From the postings on this forum it seems as if private gun building/modifying is something big in the US, Canada and perhaps other countries as well.

Some of the questions asked here re bolt strength, maximum pressure capabilities, etc. makes me wonder and the question that comes up in my mind is:
How safe and secure is this backyard gunsmithing?

Personally I would never buy a second hand rifle in a country where this type of backyard gun building takes place on a large scale. One would never know what you get and when such a rifle can blow up in your face!

How do you guys feel about this?

I think you should sell you're guns, and just play golf

The mind is a terrible thing to loose!!

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:

How safe and secure is this backyard gunsmithing?

Depends upon whose backyard.

GV

Grandview is right depending on the person.

Back yards smiths can vari from replaceing stocks, sites, and trigger work too doing a whole gun.

Some do a very fine job those who don't it is fairly easy to tell their work.

I have brought some cheap rifles that have been messed with. It normaly just takes a little work to bring them back.

Most of the work is not dangerous stock carving ect.

People think they need to make their guns look differant.

But for us in the know one can pick up some good deals.

If i get a good deal on a good riffle at a time i can afford it ! I'll buy.
The closest I have come to getting burned is on an old remington built 03-A3 , some one ground the rear top of the reciever down for a peep site to far to mount a scope. I can get it fixed for about 75.00 dollars. Other than that the guy did a real nice job of sporterizing the rifle. Turned down the barrel and polished and blued it...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
From the postings on this forum it seems as if private gun building/modifying is something big in the US, Canada and perhaps other countries as well.

Some of the questions asked here re bolt strength, maximum pressure capabilities, etc. makes me wonder and the question that comes up in my mind is:
How safe and secure is this backyard gunsmithing?

Personally I would never buy a second hand rifle in a country where this type of backyard gun building takes place on a large scale. One would never know what you get and when such a rifle can blow up in your face!

How do you guys feel about this?

How about a whole lot of Tikkas blowing up and injuring people? Or factory Remington triggers discharging and shooting bystanders?

There are more documented cases of factory guns like the above failing than individually modified guns.

OTOH, I would not take a gift of someone else's handloads unless that person were known to me and I had specific knowledge of their practices. I think that is the greater risk among do-it-yourself firearms activities.

As for buying any used gun, it should be inspected by a competent person before shooting unless the source is that same competent person.

Surely you do that in the RSA?

I strongly recommend that if you see or here of any cheap guns for sale for safeties sake do not buy them! they have obviously been messed with and are a time bomb, instead contact me and I will sort through these atrocities and take any action appropriate to dispose of these mankillers.

I think you should stick with makeing springtraps. Thank you Mr. Springtrap, please call again,...........NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I asked a local gunsmith what it took to be licensed here in NY. The answer is a Fed Firearms Lic. (no criminal record, well locked shop,a safe for guns, logbook), and a NY State Gunsmith Lic.(no criminal record, locked storage, permission from Township Zoning Board). Skills test? Nada! Send all suspect guns to me, too!

Tiggertate has that pegged, handloads are much more dangerous in the grand scheme of things. If a gun has been worked on I can tell and poor workmanship leaves a distinct mark which its very easy to spot. Handloads on the other hand, without pulliing them apart and having an expensive means to verify powder types, etc are potential little bombs with no visable means to verify they are safe.

Another point previously addressed is a extreme spread of skill set. Some of the backyard Bubba's your condemning are fully qualified and tooled up to be full time gunsmiths if they choose, they don't quit their day jobs and do it full time, simply because what they are currently doing pays the bills a lot better. Smart business decison on their part, and a profitable ( or non profitable in a couple of cases ) hobby is all they intend to pursue.

Yes there are some really poorly sportorised firearms, they are very easy to spot, and the real truth is on any old firearm a headspace gauge should be used before you fire it anyway.

In short I think some of our Bubba's are excellent smiths, I have a friend who graduated from Trinidad, and has built benchrest stuff for years. He could be a full time smith if he wanted, his descion was his trade paid about $20 a hour more, further it is steady and regular, and he is soon to reap the benefits of the retirement. He is setting his shop back up currently, but not planning on hanging out a shingle anytime soon.

I think another item you should understand is our Bubba's are better trained than you give them credit for many are already machinists. And the NRA runs gunsmithing seminars every year in multiple locations here in the US. You might be very suprised at what is being done by these individuals that have a little motivation to learn and apply these aquired skills.

In defense of our Bubba's I think we have some of the best in the world, I will open this up to all of N America, to include Canada also ( although I am not sure they want to be included as Bubba's)

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
Personally I would never buy a second hand rifle in a country where this type of backyard gun building takes place on a large scale. One would never know what you get and when such a rifle can blow up in your face!

"Kitchen table" gunsmiths have to be the worst of the lot.

In RSA the much more strict firearm licensing procedures requires that a firearm sold, either private or gun dealer, must have SABS approval (South African Buro of Standards).
If modified in any way that results in a firearm being different from the originally licensed and approved firearm, which can only be done by a fully licensed and competent gunsmith or manufacturer of firearms in order to obtain a new SABS approval, serves as protection against faulty workmanship for buyers.

As craigster put it, no "kitchen table" gunsmithing done to a rifle can end up in somebody completely innocent's hands through any legal sale by doing it this way.

Are all these procedures required in the US/Canada?

You still haven't addressed that fact that all that SABS crap didn't keep a bunch of factory Tikkas from blowing up. Where was the value then? Just more taxation for no good purpose if you ask me. All you get for it is a false sense of security at best.

Bottom line, buyer beware. If you can't judge workmanship by yourself or are unwilling to pay for a professional evaluation, stay away from no-name custom guns.

Do SABS certify all RSA used autos? Can you sell a car upon which some dork did a poor "kitchen table" brake job? How would you know? Much more real danger on the road than handling firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
In RSA the much more strict firearm licensing procedures requires that a firearm sold, either private or gun dealer, must have SABS approval (South African Buro of Standards).
If modified in any way that results in a firearm being different from the originally licensed and approved firearm, which can only be done by a fully licensed and competent gunsmith or manufacturer of firearms in order to obtain a new SABS approval, serves as protection against faulty workmanship for buyers.

As craigster put it, no "kitchen table" gunsmithing done to a rifle can end up in somebody completely innocent's hands through any legal sale by doing it this way.

Are all these procedures required in the US/Canada?

SpringTrap...Timan seems to think you're a Troll...And you might be...But to answer your question; our "procedures required" here in the USA, probably won't follow those of a third world country..... Instead, we'll just kinda blunder along as THE world leader, with our own outdated "procedures". They've worked pretty well so far........Grant.

quote:

If modified in any way that results in a firearm being different from the originally licensed and approved firearm, which can only be done by a fully licensed and competent gunsmith or manufacturer of firearms in order to obtain a new SABS approval, serves as protection against faulty workmanship for buyers.

On the surface the plan sounds like a public protection measure. In actuality it seems like a way for the government to punish gun owners. It would be a way to justify confiscation of guns from the poorer segments of society. "Oh, look here you modified the rear sight, I'll take that". Only a very rich shooter could afford to have all work done by the "mucky muck" smith. It certainly serves as a way for government buerocrats to seperate you from your money, getting "SABS" approval and such. It looks like back door gun control to me. I think it stinks and would fight such an idea in any way I could.

As far as the strict RSA gun standards.........I understand them to be so strict, its getting hard to buy/own a gun. That is no doubt good protection from faulty workmanship for buyers.


I'll take the potential of backyard gunsmiths and US gun laws to over regulation and restrictive gun ownership anytime.

The best defense against the neandersmiths is to be an informed consumer. Let the market decide who should be in business, not the government.

Brian Bingham

As a rule (in the US), if you were to cause an injury or death to someone through negligence or malpractice, you will get $ued out of business.

SpringTrap, aside from the implied insults, if there are any, there are a couple of other points. You mentioned "licensed and competent" gunsmiths. As I understand the RSA laws, there are no required courses of study, or quality certifications necessary to be one of the SABS gunsmiths. You just need to fill in the form, pay the $$$ and show a modicum of experience. Hell, even Jeffe can do that! Secondly, the point about the car and making changes to it is also valid. I have bought more factory rifles that I thought were unsafe than Bubba altered. Lastly, since there is the SABS, if you go through all of that and still get a bad one, can you then sue the SABS for being negligent in whom it certifies. If not, then I agree with the others that it is just a way for the government to part you from your money.

Springtrap,

First, I think you'd be wise to try not extrapolate from what's posted on this board to what's widespread in North America. I think there are far fewer folks putting guns together in the US/Canada than you might think by reading posts here. If this board was your only frame of reference, you'd think that more than 1% of the US population hunt in Africa or shoot big bores.

But, I think Western societies need to be careful about starting to think of gunsmithing and other technical fields as black magic, too, and imposing more restrictions on who can do what. Working on cars is becoming like that, and I think it's a shame. It goes against the spirit of self-reliance I think we used to share. I have a friend from RSA who came over to Chicago for a few years. He worked for a contractor, and the contractor was very happy because he could do framing, electrical, plumbing, etc. So my perception has always been that RSA shared a common heritage of self-reliance (vice gov't reliance).

Steve

Springtrap.

As I understood your gun laws, the barrel of the firearm is what is licensed.

Here in the USA it is the reverse, the reciever is licensed and we can buy as many barrels as we want with no paperwork.

I ran into a customer once in Reno at the SCI show and we had a devil of a time explaining things up here to him. As he wanted to leave the USA with all the rifle actions he could carry. Sorry an Export permit is required to do that here.

I have been Gunsmithing for 34 years now and never once studied in a trade school. I have redone lots of repairs over the years that someone else has messed up on. It finally got to the point that I would turn down those type of jobs, and concentrate on custom work. There are persons here that should not ever work on any firearm. And then there are ones that do excellent work. Hopefully I feel that these are in the majority.
If you want to see the type of work I do then check out the ACGG raffle project for this year. http://www.ACGG.com

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

J Wisner:

Correct, in RSA the barrel is licenced.
Further more, one may only be in possession of firearm parts for which you hold a licence - (Section 94 of the FCA 60 of 2000). No playing around and modifying as you freely wish.

Gunsmiths are required to have a competency certificate before they could apply for a licence and comply with all the strict rules and regulations that goes with it.

As somebody mentioned on this thread, I know of no Tikka's that exploded in the RSA - so looks as if the SABS regulations do work.
SABS standards can in many (would dare to say most cases) be compared to be as strict as the German TUV specs and standards.

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:

As somebody mentioned on this thread, I know of no Tikka's that exploded in the RSA - so looks as if the SABS regulations do work.
SABS standards can in many (would dare to say most cases) be compared to be as strict as the German TUV specs and standards.

I believe that should be credited to the laws of probabilities, not the SABS. They have no process that would identify the faulty lot of barrels among a shippment.

Spring trap, you may have said it yourself. You "know of no Tikka's that exploded in the RSA." That does not mean it did not happen and if it they did in fact have some failures, then the SABS standards would have done nothing. Do you have some internet link so we can look at these standards or do we have to take you word that they accomplish so much.

here in this country we have a very long standing tradition of doing things ourselves and our original gun industry would fall largely into the backyard gunsmithing category. it's this little notion called "independence". you should try it.

as such guns are mechanical devices like cars, washing machines, drill presses, you name it. we here in the US take responsibility for ourselves (at least some of us still do) and do NOT need a government telling us what's best for us thank you very much. we get by quite nicely without even more bureaucracy to restrict every breath we take. i guess in RSA you have some gov't agency to overlook how you change your sparkplugs, work on your brakes, etc. hell, i work with a guy who's into flying and of course does his own annual. i'd bet you think that's dangerous and risky too. after all, airplanes are dangerous and the great, unwashed stupid masses of Americans surely couldn't be trusted to do something as complex as work on an AIRPLANE!

besides, being an engineer w/ some training as a machinist, i'll trust my own gun work over very much of what i'd have to pay for.

in short, we here in the US really don't give a flying fig what other countries think of our practices and procedues.

my current batch of rifles, only 3 are pure factory. the rest i built myself including one of my FAL's (tho i gather you in the RSA aren't allowed to own those anymore anyway). only had bbls fitted by "gunsmiths" in 2 instances. and they all work just fine with complete safety thank you very much and i don't need some damn government agency to tell me they're OK or what i can do with them. that's another little right we (so far still) have called "personal property". i realize most of these concepts will be alien to the rest of the world.

... You just need to fill in the form, pay the $$$ and show a modicum of experience. Hell, even Jeffe can do that! S...[/QUOTE]


what's a modicum? that like an RCH or a pinch?


Heh, I've done bubba gunsmithing IN the backyard, under an easy-up, wishing I could sit in the kitchen.... cuz it was like 95 degrees!!!

This aint the RSA.. it's the USA..

We don't have proof houses... okay.. aint US made rifles that blow up from the fatory

and we sell BOAT LOADS of surplus rifles, that are "must be inspected before use" that go from the gunshow (with ammo) out a dirt road or to a range.

the same ones that are "arsenal rebuilds" in countries that you wouldn't buy a car built in...

or are imported, from countries with proof houses, that have PROOF MARKS and INSPECTION MARKS but are sold from that country with mismtached bolts and KNOWN headspace issues.

(yeah, that prooves how "good" proof/inspection marks are and how much they keep you "safe")

If second hand rifles in the US scares someone.. don't buy it.

jeffe

I would never support something like what you are describing SpringTrap. Not only is it too much interference and power on the part of big brother, it is like every other firearms law in the world, it only affects the honest people, making their lives more difficult. Dishonest people and idiots (in the case of people that shouldn't modify guns doing so anyways) will always ignore laws. I doubt that the guns the poachers use were acquired according to the specifications of which you speak, and any modifications done to their equipment are of course illegal, I doubt they give it two shakes.

And having a competency level is a very difficult thing as well. I know the ACGG has a critique of I believe 3 other smiths that must judge an applicants work (3 smiths that I think do the same sort of thing, i.e. metalsmith judging metal work) to decide if they qualify. Who does this where you live? How good are THEY? What Jerry Fisher considers quality stockwork would likely put half the GOOD stockmakers out of the game, guys that the rest of us are happy with. What my local shop considers acceptable checkering (and I wouldn't pay for) would get a whole slew of guys with dull needle files and tunnel vision into the game.

Although I think it would be great for gunsmiths to all be of a certain level of quality, government is not the way to do it, in my opinion. What about the guys that are good at pad installs, recoil reducers, bedding etc., the small stuff most shop business is? Would they be able to pass a test on doing a whole stock from scratch or making a custom set of bases and rings, or an octagon barrel?

My gunsmith is like Jim Wisner in having never gone to gunsmithing school (at least I don't think he ever did), BUT he did go to machinist school, I think his work is great and have never had reason to complain. I have met guys that went to gunsmithing school who can do the "plumbing" of it, but when it comes to finer points or figuring out the difficult things they can't get it.

In short, the fact that a guy works out of his home shop or garage and isn't examined and harassed by a government agency does not make him a bad smith. It is the responsibility of the buyer to look at a gun and know if the work looks like it was done properly or not. If in doubt they can take their chances with an off the shelf gun. Do you not think that their (the big companies) QC process makes a mistake once in a while? does this mean that some people might get a bum deal sometimes on a used gun or custom rifle? sure. But so do the guys that get Winchesters with crooked scope mounting holes or Marlins with cracked stocks (like the one my stepfather won brand new and is waiting to get back from Marlin right now).

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
...In short, the fact that a guy works out of his home shop or garage ...
Red

remember, microsoft, IBM, Ford, and Apple started in garages!!!!


jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
...In short, the fact that a guy works out of his home shop or garage ...
Red

remember, microsoft, IBM, Ford, and Apple started in garages!!!!


jeffe

And Hewlett-Packard. In fact, reading Dave Packard's book, he was encouraged as a boy to do lathe work, built rockets, make crystal radios, etc. He talks about magazines and books encouraging that kind of hands-on learning being popular then and somewhat discouraged as "too dangerous" now.

Steve

any competent machinist can be a good gunsmith. conversely, a very large number of our "gunsmiths" are nothing more than screw turners and parts replacers. as mechanical devices go, most firearms rank somewhere above anvils and somewhere below drill presses in complexity. it amazes me the people i know who will rebuild car engines, work on their houses, airplanes, etc yet take a ruger m77 to a gunsmith to have a scope mounted.

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
From the postings on this forum it seems as if private gun building/modifying is something big in the US, Canada and perhaps other countries as well.

Some of the questions asked here re bolt strength, maximum pressure capabilities, etc. makes me wonder and the question that comes up in my mind is:
How safe and secure is this backyard gunsmithing?

Personally I would never buy a second hand rifle in a country where this type of backyard gun building takes place on a large scale. One would never know what you get and when such a rifle can blow up in your face!

How do you guys feel about this?

Nothing is safe.
The more ignorant you are, the more afraid of the unknown.

You could learn more and begin quantifying the risk.
It may make you feel foolish.
I have been "backyard gunsmithing" for a long time, and your post seems foolish to me.
Or is it just a troll, to which I have foolishly responded?

Springtrap. You seem to know alot more about regulations than you know about guns. I suggest you take your thinly veiled critisim and leave Bubba be. Mark

Springtrap,

As far as RSA gun laws/regulations preventing Tikkas from blowing up.

I would guess any town in the US with more than 50 thousand poeple would have more tikka rifles than in all of RSA so your regulations don't carry much water as far as preventing them from blowing up.

You seem to be very proud of regulations. Most of us in this contry are proud of Winchester, Remington, Savage and so on, the right to bear arms and work on our guns in our backyards or kitchen table if we so choose.

That same regulation mind set pretty much cost the people of Canada the right to own handguns.

You'll find a whole bunch of guys on this forum with no formal training that can work on a gun and do pretty good work.

Personally I would definitely think twice before I bought a no name rifle. It would have to be a ridiculous deal and also checked out by a trusted gunsmith.

as dirty harry said in one movie "a man's gotta know his limitations" and if you're not able to make qualitative assessments on your own of mechanical devices then you've little recourse but to let someone else do it for you.

Most of the guys on this board are quite capable of 'checking out' their own guns. Mark

bulldog563, here's you a classic example. a coworker bought a 1916 someone had tried to convert to 7.62x39 with one of the kits floating around. paid virtually nothing for it so is out no money. bolt wouldn't close on a loaded chamber. took it to a "gunsmith" another coworker just worships. this stupid git kept it 3 months, did nothing to it, and gave it back to him. was going to charge him but my buddy refused to pay him for doing nothing.

anyway, brought it to my house to look over. what we found was breech end of bbl ground off exposing abt 1/2" of ctg case and fwd scope base hole drilled all the way thru into the chamber. lucky bolt wouldn't close as it'd have been a live grenade.

it took me less than 10 minutes to yank the barrel and discover all this (other things wrong as well) where one of your professionals kept it 3 months and gave it back to the owner w/o any sort of warning.

you go trust your professionals. i'll trust my own judgement, thanks very much. like i said "...limitations...".

customstox:

Unfortunately no link on SABS's web site to the info. However, got info via fax from SABS today.

Follow this link SABS.

Apologies for different languages, but you should understand figure work.
Tests are done at 130% of max.

PS A friend hosts this page with info for me and it will be taken off after a few days, sorry.

springtrap,
i have to ask.. and not to start a fight....

what is your point to this? If it is "the US needs more regulation" then the answer you will get is NO...

if it is "guns are safer when modified in RSA than the US" .. great, nice opinion, but make that a statement rather than a rhtorical question

jeffe