answer you will get is NO

Well said Jeffe, the last thing we need is more government invlovement in guns.

Spring Trap,
The 130% implies proof testing and that is not a requirement in the United States, not only for "backyard" gunsmiths but also from major manufacturers. If those are the only standards and they are taking everyones money for that, they you are getting screwed. But in this case you seem to feel good about it. We can look at this as a government prostitute then, without the hands on pleasure.

Most firearms companies here in the US do some testing of their own in house as do most gunsmiths. I do not know how far they go towards the "blue pill" concept. Nonetheless they do it to save their ass in case of problems. You seem to feel comfort in the government telling you it is saving your ass.

Jeffe, I was just funning you. Hope you took it that way. Yes modicum is like a small Texas pinch. Just trying to get you out of that dross in your garage to have some fun. (In Texas, dross is like dust)

Ditto that, a one-time proof load would not necessarily be sufficient to cause the failures that happened in the TIKKAs. All it means is that particular gun met 130% that one time. It can still be a ticking time bomb.

As for certification, there is a huge difference between being able to take tests well and being able to apply knowledge practically and accurately. Just try to hire a competent A/C technician and see what I mean.

That kernel of fact is lost among those who only take tests well because they end up teaching, often about something they couldn't do for living if they were starving.

That's why the typical backyard firearms tinkerer (regardless of nationality) is on average competent; because most likely he/she spent a lot of time among those who "do" and can "teach" at the same time. This forum couldn't be a better example of that.

quote:

We can look at this as a government prostitute then, without the hands on pleasure.

Red

jeffeosso:

I was curious as to why first world countries like the US/Canada would allow citizens to chop and change their firearms almost entirely as they wish. Certainly these countries should be more safety and security orientated like an developing country such as the RSA with such strict firearm laws.
Through this thread I have now learned that with you the receiver is licensed as opposed to the barrel with us. That leaves practically no scope for us (together with sec.94 of our act) to play around with our rifles. Yet lot's of scope for you guys - sounds as if you know what you're doing over there!

customstox:
Headspaces are also measured before and after pressure tests.

Agree with you, one lot of tests cannot guarantee a fool proof rifle, although it does serve a purpose in as far as the manufacturer has to adhere to the standards set throughout as long as that soecific product is marketed.
Below standard rifles will also not reach the end user - that is important in any market!
Not so?

that points out the basic fallacy (from our POV) of the argument, that safety and security come about by government action. as if governments are some big, warm, fuzzy entity with only out best interests at heart. gov'ts are self-serving self-agrandizing living entities which abuse power to excess and are not to be given any more leeway than necessary to function. that being said, we're already behind the power curve in the US too.

Larry,
man, i knew you was funnin me!!!
tried to be funnin back! was in that selfsame shoppe (er garage) last night!!



Springtrap,

I think what we've learned is that if the RSA does barrels registration , then fooling around barrel plumbing is probably not going to be a hobby...

there's also an underlaying assumpting.. that guns are "registered" at all in the US... that is, registered in the sense of chain of ownership. Simply not the case, nor the intent of any FEDERAL law.

jeffe

RSA WAS an excellent country at one time. Since it began trying to imitate the United Nations in its bureaucracy-enhancement efforts, I hope it has not gone too far downhill.

I own a number of Musgrave rifles of different models, including Trevor's first .404 Jeffrey chambering, which was made on special order for me.

Despite government imposed "expertise", Musgrave didn't get the order straight. It was supposed to be a Musgrave "target" action opened up to have a magazine, and the Mauser style extractor.

After 6 years of waiting, what was delivered was a gun built on a Sako-style push-feed action. Hardly the thing I wanted as a medium bore DG rifle... I kept it because of the hassle of returning it through the RSA bureacracy, but I have bought no more RSA rifles.

Now, to ammunition... The poorest factory ammunition I have ever used in my life, among more than a hundred thousand central-fire rounds (100,000-200,000) I have fired to date, has to be the 4 full cases of Musgrave brand ammo in .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester which I bought in the late 1980's-early 90's. You COULD hit a barn with it, but you had to be inside the barn to pull that off successfully every shot. And it had frequent "pressure-spiking" rounds which would make bolt-lift a little difficult...or a lot.

My signature says it all for me.

Alberta Canuck:

The problems you had with Musgrave was purely a manufacturer not producing what was ordered by the client.
Had nothing to do with SABS - they would simply test and proof what the manufacturer offer to them to do so - SABS has no insight in what was ordered by the client.

Anyhow, thank you all that participated in this thread with your postings. I think we all learned a lot about each others ways and means, laws and regulations, etc.

I'm not saying that our firearms control act is best, to the contrary we all hate it. But, there is also a lot of sense in it security and safety wise. Trust it will be improved in years to come.

Then I don't think I've told you enough about the SABS in RSA - they are only a semi-government operation and renders a lot of valuable services to industry and consumers over a broad spectrum of goods and services available in the RSA.
Visit their web site and see for yourself what they are actually doing to the benefit of RSA and others.

Springtrap -

It does not matter that SABS is a semi-private organization at the moment.

What matters is that is has governing powers.

It is a matter of no great moment for government to move SABS from the private sphere to being a public body, by legislation, Executive Order, or Order-in-Council.
It's records alone would be a gold-mine for a totalitarian state.

You now have laws restricting who can work on firearms, you need a license to own a firearm, the fee for which can be raised to prohibitive levels at the government's pleasure. You have restrictions of the calibers and ammunition which can be owned. You have limits on how many firearms each RSA resident can own.

Do not those limits, and their increasing restrictiveness in recent years, tell you anything?

Great Britain has already been down that Hellish slippery road. Australia is well on the path. Canada is about to go even farther down the garden trail, with its government about to introduce legislation banning ALL possession of ALL handguns.

Even Switzerland has recently taken its first severe steps on that trail of tears.

The U.S. is pretty much the only country in the industrialized world where the great unwashed, non-elite, common man still has significant firearms rights.

Unfortunately, we also have import restrictions, and those who charge to work on firearms here are also registered and required to pay increasingly high fees for federal licenses.

But, we do not have restrictions on or registration of who can work on firearms if they do not do it for profit. We have no limits in most states as to how many firearms a citizen can possess, and in most U.S. jurisdictions there is no registratrion of firearms or license required to own firearms.

Those rights are constantly under attack here by both internal and foreign lovers of the "nanny-state".

They are also under attack in your country as well. It is just that due to the differences in our governing systems, most of the attacks have to be made in the open here, where we voting citizens can often effectively fight back.

In RSA they are mainly attacks made in caucus where the ordinary citizen not only can't fight back, he won't even know the attacks are in progress.

So, would I like to see more of your "citizen safety" laws here? In a word, NO. In two words, "HELL NO!!!"

Let the citizen be independent enough to protect himself in every way...and to bring dread to the hearts of would-be tyrants.

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
From the postings on this forum it seems as if private gun building/modifying is something big in the US, Canada and perhaps other countries as well.

Some of the questions asked here re bolt strength, maximum pressure capabilities, etc. makes me wonder and the question that comes up in my mind is:
How safe and secure is this backyard gunsmithing?

Personally I would never buy a second hand rifle in a country where this type of backyard gun building takes place on a large scale. One would never know what you get and when such a rifle can blow up in your face!

How do you guys feel about this?

On the contrary, the best way to keep from getting a shitty rifle in any way shape or form is to have a knowledge of rifles before you buy. Do that and you will be covered on all aspects.

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
jeffeosso:

I was curious as to why first world countries like the US/Canada would allow citizens to chop and change their firearms almost entirely as they wish. Certainly these countries should be more safety and security orientated like an developing country such as the RSA with such strict firearm laws.
(sic)

It's really a quite simple concept, it's called private property. Ie, the gun is mine, I can do with it whatever I want that I find fit. There are a few stipulations from our 1932 gun laws, that would be, rifle barrels can't be cut shorter than 16", shotguns not shorter than 18", I can't make a semi auto into a full auto, can't make handguns larger than 50 caliber, and I can't make my own silencer.

If I screw up my gun, it's my own damn fault! If I heart someone, they can and likely will sue me for every last penny I have, which is a pretty strong incentive to do the right thing.

I've dealt with quite a few quality agencies and regulations, both US and international. I can make an absolute truthful statement that in the US and foreign countries, such organizations and rules do not by themselves make for quality products or work! It comes down to a someone who knows what their job doing good work, no more, no less. All the regulations due is increase prices, and often keep folks on that can't do good work, just because they are certified for whatever the craft happens to be.

Seems to me with all your firearms restrictions in RSA, it's a pretty crappy country to own firearms in. I'll take the US system over any other countries, and don't have a problem being responsible for my guns, or being responsible when choosing new or used ones to purchase.

It seems obvious at this point SpringTrap is aptly named. Quit feeding the troll and it'll go away.

Take note, follow this link and see why this thread was started in the first place.

Spring Trap,
I went to that web site and tried the search under standards. I tried firearms and got some requirements for safe construction for storage of firearms and ammo. Under gunsmiths and gunsmithing I found nothing, nada, zilch. So from what I see from their site, there are no criteria published but they are horribly concerned on how you store your guns.

If you look at the archives it goes all the way back to 2004. Is that when it started? And you are suggesting that it is such a success? The standards are in draft form.

I downloaded the entire catalog of standards and again found nothing about guns, gunsmiths, gun barrels. I did find a section dedicated to handkerchiefs. Now that has to make you feel a lot safer. Talk about burocratic bull shit, this takes the cake.

And why am I not suprised that someone wanting someone else, in this case a government, to be responsible for them?

It seems in this situation they are incapable of making responsible choices for themselves in the first place, as they can't even choose an established totalitarian gov't program.

I had to go find my blood pressure medication before making this reply.

I applied for registration as a gunsmith with the SA Police in 1979. The officer who handled my application inspected the premises for security and the strongroom required for storage, but was not concerned about my ability to work on guns. When I asked, he said: "If you are a good gunsmith, you will remain in business, if you are a bad gunsmith, you will not."

Some years later the law changed. Gunsmiths had to have a formal qualification in machining and had to complete an apprenticeship under the wing of an established gunsmith. At the end of the apprentice period, the applicant had to complete a trade test at the government test center, which had a well equipped workshop and assessors who knew the trade. However, under the law, engravers and stockmakers were also classed as gunsmiths, and they were put in the position where they had to obtain qualifications in a trade that had nothing to do with the work they eventually wound up doing.

The system started going downhill from there. The last man who completed his apprenticeship at my shop and registered for the trade test at the end of 2003, called me in a panic from the trade test center with the news that there were no tools to use and that the lathe was broken. The five day assessment required of him to chamber and fit a barrel to an action, fit the barreled action to a stock, fit a recoil pad and swivels and prepare the stock for final finishing. He also had to time a revolver and do some minor trouble shooting on a pistol. He was given a couple of screwdrivers, some sanding paper and a flat wood chisel.

I called the man in charge of the trade center and asked him what was going on. He called back later and said that it seems that the tools were stolen. I agreed to pack the required tools and courier it to the test center so that my apprentice could complete the work. The lathe was repaired and he received the tools on the Wednesday morning. Consequently, he did not have enough time to complete all the work. I called again and asked if the test center will carry his costs for staying over the weekend and into the following week. The reply was that he will be assessed on what he has completed by midday on the Friday, and will receive full credits for anything not completed.

With the change to the new Firearms Control Act in 2000, a gunsmith must obtain a competency certificate proving he knows how to identify, take apart and reassemble and fire a shotgun, a bolt rifle, one handgun and one semi-auto carbine. He must also prove a certain level of knowledge of the new Firearms Control Act. It appears that the trade test can now be done without the aforegoing apprenticeship period but I am not 100% sure of that.

All existing gunsmiths who have not done the trade test ever (in business prior to 1994), must be assessed by an assessor from the Government appointed institution handling these assessments. At this stage there is no indication when these assessments will take place.

Ahh.. the SABS.

This venerable institution is supposed to proof fire and certify a barreled action every time a barrel has been taken off an action and replaced, or a new barrel has been fitted to an action, or the weight of a barreled action has been changed by more than one third of it's original weight. Proof firing consists of checking the headspace, firing three 30% over charge loads and checking the headspace again. This will cost the gunsmith, who cannot deliver the gun in person, R500.00 to courier the firearm to the SABS, R160.00 for the proof firing and another R500.00 to courier the arm back to him. R1160.00 = US$180.00 = 150.00 Euro.

I built a 6mm Mach IV for a customer and called the SABS to arrange proof firing. I was told to send the rifle with ready loaded ammo as they do not have a die set for it. It was fired and proof stamped and delivered to the customer. Go figure.

A gun shop in Port Elizabeth sold a South African built 7mm Rem Mag. The customer returned it with the complaint that it would not chamber factory ammunition. Upon checking, the gunsmith found that the chamber was only partially cut and it would not even chmber a 7x57 round. It was proof stamped.

The SABS wrote the specs for gun safes, strongrooms and the burglar proofing of premises licensed to sell firearms etc. They devote almost half the spec booklets to the paint finish of the safes.

The new Act of 2000 requires a SABS specified level of burglar proofing at gun shops that is virually equal to a maximum security prison. This despite the fact that no gun shop that I know of has ever been robbed after hours. In SA, all arms and ammunition have to be locked in a vault when the shop is closed for business. The vault spec is 300mm concrete (30mPa) floor, walls and roof containing a lattice work of 10mm steel rods woven and tied at 100mm intervals. The vault door is hardened steel and double locked with 8 lever tumblers. My door weighs over 400kg (880lbs). The question now asked is: Why do I need all that burglar proofing to protect my shopfittings that are no different to that of the laundry next door. If I am goin to get robbed of my guns and ammunition in stock, it is going to happen when I am open for business and the bad guys are going to walk in like regular customers.

On another topic: The SABS sent representatives to all aftermarket auto spares shops and instructed them to remove all automotive bulbs (globes, lamps) that were of a higher power than the SABS specification bulbs. They said it had become illegal to sell such bulbs.

In the Eastern Cape, hitting animals on the road at night is a significant statistic in road deaths. I have always used at least 500 watts worth of lights on the front of all my road cars and, where mountings are possible, up to 800 watts. I have never hit any animal at night in 40 years of driving.

I could not believe that such a stupid law could have been passed and researched the matter. Turns out that it had become illegal to use the SABS or EU trade mark on bulbs that do not conform to the specs of those organisations. It remains legal to sell any bulb you wish to sell, regardless of the power rating, as long as it does not carry the SABS mark on the packaging. Not the same thing, is it, and not what the goons from the SABS told the auto shops. The result is that high power bulbs can be bought "under the counter" at a premium price and I wonder who is making the money here.

One more time, in the USA we are citizens.
Others are subjects.
That is why we have a Bill of Rights.
One good thing about Government agencies; Sooner or later they report to someone that is responsible to voters. Private concerns are responsible only to stockholders, and the courts.
Good luck!