Well maybe the at is one more reason to know what you're doing when installing one or just go fulblown and install the 98 style extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Hello Wespac,
People have been installing Sako style extractors on Remington bolt guns since the 1970's. Well before Al Gore invented the internet. The problem with Remington's safety/trigger dates back the previous generation of Rem. bolt guns, the M-721 which I believe was manufactured from 1948 to 1962. The problem did not come to a head until the late 1980's with a multitude of lawsuits. I Personally have experienced firing pin drops on both a M-721 and a M-700. It should be mentioned that both triggers were lightened by a VERY competant gunsmith. Both were set at 3 pounds.

On another subject Wespac, do not the snipers in the military go into the field with a spotter, who is carrying the usuall array of weaponry?? (M-4, M-14, etc.) Just a asking a question.

Yes, but before Al Gore, the word was spread mouth to mouth. Today, it's spread to a gazillion with a single stroke of the "enter" key.

I too have personally experienced firing pin drops myself. Every single one a result from either a lack or proper maintenance, the owner or friend of the owner tampering with the trigger without knowing what the hell he was doing, or a competent gunsmith who didn't know what the hell he was doing. If you are going to work on a trigger, you have to know the particular trigger.

And don't hunters in Africa go into the field with PH's backing them up and carrying the "usual array" of weaponry? Just answering the question.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
If you have seen a Sako extractor blow out of the raceway of a Remington, you better have your liability insurance paid up. You're gonna need it. This ain't heresay either.
Butch

I wonder if they would blow out the raceway any differently on a Sako rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
... or a competent gunsmith who didn't know what the hell he was doing.

I sure hope that was intended as a tongue in cheek comment!

quote:

Why do it? Stronger action, better trigger and better gas handling to name 3, or just to have something different.

1. Just to have something different. I'll buy that, not something I would do, but it's their money.

2. Better Trigger. Obviously this is debatable given all the other posts on this thread. And even if one were enamored with the Remington triggers I don't see this as a valid reason by itself. Wouldn't one be replacing the stock Remington trigger if you switched to a 3 position Winchester style safety? If you really liked all the features of the Winchester but didn't like the trigger, wouldn't it be far easier just to upgrade the trigger?

3. Stronger action. How much stronger is the Remington over the Winchester? I didn't think it was enough to make a significant difference.

4. Better gas handling. I'll pass on that debate...

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

Yes, but before Al Gore, the word was spread mouth to mouth. Today, it's spread to a gazillion with a single stroke of the "enter" key.

I too have personally experienced firing pin drops myself. Every single one a result from either a lack or proper maintenance, the owner or friend of the owner tampering with the trigger without knowing what the hell he was doing, or a competent gunsmith who didn't know what the hell he was doing. If you are going to work on a trigger, you have to know the particular trigger.

And don't hunters in Africa go into the field with PH's backing them up and carrying the "usual array" of weaponry? Just answering the question.[/QUOTE]
_______________________________________________



Every one of the malfunctions with the M-700/M-721 that I have spoken of in my post I have actually experienced ie. stuck cases in the chamber that were not extracted, firing pin drop when safety was released, gases coming back through the bolt into my eye from blown Remington 9&1/2 primers in Remington cases in the early 1980s era of manufacture. In response to your statement most hunters do know about Remington triggers, that is why they switch them out to either Jewells or Timney. Also they modify the extractors to a Sako style extractors. Some will even install a 3-position Winchester style safety. This is not from word of mouth but actual experiences such as mine.
As you have stated Remington actions need alot of maintenance/care. I personally do not think you could gum up a M-70 trigger if you tried. I own seven M-70's and do absolutely nothing to them in the form of maintenance. I am referring to the original M-70 style trigger setup not the new MOA triggers that are in production now.
As far as any of the M-70 extractors I have yet to do anything with them either, even their push feed bolts. No problems with extractions. The only problems I have had with the M-70s are with their barrels and case feeding of some of the WSM cartridges. Their barrels are VERY slow to break in and shoot good. Some never do but I've also had a Remington that never would shoot MOA. Again, a Rem. M-700 is a good rifle, they just need to be cared for alot more. I will say that Remington has much better quality control at it's plant than Winchester/FN has had .

You made an interesting comment about the PHs backing up a hunter in Africa. Although I have never been to Africa, I think you will find that almost all of them use a Controlled Round Feed actions of some type. Just cruise the Big Bore or African hunting forums. You might even want to post a poll there for the PHs.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
... or a competent gunsmith who didn't know what the hell he was doing.

I sure hope that was intended as a tongue in cheek comment!

Nope... I'm serious.

A "competent" gunsmith wouldn't simply back the spring screw off to reduce the trigger pull if he really knew what the potential consequences were of such a move in a system where the spring tension is the only thing holding the sear/connector in place against the finger lever, without taking measures to inform the client on how to properly maintain the weapon. Yet there are some "competent" gunsmiths out there that do just that. I've seen their work. I've corrected it.

It doesn't mean they are not "competent", just not at doing Remington triggers. You have to understand how the Remington trigger functions before you can successfully and "competently" clean up the pull. Of course it's up to the customer to maintain it. But he has to know how and that's what a competent gunsmith would do, he would provide instruction.

"Competent: having suitable or sufficient skill, knowledge, experience, etc., for some purpose; properly qualified"

If you do not know "what the hell you are doing" and you f**k up a job, you are by definition incompetent. Period, no debate!

It doesn't mean you are not qualified to be a gunsmith, it doesn't mean you are not competent in other areas, it means you are incompetent at that task.

We are all competent at something...

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
"Competent: having suitable or sufficient skill, knowledge, experience, etc., for some purpose; properly qualified"

If you do not know "what the hell you are doing" and you f**k up a job, you are by definition incompetent. Period, no debate!

It doesn't mean you are not qualified to be a gunsmith, it doesn't mean you are not competent in other areas, it means you are incompetent at that task.

We are all competent at something...

That is correct.

Just semantics... "Qualified" might have been a better choice of words.

Cheers

Wespac, I honestly think you could take a clean-oil free M-700 trigger that has been adjusted to even 4 pounds and get it dirty (you know like a hunter might do on a hunt in Alaska) and it could/would drop the firing pin. My point is; why even take the chance. If you are out by yourself that could pose a BIG problem.............if one lives to tell about it.

I won't pretend to have the definitive answer on Remington extractors.

I do find it odd though, that anyone should blame the rifle or its design when they intentionally use too hotly loaded ammo in it.

And having a gunsmith adjust a trigger is no more a guarantee that it will be done right than is having my sister do it...she who has never even fired a gun in her whole life of 67 years.

The operative phrase here is "knowledgeable of and experienced with the design"....and presumably its limits as well.

Besides which, skilled High Power shooters can pretty reliably hit 12" bullseyes at 1,000 yards with triggers which for many years were required to be a minimum pull of 4 lbs in some rifles, 3.3 lbs. in others, and 3 lbs in still others. A skilled trigger-puller is not limited by any of those weight requirements once he has some experience with the pull weight designated.

Back to the firestorm......

Hello A-Canuck,
Last year, in deer camp, a buddy of mine,was running low on some 22-250 ammo. (we were coyote hunting at the time) I wasn't around so he helped himself to some of mine. He shoots factory ammo in a Savage and I shoot partially- resized reloads (yes on the warm side) in my Winchester. He doesn't know anything about reloading,etc. Fortunately he never needed the ammo he got from me. When I got back to camp and learned what he had done, I explained to him what he could have been in for, as example a STUCK case in his rifle. Had he slammed one of my cases into his chamber and not been able to fully close the bolt due to a tighter chamber, he might have been done for a while. The point is dumb things do happen. As I have posted elsewhere, I have had factory ammo that were excessively hot. I have left ammo in the sun and shot them in the heat of battle. Why take a chance with a poor extractor design? Again, I have had M-700 extractors slip off of case rims.

Just couple of things to think about,

You are going to have to broach an extra .050 from the receiver to clear the extractor once the extractor is installed to the bolt.

You will also have to cut a semi circle broach relief at the end of the broach way; extractor side only, before you broach the lugway if you expect to break the chip of at the end of the lugway. otherwise you'll just pack the chips in on top of each other and you'll wind up with a mess.
Or you could get a wire shop to burn it out for you. If you go this route omit the broach relief too.

The interupeted cut of the ejection port may be a problem for the wire.
The wire people will know for sure.
Something to research.
May have to go solid electrode.

Either way you'll need the extra .050 on the extractor side of the lugway to clear the extractor.
My suggestion is get your bolt the way you want it first. Extractor fitted and ready for serivce.
Then measure the bolt with the extractor on it, this will give you an idea of how much extra room you will be needing. Add some working tolerance .010 to .015 beyond what the bolt with extractor measurements are.

There is a little more to this idea than meets the eye.

Q: is this possible A: yes it is.


question is, is it worth the time.

If failure is not an option. The answer is yes.

Classic barrel has an action that I know as the Remchester? It's round action with an integral recoil lug. It has a claw extractor.
It is a alternative to more expensive actions and has the claw extractor and controlled feed.


Timan

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Wespac, I honestly think you could take a clean-oil free M-700 trigger that has been adjusted to even 4 pounds and get it dirty (you know like a hunter might do on a hunt in Alaska) and it could/would drop the firing pin. My point is; why even take the chance. If you are out by yourself that could pose a BIG problem.............if one lives to tell about it.

Rae, I honestly think you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

The problems you've described fall under the heading of poor maintenance, not poor design. I agree that almost any bolt-locking 2-position safety is inherently dangerous by its very nature and is much more prone to pilot error than any 3-position one, but I also maintain that the Remington trigger problem can be traced directly to lack of proper maintenance, i.e. the rifles were dirty and improperly serviced.

BTW Remington has had at least 3 different triggers on their 7XX series, some with 2 blades and some with only 1 blade. Do you know the difference and can you tell us which one was giving the trouble?

And why the unreasonable prejudice against Alaska(grin)? It's not any dirtier than many other hunting areas and actually cleaner than most IMO. It IS colder there however and so anyone ignorant enough to use oil in their trigger mechanism will encounter problems, this is quite well-known to all experienced cold-weather hunters. Heck, even us ignurnt locally-oriented rednecks from the hot & humid South know that ANY oil in a trigger mechanism is kinda chancy, even down here!

If Remingtons were really as bad as you say, I don't think they'd still be expanding their holdings while Winchester has gone broke repeatedly. If 700s were really as bad as you say then folks wouldn't be buying them very much any more. You know, like the M70.....
Regards, Joe

I've thought about it some, and the only reasons I can figure Remington 700s sell is relating to ignorance of the buyer, (intentional & unintentional - for some ignorance is a choice) and perhaps a certain lack of some people in appreciation to attention to detail.

And the reason Remington can sell the inferior product with a better profit margin is because they are cheaper to mfg than the competition's superior product.

Otherwise, it's difficult to explain the phenomenon.

You can put chrome wheels on your Yugo, and call it a Porsche, and blog about its deficiencies and handling characteristics, and about upgrades, but when reminded that you’re driving a Yugo, after all, there is no need to be indignant if others find it all so obvious, transparent and amusing.

KB

In a nutshell, I personally don't like the new Wins because

1.Their bolt handles, bolt sleeves and cocking pieces are ugly when compared to the pre-64
2.Their triggers are (STILL!) only semi-adjustable
3.The push-feed extractors are weak
4.The controlled-feed actions don't handle gas well, at all
5.Reputation for inaccuracy when compared to Rems & Savages

I wouldn't want a new Rem 700 because

1.Stock design will kick you into next week
2.2-position safety sucks
3.Alloy and stamped parts
4.Rubber stocks are a joke

Don't like the pre-64 Win because

1.Receiver is relatively weak & brittle, design handles gas REALLY poorly
2.Trigger is only semi-adjustable
3.Bolt handle hits my index finger, tight grip hurts second finger on the big bores

I could go on. All of 'em have faults, all of 'em. We each have to decide which faults are acceptable to us and which must be corrected by custom work; that is, if whichever particular fault we hate can even be corrected at all!
Regards, Joe

about 5X what buying a new ruger would cost you

Until recently, I have been a fan of Rugers since the early 70s, but about a year ago I bought a 257 Roberts Hawkeye, and it's not accurate at all - not even close. I gave it away, but now I'm embarrassed to have given such an inaccurate rifle to a friend. What's odd is that I've had several inaccurate Rugers before, and for some reason it didn't sink in that poor accuracy isn't unusual with the Rugers I've shot. In fact, I can't remember one factory Ruger 77 that I've owned that I would classify as accurate (1" to 1.5" at 100 yds). I have one now with a Douglas barrel that appears to be accurate, but I've tested it only once for groups.

Just this week, I have decided to get rid of all my Rugers, except perhaps two with custom barrels, which are the two that the firing pin strikes the primer closest to the center. None of them are centered, but these two keepers are maybe acceptable since they are accurate anyway, surely because of the custom barrel.

This off-center firing pin strike is a new discovery for me. It has been there all along, but I just didn't pay attention to it. Now that I see it is common with Rugers, that is just unacceptable, no excuse is good enough, sloppy, etc. This problem can't be fixed, just like there are certain problems with the R 700 that just have no reasonable fix, IMO. SO, there are other good choices, which don't have the problems which I deem unacceptable. For example, so far, I've been happy with all the CZs I've owned or shot belonging to friends, which amounts to about a dozen.

KB

J.D.
I luv ya man-but really, you need to re-read my post. I never said they were bad rifles, just high maintenance and prone to some very distinct problems. Why take the chance? You can stick a M-70 trigger or even the whole action for that matter, in 90wt.oil, put in the freezer for 24 hours and it won't give you any problems except for MAYBE the firing pin. And even then anyone can field strip it and wipe the oil off the firing pin onto your pants leg, put it back together and go on hunting. ALL WITHOUT ANY TOOLS, ALL IN 30 SECONDS. Try that with a M-700 IN THE FIELD.

As far as the problem triggers in M-700, it was the trigger that you could not open the bolt with the safety in the on position. Then when you flipped the safety off, you had better have the cross hairs on what ever it is you want to shoot because there was a 10 to 20 percent chance the firing pin would drop (because of lack of a maintenance on a high maintenance item) and KABOOM! Sometimes, if you were lucky, the firing pin would fall gradually as you were closing the bolt and not set the primer off.

As far as the M-700 flatuating (spell) gas, I have learned the hard way to not feed the Rems. too many beans. I think the stuck cases in the chamber and the expulsion of gas right straight back in your eye is why predominately M-700 fans are so obsessed with early pressure signs on primers and case head expansion. No problems with a M-70 (and Winchester brass). Just watch for sticky bolt lift and slightly sticky cases in the chamber. But they always will come out using the bolt handle only.

J.D., if I was going to shoot competition I would definitely use a Rem. M-700 for my platform. They are cheap, easy to find, everyone makes triggers and other aftermarket parts for them, they can be made VERY accurate and you don't need a safety! ( that's a good thing for a M-700 by the way ) FYI; I don't believe any of that hog wash about the round action is better than the flat-bottom action. 90% of accuracy is the barrel - all things being equal. Remington and Savage have the best factory barrels. (How that happened, I'll never know?)

Yes, the pre-64 M-70s had brittle actions and the stocks were designed for open sights, not scopes (too much drop at the heel), and the Post '64s had some quaility control issues at certain points and they ARE more difficult to get accurate in alot of cases, not all but alot more than should be. I have several that are real good shooters and two that I've have given up on and had/having re-barreled. Triggers never a problem.
By the way, it's not Remington that is expanding their holdings. Cerabus is expanding their holdings. Cerabus, a Wall Street investment firm, owns Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster, DPMS and some other stuff like Chrysler Motor Co., at least until the Obama-nation came along.

I wasn't picking on Alaska I just thought more could relate to it than Africa. Insert Louisiana swamp in place of Alaska. ( No offense to you coon-asses, just trying to make a point)

Smile J.D., this is just a discussion. I still own two Rem. M-700s. One I love (7X57 Mountain Rifle) and one I HATE (22' bbl. in a ADL - POS). That gives me an idea. I need to have the barrel stamped ADL-POS

Have a good one man!

Ray60?
Thanks for enlightening me on the different rifles. Mr Steele has a little knowledge on this subject and it isn't clouded by him being a Ford or Chrysler guy. Just facts. You may want to pay a little attention to him.
Butch

Butch, this is the problem with the i-net. You can not see anothers facial expressions to see if they are having fun,being truthfull, lying, or being malicious, etc. I was actually having fun with this until now, and being truthful at the same time. The things I have posted here are THE HONEST TRUTH and HAVE ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO ME. Neither you or J.D. can change that. Whether or not you choose to believe it is your choice and potential problem. I do not want to see any firearms manufacturer have a bad go of things, ESPECIALLY in these political times of correctness. But facts are facts. I hope you never have these bad experiences as I did, but if you do, Hmmmh..... oh well! By the way, you- may want to pay a little attention to Duane Wiebe.

The G-Smith I spoke of in previous post is a quite well known in Texas and beyond and is a Remington fanatic like J.D. He has built many B.R. rifles as well as other types. He is a personal friend of mine and I do not drop names on the net.

I know all the reputable ones in Tex and have probably sold goods to them.
You can use the PM function.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I know all the reputable ones in Tex and have probably sold goods to them.
You can use the PM function.
Butch

Just did!
Respond

The most interesting part of this thread to me is that it reminds me of just how much experiences of individuals can vary... and how strong the opinions based on those relatively few experiences can be.

(That applies to all of us. Very few private individuals have enough experience to really make over-all pronouncements that are both objective and correct, regardless what they think.)

I note one person saying that though generally he much prefers M 70s, he would pick Remington 700s for competition use, Not me. For High Power competition I would take a Model 70 every time, preferably a pre-'64 based one. That's because I have used a bolt action for rapid fire competition, and found the M70 MUCH better ergonomically than the Remington for that use.

Matter of fact, it was in the 1990s when the first person EVER won the over-all Championship at Camp Perry with a Remington. It was an acquaintance of mine, Mitch Maxberry.

For BR competition, I would take a Remington action any day over a Model 70, but to tell the truth, having shot a lot of benchrest competion, I wouldn't use either. There are too many better (more precision) actions out there for BR use .

Another person noted a problem with Remington safeties dropping the firing pin when moved to the "off" position. I found that really interesting, as I have had two such failures in the field during my lifetime of prowling the hunting fields...one with a Model 70, the other with a Sako Vixen. I learned from that. Most all of the time when hunting with bolt actions, I now carry them with the chamber empty and only the magazine loaded. May miss an occasional shot now and then, but so what? Won't kill myself or someone else.

I've owned and used Remingtons from the early days of the M722s existance until the present, and NEVER had such a problem.

That doesn't mean the M70s and the Sakos are "bad", or the Remingtons "good". It is just the way my personal experiences have been.

As to the "Why take a chance?" approach, I agree with that. Why take a chance on any particular design or feature protecting you? Why not just learn the proper way to safely use whichever rifle(s) you have, and act accordingly?

In the meantime, you guys who don't like Remingtons can give them all to me (prepaid delivery please). I'll see they don't harm anyone when I am using them, which I will be. Same for you folks who don't like Winchesters...or Savages...or even Mossbergs .

Best wishes all.

I believe it was the Remington 700 that was the subject of all that legal action relating to unintentional discharge. I could be wrong, since I don't spend my time studying such matters, but I believe the R 700 holds a special status in that field.

Some people let their subjectivity get in the way of simply accepting the implications of that at face value, and somehow justify dismissing that, when all they need to do is read and understand. There is such a thing as learning from the experience of others, but I suppose subjectivity gets in the path of that too - in deciding what to dismiss and what to accept.

I haven't owned a R 700 in the last 25 years, but before that I had a few, plenty to form an objective and valid opinion on them, based in facts. R 700s haven't changed much since then, except to make the safety where it won't lock the bolt down.

I have seen at least three unintentional discharges, but not experienced one myself. Those three witnessed were all R 700s. How many UIDs witnessed does it take to form a valid opinion on that? Does one have to personally experience UIDs to even qualify for an opinion? On the other hand, if a guy experiences lots of UIDs, does that make his opinion on the subject more valid than the guy who has only one or two or none? At what point does it become evidient that one has become an idiot for not recognizing the implications?

I don't believe that a person has to have extensive experience on a subject to form a good solid and valid opinion about it. As in the case of the R 700 - how much is enough before someone will acknowledge it's enough. For me, using and shooting several 700s, and having friends who owned them, and withnessing the UIDs was plenty for me to call it enough, and I haven't seen any evidence since then to cause me to reconsider, and change my mind.

There is however this constant and consistant bantering between the camps, same subject beat to death. It just comes down to that some find the deficiences of the R700 acceptable enough to overlook. I just choose to not overlook them.

KB

Hello Alberta Canuck,
Your comment about Mitch Maxberry brought back fond memories about him and match shooting in general. I also have shot with him at Perry and Oak Ridge, TN and he is a superb marksman in all respects. He indeed did use the Rem.700 and one day at Oak Ridge it was determined that Mitch and I had the ugliest rifles on the line. Plain Rem.40X walnut stocks, little blueing on the 700 actions, old military cotton web slings, and overall very basic "shoot'n irons." At the end of the matches, scores placed for all to see and the chuckles about our rifles ceased. He finished first and I a lowly third, but good day for me, average for Mitch.

Have two Rem.700 based match rifles from the past match days and find no fault with them. One fairly new, second barrel, other one long lost count of how many rounds and not sure of barrels and have not replaced extractor on either nor had any failures w/ the triggers. They work just fine for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't believe that a person has to have extensive experience on a subject to form a good solid and valid opinion about it.

No, but he should have a little knowledge about the subject so that his opinion will be viewed as valid.

Except for a rare post on Alaska Outdoors, I don't participate in other forums, so I have little comparison. Yet I'm of the opinion that many of you guys think highly of your opinion, and are quick to dismiss others, putting them in the catagory of "little experience", so you can maintain whatever it is you already think.

So, does having experience with only one forum qualify me to have such an opinion? I dunno, but I have one anyway.

I probably think too highly of my opinions as well, but I don't reserve my disagreement to those with "little experience", since it doesn't bother me at all to disagree with those of you who claim lots of experience.

The thing that's important perhaps is to know that I don't need or seek any validation or approval from any of you. Whether you agree or not is your business.

Another thing that is important to understand is that I don't try to embellish my experience to support a weak opinion. I just say it, and try to not blow hard as some do, about stuff that I know nothing about, or worse - think I know a lot about, but really don't.

If one went through life reserving opinion to just those things which he has vast experience with, such a person would be rare. Seems to me, most opinion if formed, with "enough" evidence, while remaining open minded enough to absorbe other evidence and input, and be willing to change opinion. I haven't met many people whose goal was to not form opinion, on issues significant to them.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Seems to me, most opinion if formed, with "enough" evidence, while remaining open minded enough to absorbe other evidence and input, and be willing to change opinion. I haven't met many people whose goal was to not form opinion, on issues significant to them.

KB

Ahhhh, you are starting to make sense. I don't have any experience with you, yet I am beginning to form an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

Ahhhh, you are starting to make sense. I don't have any experience with you, yet I am beginning to form an opinion.

I have experience with you, unless you are not the guy I'm thinking of. SO anyway, I formed a tentative opinion of you long ago, subject to change of course, but I haven't let that get in the way of neutrality and courtesy in dealing with you in the present.

Gud day to you sir,

KB

All opinions expressed here are worth exactly what they cost.

However, my OWN opinion of what another's opinion is worth is often influenced by

1.How much CREDIBLE experience and qualification is claimed?
2.How clearly and civilly is the opinion stated?
3.What facts or credible reports are offered in support?
4.Does the opinion make sense in an objectively logical way?

There's lots of difference between a person who has 10 years' experience spent doing the same-old same-old and another person who has 10 years' experience spent learning more and more at each opportunity. IMO lots of experience in exploring alternatives and gaining new skills is what makes the right machinist into a toolmaker and the right apprentice into a master. OTOH 'experience' can be just another word for 'seniority', a truly meaningless qualification that has largely strangled Union Labor in this country.
Regards, Joe

rae59,
I got your PM and responded. I have known your gunsmith for many years and also his wife,Sammy. He hasn't personally done much in the last few years.
Butch

Just another comment or two about experience.

When I was speaking of experience, I was not speaking just of repititions. There is such a thing as ten years of experience and then there is 1 month of experience repeated 120 times.

I was speaking of experience in terms of a person having seen things happen, then having done detailed examination of why and how each occurance happened, and finally of learning how to avoid negative experiences repeating themselves.

One way, of course is to avoid using an object one cannot repair, cannot improve, cannot learn to operate correctly, or cannot viably be able to use within its limits (for whatever reason).

Another is to investigate, do what ever corrective steps if any are appropriate, and go ahead safely using it in appropriate circumstances.

That "How to mend or safely use" experience is the kind of experince I was saying is not particularly common. Lots of people just blame the tool and move on rather than eliminate the problem in some other way.

To each his own. I find it interesting and practical to learn how to use the tools I've got, modifying them if I need to, and being more careful where and how I use them if necessary.

That goes for cars, woodworking tools, electronic devices, guns, and lots of other things.

Some I do eventually give up on, but there aren't many that I don't end up finding useful within their limits of design and quality.

For me that has been true of both Winchesters and Remingtons, as well as lots of other makes.

As I said before, I will be willing to accept any Winchesters or Remingtons that folks want to give away.

A C, that's about as well said as I think it can be. My solution to the R 700 "problem" was to move on, which eliminated the problem for me. The factors primarily considered are that it would be too much trouble and cost to mend and safely use, IMO.

I do admit that I blame the tool, and in fact choose to move on to eliminate the problem, rather than throw good money after bad to fix it another way. It's simply not worth the effort or cost, and I get greater satisfaction out of starting with better tools in the first place.

KB

Kabluewy-

That is a good, well reasoned answer by you, and very genteel in its presentation too, I think.

I did not ever intend to get "on your case", or personally onto anyone else's back either.

Some rifles are better for some purposes (or some people's uses) than others.

I guess I am just a little over-sensitive to the way some folks (not you, again) here at AR tend to lable anything they do not choose for themselves as a "POS".

I don't see any need to insult the owners of those "other" rifles by dis'ing their choice of guns.

Those rifles may very well work perfectly for their needs and methods of use. And, thus, I must see them as "different" but not necessarily "crappy", and individually preffered rifles are not necessarily any better, at all.

Different tools have differnt strengths and specific applications, have different weaknesses, and often very much need different user techniques.



Best wishes,

AC

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
rae59,
I got your PM and responded. I have known your gunsmith for many years and also his wife,Sammy. He hasn't personally done much in the last few years.
Butch

He hasn't built any rifles in the last few years but he did work on 2 triggers for me last summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Kabluewy-

That is a good, well reasoned answer by you, and very genteel in its presentation too, I think.

I did not ever intend to get "on your case", or personally onto anyone else's back either.

Some rifles are better for some purposes (or some people's uses) than others.

I guess I am just a little over-sensitive to the way some folks (not you, again) here at AR tend to lable anything they do not choose for themselves as a "POS".

I don't see any need to insult the owners of those "other" rifles by dis'ing their choice of guns. It may very well work perfectly for their needs and methods of use. And, thus, I must see it as "different" but not necessarily "crappy" at all.

Best wishes,

AC

A-Canuck, I don't know if the "POS" labeling was directed at my "post" or not but if all will re-read my post, I did say I have a Rem.700 Mountain rifle in a 7X57 that I love! Also posted that despite the bad experiences I'v had with the M-700 I do not consider them to be "bad" rifles. You or should say "I" just have to love them a little different. They ALL have flaws. A person just has to figure out where their threshhold for pain is. In other words what they are willing to tolerate and what they are not.

With all the talk about which action is best purpose built comp rifles, I have a question that I've always wondered about.

People tout a fast lock time as very important, and claim the Remington 700 (and clones) to be the clear winners in this area. However, it seems to me that most Remingtons (and clones) are used in supported positions, i.e. benchrest, while Winchesters are more popular in unsupported competition, i.e. high power, etc.

Common sense tells me that a fast lock time is more important in an unsupported rifle, as by definition there will be more movement in said rifle and you'd want the cartridge to fire as close to the time the sights are aligned to the target as possible.

On the other hand, and keep in mind that I do not compete in benchrest but have watched a fair amount, the rifles are fully supported and it seems that the goal is to have as little interference with the rifle as possible. it seems to me that in this scenario a fast lock time is much less critical as the rifle isn't going to move until the primer detonates anyway.

I know there are other factors and attributes that make each action type popular in their respective disciplines, but the issue of lock time has always made me wonder. I can't believe that no one has been able to combine the lock time of the Remington with the functional features of the Winchester.

Sorry for the hijack

CAS- You make some interesting points.

A few thoughts...I agree that it may at first seem a bit odd that Remingtons tend to be used mostly from better supported positions, while Winchesters seem to be used more from less well supported positions. It appears somewhat counter-intuitive, doesn't it?

Having competed in both High Power and Bench Rest, my observations, for what little they are worth, are these:

1. There are few if any better supported positions than a solid prone position.

2. It is amazing how much a bench rifle moves when supported by front and rear sandbags. When I started using 36-x and 40-X scopes on my BR guns, one of the first things I noticed was how much the whole gun moved on the target while the trigger was pulled.

After a while I found that if the only part of the gun I touched at the bench when on aim was the trigger...nothing more...I could at least get the movement to be much more uniform. So I used what is called "free recoil" holding, where nothing other than the trigger is touched in any way when on aim. That, in turn, requires a VERY light trigger...I would adjust mine down to slightly below 1 ounce pull weight.

3. Interestingly (to me at least) when shooting high power, I actually liked trigger pulls of about 3.5 pounds in preference to lighter ones. I used the last part of the pull to steady the rifle on aim.

4. Whether rightly or wrongly, many benchresters seem to find that "symmetry" appears to make absolute top precision shooting easier to come by. Whether it is regularity of vibrations, or something else, things seem to work better if action ports, bolt lugs, extractors, etc. are all as symetrical as possible. Obviously, that pretty much leaves out hanging a big extractor on one side of the bolt, cutting a notch on one side of the barrel to receive it, etc.

5. In High Power across the course shooting, one must fire two 10-round strings (with a mandatory magazine reload in each string) rapid fire (one at 200 yards, one at 300 yards, or simulated equivalents). To do so within the time limits and leave the most time for settling into the aim for each shot. So, the easier it feels to cycle the bolt, the better most like it. Historically, most seemed to prefer the cycling of the Model 70, and in rapid fire, that seemed to offset any real or imagined accuracy advantages of the Remingtons.

These days everyone seems to be pretty much switching to semi-autos based on Stoner or similar systems, so I suspect in a few years neither Remington nor Winchester bolt guns will be seen too much on the line in High Power.

I do think there are bolt actions out there which combine some of the features of both guns. But, it may be they arrived just as the bolt gun party is coming to an end...at least in High Power.

In BR, the revel of bolt-gun love may go on much longer. So far the "symmetry"(SP?) tenets seem to be still dominant. That's probably because in BR you can shoot all Xs and still lose if one other guy there also shoots all Xs and has a .001" smaller group aggregate.

Ken Wyatt has had a 700 on display the last two years at SHOT (he's been in with PTG).

It has a claw extractor that I couldn't readily place - after talking to him a few minutes, he said it was off a Ruger 77.

Nice looking and smooth working conversion.

Think I'd stick with a Model 70, but that's just me.