Sorry if this is off topic - and I'm leaving names out, but really need some advice here.

Earlier this year, a Precision Shooting "published article" gunsmith left his current employer and apparently formed a partnership with another fellow - who together are current PS advertisers.

Anyway, it seemed like he was looking for work, and his earlier article interested me - so I sent him a live varmint project, a 700 action for truing and sleeving, a Shilen barrel to fit, McMillan stock for fitting and bedding, and a Jewell trigger(HVR). All of the parts, except the action, brand new....

After about two months, it shows back up - shipped in the same hard case that I shipped all the parts in.

The first thing I notice - the safety lever on the Jewell trigger is tweaked over and bounces and rattles all over the place.

Next - I try to open the bolt, and its GRITTY - it literally grated when I pulled it back. The action, the interior of the bolt body, and the firing pin spring are caked in SAND.



I took the action out of the stock - there was sand all over the action, and to top it all off, the inletting looks like it was done with a air chisel, and there was CLAY filling the air pockets left in the bedding job(sand was embedded into it).



Once I get it clean(windex, shooters choice and CLP), I notice the rough finish of the bolt bearing inserts(will readily catch your nail on the load surfaces), and the jagged gaps at their joints.







I lightly lubed the bearing surfaces, and made sure the action was clean and lubed, the bolt still grates when locking into battery(I suspect the rough machining on the bushings).

The counterbore they left on the bolt face for their live center. I did fire it...look at the primer that swaged back into the firing pin hole....





So, I send the gunsmith an email with explicit pictures of each of the concerns, who promptly responds that his "partner" did the work, and he needs to watch him closer.....send back the rifle.

More than 120 days later, after my emails/voicemails, and even registered letters went unanswered(letters were returned "unclaimed" from the USPS), the rifle showed back up on my doorstep - as far as I can tell untouched from the condition I returned it in - no correspondence included.

Of course, the company is in a different state than I - but I absolutely have never had this kind of experience with ANY company involved in all the shooting sports. Maybe I'm being too picky, comparing this companies work to those that I've dealt with previous - but this is unreal.

Has anybody else had similar concerns, and if so - what was your final recourse?

I am no gunsmith, but everyone of my bedding jobs look better than that.

I personally would like to know this butcher's name so that I can avoid him in the future.

Based on your story and accompanying photo's, there is no excuse for such shitty work from anyone in the business. You might want to begin gathering all copies of your correspondence, cancelled checks, and phone logs in preparation for possible legal action.

As much as I despise some ambulance chasing attorney's, they are a necessary evil when it comes to navigating the halls of the justice system.

You might also begin to think about warning others who might be inclined to use his services by posting his name and his business. The worse thing you can do is to do nothing.

I agree with posting the "gunsmith's" name, or should I say the butcher's name. It seems you gave him every fair chance to make it right and nothing was done.
It is so hard anymore to find someone you can trust to work on you guns, that maybe there should be a place where people can list their experiences, good and bad, as to help other members and visitors to this site.

Talk about lack of quality control! It looks to me like someone does not take much pride in their work which is to bad since you, I assume, paid money for the work. I have never had anything like this ever happen to myself, but have you never thought about some legal recourse? My experience in this area is extremely limited, but I would like to know if there is any protection, some kind, for the consumer. I would almost be tempted to think that it is NOT fit for a particular purpose since you are having your primers swag back. I know that it would make me a little nervous to use it as is. Just my two cents worth...

I think I’ve seen their Ads; “Jerry’s Kids Gunsmithing!â€

Just a guess, but it sounds like he went out business. Probably went back to flipping burgers

Terry

i also believe at this point you expose the business. you gave them a chance to make right a wrong and they didn't. it comes back to the issue of being a proffesional because of advertising in a valid publication. consumers trust what they see and read, the more legitimate the publication, the more the consumer believes in the information. the fault lies in the fact that the publication is just getting advertising dollars not endorsing the product or service.

Huh, they just deleted this EXACT same post for advice at Benchrest.com , anybody wonder where their advertising dollars are coming from:


http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=213706#post213706

Hey Fireball was this a brand new action? I bought a new Remington VSSF a few years ago and the bolts was loaded with sand just like that right out of the box. That was real promising to say the least. This work is still really bad though. That really sucks to have this stuff happen, one more reason I try and do everthing I can myself. Nobody to blame then.

Joe

It was a used 700 action that I had for a couple of years.

The sand was supposedly residue from where they blasted the bolt and the action prior to doing their "Duracoat" treatment. You can see how well it held up by looking at the bolt around the bearings(less than 40 bolt cycles by my estimation).

Looks like sh!... er SAND...

I won't be deleting this thread (unless it get's pissy) , so go ahead


jeffe

Why would you delete it at all? If gettin "pissy" is your criteria for deleting threads, you'd best get after it. You have alot of work to do.

Chuck

Chuck,
the point of that is that this thread won't be deleted HERE... if we stay anything like reasonablly ON Topic... that's kinda what mods do.

it's always a shame that tone doesn't come over the internet well... I was laughing when I posted that... the rifle looks like CRAP and there is that he's tried to have it fixed..

no resolve, and no point in letting someone else make the same mistakes


jeffe

Have you contacted P.S. Mag. with your complaint. If nothing else it might keep any more of their ads from being published in an otherwise decent magazine. [my opinion]

I'm thinking of writing an article, about how "Not" to go about having a custom rifle built....and submitting it to PS.

At least tell us what state they are in. I would hate to give those guys any of my money!

when all else fails... small claims court.

help us out on this company, we could be next!!

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
Sorry if this is off topic - and I'm leaving names out, but really need some advice here.

You know, considering the time, effort, and money you've expended at this point, I think you're doing the rest of us a disservice by not coughing up a name.

You've stated all of the facts and avoided making any wild accusations. The time has come to state a name.

These hacks wouldn't be in Texas by chance?

I would mail the pictures to PS and a short note of explanition in the same tone as here.
You gave them two chances to do the job correctly which is more than most would have done after seeing this.I would give it to a gunsmith to tear down and document the problems.I would also talk to a lawyer and see where you stand then decide what to do.

Good luck and take it easy,
Glenn

fireball,

It's real simple, just tell us:

a. this is what I wanted/paid for
b. this is what I got
c. this guy did the work

You'll be doing a lot of guys a great service.

Precision Fuckups shouldn't be featured advertisers in Precision Shooter.

quote:

who together are current PS advertisers

Doesn't sound like they went out of business if they are still spending advertising dollars!

I'll bet they fell into the 'take more work than can be handled' and QC went out the window. That and failed partnerships (guys that can't get along any more) seem to do in more small businesses than any other.

fireball168
one of us

Posted 12 December 2005 22:52
Huh, they just deleted this EXACT same post for advice at Benchrest.com , anybody wonder where their advertising dollars are coming from:


http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=213706#post213706
Posts:

Fireball You should post why Wilbur did this and what he was willing to do to help you -lot of good people over there.

Please tell us who it is or just PM me if you don't want to post it!

The company I sent it to is now out of business, the fellow who did the work was apparently just acquitted of felony theft charges a week ago Monday, and just got out of jail...charged by his former employer(the guy who taught him the business...and a reputable gunsmith).

I've been advised that they could do more damage $$$ to me at this point(legally), than I could ever get out of them, so I'm leaving it alone - unless I see his name come up elsewhere.

The rifle parts are scattered to the four winds at the moment, I'm trying to salvage what I can.

Jewell offered to fix the trigger for a little bit of nothing. I sent the bolt to Greg Tannel for bushing the firing pin hole - and asked him to think about re-bushing the bolt body(if he won't do it, I'm going to do it myself). The interior of the action, and the machining on the lugs, etc. actually looked pretty good once I got the barrel off of it. I'm going to chuck up the barrel and see what kind of chamber runout I get sometime this weekend.

Whatever "Duracoat" they claimed to put on this action, took LITERALLY less than 30 seconds for me to peel off the entire action and bolt with my used up 80 grit glass bead blast media(at 40 psi). I suspect it was closer to spray paint.

Its really pretty sad, I usually only send work out that I haven't tried myself - as I consider it education. I make some measurements, take some pictures, before and after - and look for the improvement.

Looking at the work this jackleg put out, it was just money pissed away.

This guy was in Arkansas, his former employer belives he jumped state, so lord only knows where he is at now. Ask for references. Pay with a credit card.

As for the Wilbur on benchrest.com, they've never really allowed "consumer" issues. He deleted my first post, the same one that I posted here, so I started another without the pictures. One gunsmith in particular(who didn't see the pictures), started raising hell about how I probably f-ed it up. Anyway, Wilbur gave me his phone number, told me what he knew(which was considerable), and I realized there were those in much worse shape than I(rifles and parts missing, gone, not returned, etc.).

As an after-thought, it reminded me of a thread I posted on Benchrest central about P-S magazine and how I thought quality was going downhill and way over everybody's head. What I go was a tongue lashing from the editorial board of PS. Here:

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25918&highlight=Jkob

I subscribed to PS for about ten years. Learned a lot from some articles, but discovered some were BS. In the run up to the 2004 election the Editor used his bully pulpit to tell all his gentle readers that the President was evil, along with all Republicans. Talk about not taking your audience into consideration. I sort of let my subscription expire the; keep that crap on the political forum, eh?
About six years ago, Black Star barrels bought a lot of advertising space. For two or three issues in a row there were pimp-o-rama articles about the second coming of Christ as expressed in the advent of Black Star barrels.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by crowrifle:
I am no gunsmith, but everyone of my bedding jobs look better than that.

I personally would like to know this butcher's name so that I can avoid him in the future.

Mine too! Plus my bolts don't look like that one, nor do my fired primers.......

GUNBUTCHERS INCORPORATED!! (I've heard of using diamond dust to polish an action up, but SAND is a bit on the crude side for such work.....)

quote:

I've been advised that they could do more damage $$$ to me at this point(legally), than I could ever get out of them, so I'm leaving it alone - unless I see his name come up elsewhere.

IF you were committing libel or slander, perhaps! But the truth is an absolute defense against charges of either, and you have the results of their "work" to prove your case!!

Yep, you're right...but the "evidence", being the assembled rifle is now gone.

That counter suit liable BS sounds like horse shit.

I know the feeling . I have been threatened to be sued for fileing a mechanics lein for not being payed for contracting work i have done.

These assholes wont pay for concrete work and materials supplyed on their property under contract, so you file a lien against the property. Then they turn around and sue you for blemishing there property title on top of ripping you of for not paying work and materials. Its a scam .

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
I've been advised that they could do more damage $$$ to me at this point(legally), than I could ever get out of them, so I'm leaving it alone - unless I see his name come up elsewhere.

C'mon fireball, send me a PM and whisper the name to me. I won't say a word...

In response to this discussion I have developed a small application that gives users the ability to review and critique gunsmith's work. Here is the URL: http://jimmace.com/main/default.aspx?c=gunsmith&smith_c=smithreview

This application is still in its Beta edition, so if some of you could put it through its paces and gave me your feedback (PM me please) I will try to do the best I can to create a top-notch application that will be of service to us all.

Working as a mechanic for half of my life, sometimes you just need to warn people about the butchers. I saw in a national truck mag about some customizer in town. They wrote that he was a leading innovater in lower bodys, channeling frames, etc etc. The guy worked out of his MOMMY'S garage and in the front yard. Good work?? Or not. There is a shop down the street from me that would be out of business if they were not working on COMEBACKS. They did work on a 68 vette for $40000. Total botch job. Had to rebuild the motor before they even gave it back!!

Bottom line: get a referral.
Also tell people about the shit jobs. There is no libel suit for the TRUTH.

Jim Kobe, please explain where the tongue lashing part is.

There are a bunch of fellows on Benchrest.com that are pretty tight - that either own a piece of the action at PS, or are regular article contributors.

If you watch that site for awhile, you'll notice that if somebody strays from whatever they like, do, drive, whatever - they're shit.

I received a couple of emails over my bashing of this gunsmith(again without names) on benchrest.com, and one public bashing that it was all me....because this guy had written an article for PS, he surely was infallible, and I somehow f-ed up this rifle.

As for Jim's comment...

If you've read Calfee's articles, they are PAINFUL. Apparently the guy builds some hellacious rifles, but I've never handled or shot one - but his ramblings are difficult for me to follow, and about three times as long as they need to be. The content of the magazine is for crap anymore, unsure of why I keep my subscription.

Don't worry about those poofters over there.
There is a lot more give and take here.

No matter what hobby or vocation we have in life, there are always plenty of self appointed demi-gods to deal with.

Last week some specialist told me I was just a know/no-nothing general practitioner. "So what", I replied, "that's not what your wife called me last night when you were in surgery."

Remember the character Kartman from the show South Park? As in, "Kartman your just a fat f**k". They got the idea for that character from one of the PS writers. Guess who??????

I have a lot of interest in BR rifles. I have no interest in the BR site. Occasionaly I will lurk, if I am looking up something technical, but its definately not a site I want to intereact on.

Best part of the site is the links in the beginning to all the parts and vendors, good single source on a lot of hard to find bits and pieces.