We all remember what the Obongo Regime attempted to do last year (through the State and Commerce Departments) with respect to the "exportation" of personal firearms from the US to another country for hunting/sporting purposes. That created one hell of a firestorm and we were able to beat-back those gun-control regulations.

Now, the same bunch in Washington is at it again. This time they are attempting to turn your local gunsmith into a "weapons manufacturer." If he so much as threads your barrel for a new brake or machines a broken replacement part, he becomes a manufacturer, and he must purchase an expensive new federal license (well over a couple thousand dollars). If he does that sort of "manufacturing work" without the necessary license ... it is a felony!

I have decided to post this here, rather than in the Gunsmithing Section, simply because I hope it will get more attention here.

We all use ... sooner or later ... the services of a gunsmith. These new regulations will reduce the number of gunsmiths and ultimately drive-up prices for all of us.

But, it is more than that ... it is just another component of the well-oiled plan by the Obongo Regime to limit and control our gun-rights ... just this time it is through the back door ... by putting the squeeze on the gunsmiths.

Here is a more thorough discussion of the issues, with the relevant rules/regulations:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...hp/topics/11341149/1

https://www.nraila.org/article...xecutive-gun-control

While not all of us get to take our firearms out of the Country on a hunting trip, just about everyone of us at some time will use the services of a good gunsmith. If this crap stands ... it may be a lot harder to find a good gunsmith in the future.

Judging by the lack of response to this post so far, and minimal response to my post below on the same topic, it would seem that this is just going to "slide by" . Personally I can't understand why the firearms community isn't just freaking out over this. It will likely cause me to close my small business of 37 years, along with many others. My alternative would be to significantly raise pruces, not a desirable tbing.
As you stated, the small to medium shops are an integral part of the firearms industry. Lacking those, it won't be possible to get a lot of work or repair done, and the effect will be to render a lot of firearms less than useful, same as denying a ready ammunition supply.
I think people's first reaction I'd to think that export regulations don't affect them, hence the tiny response here. But when this thing finally sticks and the aftereffects occur, I think everyone will be most unpleasantly surprised..

Well ... I originally posted this in the Africa Big Game Hunting Forum, simply to get the issue out to as many eye-balls as possible.

The Grand Poobah (aka Moderator) decided in his infinite wisdom to move the posting here, where it will certainly get very little attention or traction.

There is a similar posting in the Political Forum here (which few will see as well):

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3811043/m/8961024322

I'm just not sure if people have let this sink in yet. Some atf field agents have been enforcing this for a few years, some never did. This is bad for the industry as a whole. I pray the smiths I use will not close up shop, but I have not talked to any yet. Overall this is going to reduce our smith options and drive up prices. You think you have long waits now for service, wait till you have half as many guys out there. Like I said, they are attempting to get us with the death of a thousand cuts

One thing for sure iS that shop rates and project cost will have to rise to cover the annual permit cost for the permit.

Soon the O-1 license will no longer apply for general Gun-smithing. If the ATF requires you to get an O-7 classification on your next renewal expect having to acquire an Itar permit.

It's just another expense of doing business. Lucky me

And pay FET of 11% to the Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB).

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
One thing for sure iS that shop rates and project cost will have to rise to cover the annual permit cost for the permit.

Soon the O-1 license will no longer apply for general Gun-smithing. If the ATF requires you to get an O-7 classification on your next renewal expect having to acquire an Itar permit.

It's just another expense of doing business. Lucky me

Another point should be made. In the notice, it states that ATF and DDTC laws and regulations are separate entities and may not necessarily relate to one another. So whether or not a gunsmith has an 01 or an 07 is immaterial to whether or not he needs to register. An 01 engaging in one of the enumerated "manufacturing" activities is required to register. Presumably before engaging in any more. And just ONE act of manufacturing attaches the requirement. Seems like there is no way out.

http://pmddtc.state.gov/compli...ers%20(Publish).pdf2

quote:

Originally posted by ftbt:
Well ... I originally posted this in the Africa Big Game Hunting Forum, simply to get the issue out to as many eye-balls as possible.

The Grand Poobah (aka Moderator) decided in his infinite wisdom to move the posting here, where it will certainly get very little attention or traction.

There is a similar posting in the Political Forum here (which few will see as well):

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3811043/m/8961024322

well, i didn't move it - but it is a gunsmithing post, and should be here.

this is much like the ARF requiring a manf license for people making custom rifles on ALREADY manf'ed guns - their regs say the receiver is the serialized part - it's already made - makes little sense

Has anyone here with an FFL been contacted officially by any government entity informing them of this requirement?

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
One thing for sure iS that shop rates and project cost will have to rise to cover the annual permit cost for the permit.

Soon the O-1 license will no longer apply for general Gun-smithing. If the ATF requires you to get an O-7 classification on your next renewal expect having to acquire an Itar permit.

It's just another expense of doing business. Lucky me

You need to read the document! ANYONE who makes barrels, stocks and many other parts will need to register under ITAR. A gunsmith the fits barrels from blanks, threads muzzles for breaks/cans, glass beds, makes any part, does any machine work and has a 01 Dealers license will need to register and pay the fee, too! Only the "parts changer" and bluing/finishing shops will be exempt from ITAR registration fees.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ftbt:
Well ... I originally posted this in the Africa Big Game Hunting Forum, simply to get the issue out to as many eye-balls as possible.

The Grand Poobah (aka Moderator) decided in his infinite wisdom to move the posting here, where it will certainly get very little attention or traction.

There is a similar posting in the Political Forum here (which few will see as well):

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3811043/m/8961024322

well, i didn't move it - but it is a gunsmithing post, and should be here. ...

No ... Open your eyes. It is a post about gun control. Gunsmiths just happen to be the tool they are using this time to further put the screws to us gun owners. This issue NEEDS to get exposure and it certainly WILL NOT get it here.

So is there someplace to post this where it will get maximum exposure? It is certainly far more than just a narrowly constructed "gunsmithing" issue, and it will affect everybody in some way.... it needs to get to everybody possible...

quote:

Originally posted by ftbt:
...well, i didn't move it - but it is a gunsmithing post, and should be here. ...

No ... Open your eyes. It is a post about gun control. Gunsmiths just happen to be the tool they are using this time to further put the screws to us gun owners. This issue NEEDS to get exposure and it certainly WILL NOT get it here.[/QUOTE]

If you are going to quote me, sir, quote the entire thought

quote:

well, i didn't move it - but it is a gunsmithing post, and should be here.

this is much like the ARF requiring a manf license for people making custom rifles on ALREADY manf'ed guns - their regs say the receiver is the serialized part - it's already made - makes little sense

Please don't get so lost in "being right" that you fail to recognize those that are AGREEING with you

Slivers
I have read documents regarding this subject until I'm blue in the face for quite some time now. I have discussed the subject of Itar at length with my attorney, with BATF agents in the SLC office and at length with the State Dept. office in charge of this area, section and code. While the BATF has only a reciprocal sister relationship with the Stat Dept. they can independently cross reference any license holder at any time is they so desire for information or enforcement matters. This is an evolving situation that began in the Reagan administration but was not enforced on the gun-smithing level unless you where opening making articles of War, "Tactical" Optics or exporting anything that could be used on a battle field.

It now appears the parameters and classifications for those requiring Itar permits is now CAST IN STONE in regard to the Gunsmithing/Manufacturing arena. I have been in the trade long enough to remember when I was only required to have an O-1 license to make stocks, install barrels make, scope mounts etc. That of course has changed as has the 11% excise tax requirements of which I paid in quarterlies until the 50 gun per year exemption was implemented. Like Fish riding cycles this is an evolving animal.

To date a lot of how you are classified regarding whether you're required to have a O-1 or O-7 is based on the interpretations of the BATF agent that oversees your operation in his or her region. I am aware of a number of Custom Gunmakers that do everything I do in regard to Rifle Making and are still operating under an O-1 classification. Sooner than later they will be required to have an O-7 and then comply with Itar as well if they want to remain operating.

Change is in the wind for sure and if you don't believe it then lets talk about this again in a year or two

Best
D'Arcy Echols

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso: ... Please don't get so lost in "being right" that you fail to recognize those that are AGREEING with you

Again ... you are missing my point. While you and I do AGREE, unless more of the members of this site are informed about what the Obongo Regime is attempting ... and "get their bowels in an uproar" ... this will just "slip-slide" right on through. Unfortunately, these posts will just languish in the back-waters of this site, since, really, how many members (based upon the daily views) read the Gunsmithing posts? Let's just say we have a difference of opinion as to how to "educate" as many members of this site with respect to what the Regime is now doing.

With this new set of regs you won't even have to be 07 FFL Licensed to be required to register under ITAR. It ecompasses 01 Licensees as well as some who would need no FFL at all.

I'm wondering just how many of the gunsmiths / gunmakers who post on here either have paid or will pay the fee and register with DDTC, and how many will throw in the towel. I'm having a hard time myself with the issue. I have a real hard time justifying it financially, but in the other hand I just don't want to knuckle under to the bastards and toss away something I've done and loved for 43 years....

Read it and weep:

https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/c...rmsManufacturers.pdf

I've read it. Done the weeping. I even posted a link to it on here somewhere. I've been to DDTC'S Web site and looked over the application form.
Next question is how many will register and pay versus how many will just call it quits. My guess is that the bigger dollar guys either have already registered and paid, or will shortly. Many of tge smaller guys will probably give it up.

write your congressman and senators. They can strip this from their authority to do so.

I've been upset about this since it came to my attention a few days ago. The line between gunsmith & manufacturer has been blurry for a long time. I remember sitting in a ACGG seminar put on by a couple of ATF agents in Reno several years back. They couldn't even agree with each other about what what constituted manufacturing. This new policy just solidified the gray line.

I don't know exactly what I'm going to do. I'm not going to pay for another license. I'll stay the hell away from the activities that trigger this. It's not the money I object to, it's the taxes, regs & reporting that go with it. It's having another government agency in my back pocket that pisses me off. I'm an old, crabby, one-man shop and I'm tired.

I'll spend the free time that gives me explaining to the customers I turn down why I won't/can't do the work. I'll preach on it, for all the good it'll do. If I sound beat down, it's because I am.

Mark, that echoes my sentiments exactly. I too am just old and beaten down. And I've never felt more so than the last couple of days.

ISS, I would contact my senators, but they are ( independent /Democrat) Angus King, and RINO Susan Collins. I would expect no help there at all.

I read the .gov is proposing ITAR to apply to most gunsmiths.

It is about 2K per year.

Not right, but not the end of the world either, since gunsmiths can and will just pass this along to their customer. Or just say screw it and hang it up.

https://blog.princelaw.com/201...n-itar-registration/

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I read the .gov is proposing ITAR to apply to most gunsmiths.

It is about 2K per year.

Not right, but not the end of the world either, since gunsmiths can and will just pass this along to their customer. Or just say screw it and hang it up. ...

Well ... I guess that is one way to look at it. You are right, "not the end of the world" ... and I suppose neither was the "export license" the government tried to impose on us last year to take our rifles out of the country ... "not the end of the world." And ... the proposed ban on green-tip 5.56 ammo ... "not the end of the world" or the "bullet tax" and "gun tax" that Seattle will be imposing ... "not the end of the world" ... or the fact that in January 2017 you have to go through a background check in California every time you buy a box of ammo and you will not be able to buy ammo on-line unless it is delivered to a FFL ... "not the end of the world."

I am not a gunsmith, so I have no dog in this fight. But ... I find it to be fundamentally wrong to make a whole class of hard working, righteous individuals into felons, UNLESS they get down on one knee and kiss the ring of the government and pay what amounts to a TAX in order continue their trade.

I also think it is rather obvious that the Democraps in Washington, California and Seattle have a well-thought out anti-gun / anti-second amendment agenda. They plan to tax and regulate guns. And, if we allow them to continue to succeed in their plans, sooner or later, IT WILL BE THE END OF THE WORLD for us gun owners.

quote:

Originally posted by ftbt:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I read the .gov is proposing ITAR to apply to most gunsmiths.

It is about 2K per year.

Not right, but not the end of the world either, since gunsmiths can and will just pass this along to their customer. Or just say screw it and hang it up. ...

Well ... I guess that is one way to look at it. You are right, "not the end of the world" ... and I suppose neither was the "export license" the government tried to impose on us last year to take our rifles out of the country ... "not the end of the world." And ... the proposed ban on green-tip 5.56 ammo ... "not the end of the world" or the "bullet tax" and "gun tax" that Seattle will be imposing ... "not the end of the world" ... or the fact that in January 2017 you have to go through a background check in California every time you buy a box of ammo and you will not be able to buy ammo on-line unless it is delivered to a FFL ... "not the end of the world."

I am not a gunsmith, so I have no dog in this fight. But ... I find it to be fundamentally wrong to make a whole class of hard working, righteous individuals into felons, UNLESS they get down on one knee and kiss the ring of the government and pay what amounts to a TAX in order continue their trade.

I also think it is rather obvious that the Democraps in Washington, California and Seattle have a well-thought out anti-gun / anti-second amendment agenda. They plan to tax and regulate guns. And, if we allow them to continue to succeed in their plans, sooner or later, IT WILL BE THE END OF THE WORLD for us gun owners.

The feds are so much up into my business I guess I expect them to screw me, so it is hard to get too worked up when they go after another profession for a change. As Bruce Willis said in Die Hard, "Welcome to the party, pal!" Not trying to be a jerk or malicious about it, seriously. More .gov is what we get, whether we want it or not. If anything, the more folks the .gov gets riled up, the better chance we have at getting rid of some of the burden. Now the avg guy that wants to get his rifle bedded before deer season gets to feel the pain of a overreaching gov, not just those that like evil 'assault rifles, etc that have been the traditional target of the leftist gun grabbers.



Yeah, $2200 is a chunk of money, but in the end, it will just be passed along to the consumer, i.e. me and you in the form of another fee. There are 2080 hours in the typical work year, so if your smith does a 5 hour job on your rifle, you are gonna get dinged for a $5-10 ITAR fee.

From my conversations with my local ATF guys, this is the agenda they have been pushing for a long time. A few compliance inspections ago my local agent informed me that it was ATF's position that re-barreling to a different caliber or any other substantial change (undefined) in a customers firearm was indeed manufacturing.

Just repeating what he told me. I was one that quit the game. So far there doesn't see to be much of a push on BP or antiques but I can see that coming soon.

quote:

Please don't get so lost in "being right" that you fail to recognize those that are AGREEING with you

jeff you are now, and always have been a bit smarter than the rest of this horn hooking herd-- me being the biggest jackass in it--so well, for me well it's easy to see

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear: ... The feds are so much up into my business I guess I expect them to screw me, so it is hard to get too worked up when they go after another profession for a change. As Bruce Willis said in Die Hard, "Welcome to the party, pal!" Not trying to be a jerk or malicious about it, seriously. More .gov is what we get, whether we want it or not. If anything, the more folks the .gov gets riled up, the better chance we have at getting rid of some of the burden. Now the avg guy that wants to get his rifle bedded before deer season gets to feel the pain of a overreaching gov, not just those that like evil 'assault rifles, etc that have been the traditional target of the leftist gun grabbers.

Yeah, $2200 is a chunk of money, but in the end, it will just be passed along to the consumer, i.e. me and you in the form of another fee.

I agree the "government" has its collective nose(s) in way too many businesses. That is a given. I don't know what your business is, but the gunsmiths have a decent argument that their business is protected by the Second Amendment. Few, very few, businesses can claim a protection under The Bill of Rights. If your business has some sort of constitutional protection, and if the "Feds are so much up into [your] business" then that is also a shame. Important difference.

Again it is not about "the money" or how the average gunsmith will amortize the cost of the license or pass it on to us. It is about our rights slowly being eroded and chipped away. What will it be tomorrow or the day after ...?

Again, I ask, has anyone here with an FFL been contacted by the government to inform them of this requirement? I've had an 07 license for close to ten years and no one from the government has ever brought this up to me.

I've never been contacted either, and I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of us have not. No contact, no informational notice or instructions in the mail, nothing. Even though this is State Dept versus ATF, you can bet that they trade information and the State Dept knows who we are. Not providing information imho, allows them to jump all over us (or not ) at will and then claim that "ignorance of the law is no excuse." i.e. they have no obligation to tell us anything, but we have an obligation to comply nonetheless. This reads like a novel by Kafka....

H47, holding a FFL is a matter or public record. I can pull that up on the ATFE web site in 2 minutes. Company name, address, clasification of license (01, 06, 03, 07).

Easier for them to find you not in compliance and shut you down if they don't inform you. Some old saying: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Sounds like the ATF way to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Again, I ask, has anyone here with an FFL been contacted by the government to inform them of this requirement? I've had an 07 license for close to ten years and no one from the government has ever brought this up to me.

I just posted something in the Big Bore forum about this. I recently acquired two Ruger RSMs and took them to my local gunsmith for bedding, tang relief and recoil pad replacement. He is a trusted gunsmith to me and has done most of my work over the years. He called me Sunday and said come and pick up my rifles as he was shutting down. First I heard of it, but I certainly got an earful when I picked them up last night. He explained that it was not only the cost of the license/permit, but the increased oversight and increased insurance costs (4x). He estimated this would cost him $8,000 to $10,000 and he was not up for it. Turns out none of our local gunsmiths have this status and none are going to obtain it. They are all shutting down. So now I can't have a recoil pad installed, trigger adjusted, etc., without sending my guns off. Any of you fine gentlemen up for a small job like this?

I am convinced of one thing now - vote Trump!

Is there any possibility that ACGG or a special purpose entity could obtain the license and then arrange an agency relationship with gunsmiths, so that they would be an agent of the licensed entity?

quote:

Originally posted by Custom:

I am convinced of one thing now - vote Trump!

I am convinced that no republican administration will reverse these rules, and I don't think Trump is pro-Gun. Like Obama he will say anything to get elected, along will all the stupid things he says that are going to keep him from getting elected. I'm holding my nose and voting republican once again, but I'm not pro-Trump, just ant-liberal. Trump will do nothing on this.

Now we can see, re Custom ' s post above, why this isn't just a narrow issue for gunsmiths only. Multiply that x nationwide, and you'll see the real effects. If you can't get your gun fixed, sure 2A sez you can "keep and bear it," but a gun that won't work is of no use. Yes, this is a broad 2A issue that will affect everybody.

quote:

Originally posted by H47:
Now we can see, re Custom ' s post above, why this isn't just a narrow issue for gunsmiths only. Multiply that x nationwide, and you'll see the real effects. If you can't get your gun fixed, sure 2A sez you can "keep and bear it," but a gun that won't work is of no use. Yes, this is a broad 2A issue that will affect everybody.

Agree completely. Inch by inch they are chipping away at our rights. If they can't get legislation through, then by back door, seemingly innocuous, executive order.

I thought maybe since this was State Dept. instead of BATF that they might not have the same requirements as FFL

It is the State Department and it is a Policy that the administration apparently intends to enforce. However, the only way the State Department can get involved is by using ITAR.

ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) are export control regulations. They are designed to help ensure defense related technology and military articles do not get into "the wrong hands". Using ITAR to regulate DOMESTIC firearms with technology over 100 years old and to regulate repair and alteration of those firearms is more than a stretch.

This is a huge, oppressive overreach by the government to use ITAR regulations outside the purpose for which they were written and for articles that are not intended for export. Further, ALL export of firearms is already covered under other laws and regulations, including applicable requirements for permits and licenses.

I am sure we will see more than one lawsuit filed against this overreach. It will probably happen soon. I expect the courts to issue one or more injunctions preventing the State Department from implementing these measures until one of more cases come to court. That's the way it went down with Obama's illegal Executive Order regarding amnesty for illegal aliens and that's the way it will go down for this.

Even if Hillary is elected this will be stopped by the courts. That could take a couple of years or more. If Trump is elected, I believe, this will go away with the stroke of a pen in his first 30 days.

If someone has a sample email or letter they have sent their senators or representatives on this, please post it here and that will make it easier for lazy people like me to follow suit.

Anyone heard if the NRA has started any communications on this?

Edit:

Article from the NRA-ILA.