this isn't the poltical forum - clean up your language -- i shouldn't have to tell adults to act this way

Very interesting thread, in subject matter as well as colleagues' responses.

No plastic anything for me. I would replace the barrels and deliver the rifles, period. Then either re-machine the engraved areas or use SR4759's suggestion of low-temp silver solder with a steel plug, and then I would use the messed-up barrels for something else.

That is 'best' work.

Yes, we all know all the bad words, but IMO anyone who uses pejorative terms that are racial, ethnic, geographical or any other NON-choice area is betraying their own stupidity and rudeness. No one of us can change our color, heritage or where we were born and so these factors are not 'blame' areas.

Ignorance and poor manners can be fixed but stupidity and rudeness seem to be permanent. Use of the N-word as well as various profanities or obscenities merely shows that the user isn't smart enough to think of a better term.

So when you call someone a nigger or a cunt in public, what you are actually doing is telling the whole world that you yourself are stupid and rude.

When I was a chap down here in The South, the phrase describing such a person was 'Rude, crude and socially UNacceptable!"(grin) Unfortunately these folks come in all sorts of colors with all sorts of accents from seemingly all geographical areas so it's sometimes hard to tell until they open their mouths and the filth spills out.

Please let's keep it clean, keep it on topic, and contribute constructively when we can.
Regards, Joe

J.D.Steele, I think the term was appropriate. Offending the ignorant sod wasn't something I was concerned about. If the shoe fits.....

Winning your approval also does not concern me.

Actually, if you are going to reuse the barrel, why fool with pieces? Just recontour slightly, with or without peening, and reuse it.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Use of the N-word as well as various profanities or obscenities merely shows that the user isn't smart enough to think of a better term.

So when you call someone a nigger or a cunt in public, what you are actually doing is telling the whole world that you yourself are stupid and rude.

How about if we just substitute those two words with "Obama" and "Pelosi"? Will that work for you Joe?

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
J.D.Steele, I think the term was appropriate. Offending the ignorant sod wasn't something I was concerned about. If the shoe fits.....

Winning your approval also does not concern me.

The term used may be appropriate for certain company behind closed doors or to a known and condoning audience. But this is out there for anyone and everyone to read.

Now I myself have used that term to describe shoddy work. The problem is it is a racial remark wether or not you want to believe it.

Now if someone should so choose to describe such shoddy work you could refer to is as "Mickey moused" "Jerry rigged" or "Jury rigged" (even that is mildly racist to the Germans) "Bubba'ed" (Which is a uni-racial Uni-geographical term) or just plane old half assed work.
Like Joe said it is only a betrayal of someones own ignorance

And z1r it is noted what you called FMC and I respect for doing it.

Give me a fn break.............

But for the record- for those here who are truly and genuinely offended, I am sorry.

Too bad I hadn't used the word presidential...that would have pleased the others..........

Yeah I got a potty mouth, but I never got the memo where this crowd went "Rainbow Warrior" (is that better than fag?) soft.......


But res ipsa loquitor

quote:

Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway.

Am I missing anything?

Yet again, the trouble with the gun trade rears its ugly head.

What doesn't belong:

craftsmanship integrity accountability commitment easy fix

quote:

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK

Not very PC I'm Mexican. Where's your glass house located....LOL Couldn't resist. Just kidding, humerous and true.

FMC
Like I said I've used that term myself I still do and will probably never stop but there is a time and place for such language. I'm not offended in the least. I'm German and some say I'm bordering on Nazi. I just don't like to see things like that in print for some other anti gun A hole to copy and paste on some other PC prominent board to show how inbreed and redneck us gun owners are.
What I'm getting at is no matter what happens here this is not email and everyone can read what you say. There are standards that we try to abide by and given the context of the statement Yes it was a perfect spot on description but someone here may not care to read it and some that sand bag this board for political reasons may try to exploit such a statement.

As per my immigration statement. That's why I put it up. If you have worked in Mexico you would know that the Immigrants them selves are only taking advantage of what our government is allowing them to do.
And while we're on the subject I stand by my statement the homeless are useless. And we should either start up work camps or friggin send them somewhere else. Again at least the Illegals come here to work. Granted some are career criminals but most just want a better life for them selfs and their kids. My great great grandfather came over on a boat as an immigrant so I'm fifth generation immigrant.

See we seem to forget that back in the day it was the blacks that we hated as immigrants then the Irish then the Italians then the Germans and now it's the Mexicans or anyone from central or south America along with anyone from east Africa.
We seem to forget that the only ones who are Native to this land are the "Native American" and "Mexicans" if you choose to classify them as such In my book they are one and the same. it's just where some english settler decided to draw a line of demarcation that determines who is who.
Ok I'm off the soap box. Back on topic Duane
Figure out where the mistake was made and the responsible party should cover the cost to replace the barrel

Duane, thanks for sharing a moment of imperfection!

I suppose unless one has ever been in the business of building guns for a living, it's difficult to imagine the screw-ups that can occur.

Your musings about a possible "fix" were great, even though some may lack understanding of the context of such a screw up (client's "drop dead" delivery date, cost and delivery of new bbl, damaged relationship w/ the previously reliable engraver, and how much delays and additional work can quickly put a shop "upside down" on a project, etc.).

I was never in doubt as to the "fix" you'd employ. Thanks for bringing back some (not entirely) fond memories.

Jim

KC

No issue. I do not take myself nor any attacks seriously. Actually I rather enjoy the banter and look forward to pot stirring. Couldn't help it.

I do understand the implications, and for that I was wrong. Although given this audience and it's enamour of the commander in chief.........well, let's just drop it and say still I was wrong.

Not Mexican, though you can tell how long one has been in the country by how hard he works <- that is also the basis for the issue I have with this whole thread. Honest, hard working bastards!!!! They don't take shortcuts.

And ironically it's not Mr. Wiebe who is the object of my responses, rather they are intended for the carmudgeons who disparage anything non 98 and wooden stocked. Hence my reference to the Acura commercial, which is sooooo telling with respect to builders of pretty guns and those whose guns actually work -> ultimately.....where's the beef...I guess even the ACGG guys use "filler...."

Here we have the guru/yoda of the revered ACGG rifle, the epitome of what is "the AR" rifle builder asking for advice how to cut a corner..........but I doubt it will hit home, after all they'll keep on looking down their noses at synthetic stocked rifles, or the value of an Echols, Miller, Hoelehan, etc.....

I'd be more than happy to share all of the ACGG fuckups again- a real embarrassment, just don't ask me to name the ACGG metalsmith as he is still in the business.

Bill Soverns was the stockmaker, but those rifles were all prior to his downward spiral and all with the same metalsmith. He should have fired them though. I could be wrong but it seems to me the safe queen builders tend not to fire the rifles whereas the hunter smiths not only fire them but ensure their accuracy.

I hold no grudge against Bill. He should have tested the rifles, but his work wasn't shoddy. In fact I gave Bill 2 argentines, a G33/40 and 3 stock blanks to sell to help him/his family when he got laid off.

I too was a snob til I found a better product.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
Actually, if you are going to reuse the barrel, why fool with pieces? Just recontour slightly, with or without peening, and reuse it.

This was my imediate response as well. replace the barrels and use the re-contoured barrels on another project where the inletting would match the contour. Send the rifles with new barrels to the clients in the white if necessary for the imediate use as needed (as indicated by the tight time frame) and engrave - blue after the time pressured hunt.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Use of the N-word as well as various profanities or obscenities merely shows that the user isn't smart enough to think of a better term.

So when you call someone a nigger or a cunt in public, what you are actually doing is telling the whole world that you yourself are stupid and rude.

How about if we just substitute those two words with "Obama" and "Pelosi"? Will that work for you Joe?

Now THAT is a clean, clever and imaginative response! Wish I had thought of it!

Don't get me wrong, I know all the words and I use them daily when things don't go like I want in the shop. I was raised in a military and heavy-construction environment where most of the time every sentence was punctuated by terms like motherfucker and cocksucker, not to mention nigger, kike, cunt, spic and all the other simple-minded epithets used when the speaker can't think of anything better.

Yes, I can blister the listener's ears right along with the best of you for at least 2-3 minutes without stopping and without repeating myself and probably teach you some new terms too. But so what?

As someone trying to communicate myself and my opinions to the participants here, I prefer to come across as a thoughtful, civilised, reasonable person rather than some uncouth Bubba who can't even communicate without using knee-jerk vulgarities.

For me it's not a matter of offending anyone, it's more a matter of self-respect, trying to appear at least somewhat civilised & knowledgeable rather than uncouth & ignorant.
Regards, Joe

Tig the engraving, dress it down, re-engrave

Did I read Duane's post wrong? It was not Duane's fault. If the engraver made the mistake, it is the client and engraver's problem. The engraver is not going to fix the problem. I read this as Duane trying to save the client money, not trying to save himself. To replace the barrel will cost the client a lot of money and take Duane's time away from working on one of your rifles.
Did I look at this wrong?
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Did I read Duane's post wrong? It was not Duane's fault. If the engraver made the mistake, it is the client and engraver's problem. The engraver is not going to fix the problem. I read this as Duane trying to save the client money, not trying to save himself. To replace the barrel will cost the client a lot of money and take Duane's time away from working on one of your rifles.
Did I look at this wrong?
Butch

Was the engraving a direct commission/transaction between the client and the engraver? Duane is the contractor. Is/was the engraver a sub-contractor?

Good going Duane!
This thread has everything that makes AR such a wonderful place to visit...

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I'd be more than happy to share all of the ACGG fuckups again- a real embarrassment,

Frank
You never answered my question a page back.
Are these guys still members in the ACGG?

Not asking for any names.
The ACGG has a ethics committee and the worst it can do to one of it's members is run them out. I think details of such event SHOULD be posted in the guild's magazine "GUNMAKER". As well as being posted real time online on the guild's private forum. ...not that many members actually use the forum..... Then the members could either help the member and the client resolve the problem or push the member out of the guild.

Frank, have you as a client ever addressed the problems you have had with ACGG members work with those that were paid to do it? Or do you choose to just slap comments like this online?

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
ACGG stands for S H I T in my books. 5 out of 6 rifles had to be fixed from competent smiths. 3 of which wouldn't feed. I guess I forgot to mention they were actually going to be used and not just fondled.

Even if a metalsmith does his part, something as dirt simple as mixing up followers or extractors at the stockmaker's shop can cause serious feeding issues. You can't even become a ACGG stockmaker member without submitting dummy cartridges to test feeding with the stock you are applying for membership. This doesn't mean all stockmakers do this after membership.

If you don't pay for a service you shouldn't expect it to be done. Like shooting for accuracy. The makers you name that do this on every project also advertise that as part of the package and the price reflects the time spent. Some clients enjoy doing this on their own. Other clients would rather it be done for them as their time is more valuable to them doing something else.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I doubt it will hit home, after all they'll keep on looking down their noses at synthetic stocked rifles, or the value of an Echols, Miller, Hoelehan, etc.....

Several of the ACGG members offer synthetic stocks. One of the reasons you have this blanket opinion of the guild is synthetic stocks are banned from being displayed at our annual show. I've entertained the idea of offering this service and broached the possibility of showing a limited # of them at the DSC show in Dallas. I couldn't believe the reaction I got from several of the ACGG members. I even got a phone call from a member telling me that I wouldn't be showing any plastic at the 2012 DSC show even though the 2012 show isn't sponsored by the guild and around 20 will be displaying together at the show. I didn't pay the guild for my space, I wrote my check to the DSC. Don't even think I have time to get a synthetic stocked rifle ready for the show, just can't believe the reaction from some of the members.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I just love Mark Stokeld's signature:

The both of you should be offering ways to make the guild better instead of trying to stereotype it's members as miscreants. That doesn't help anyone. I'd guess that the percentage of quality gunmakers is higher inside the guild than outside. Not that being on either side of the fence paints you as good or bad.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FMC:
I just love Mark Stokeld's signature:

The both of you should be offering ways to make the guild better instead of trying to stereotype it's members as miscreants. That doesn't help anyone. I'd guess that the percentage of quality gunmakers is higher inside the guild than outside. Not that being on either side of the fence paints you as good or bad.

jimbo-

you better be careful. you don't live in a glass house, but it does have some mighty big plate glass windows in it. when you are dealing with a man who truly has nothing to lose in this world, you are dealing with a thoroughly dangerous man

my advice for you is to mind your own fucking business and leave me alone and stop telling me what in your opinion of i "should" be doing. fuck sake, you don't even know what i have done in the past

for the record, i have never had to fix a fuck up of jim's.

from my first hand knowledge, i would definitely not be comfortable saying the guild has better and more reliably good smiths in it than "on the outside." This is the main reason I want nothing to do with the guild. They present themselves as a group of professionals who maintain a high level of quality. After over 10 years of seeing their work and comparing it to the high level of quality that they advertise. The mean level of quality just isn’t there. I ask you to please believe me when I say that I really doubt you understand just how much it hurt me to come that that realization.

and as for the ethics committee and them actually doing something, give me a break. instead of sounding all high and mighty from being on the "inside" why don't you get the records from the ethics committee over the past 10 years, redact the names of the gunmakers and clients, and post that online. Let everyone see what exactly goes on when a client is getting screwed and there is no major life-altering things happening to the gunmaker. in some cases the gunmaker will go through soemthing totally out of his control and have problems. but that is not the norm for the ethics board issues i have ever heard of. Let everyone see how long it too for the ethics committee to even hear of the complaint, what they did, how long it took them to do it, and level of satisfaction of the client. For those who think the there is still a bloom left on the rose of the guild, they are likely to be shocked

if you go back and search my early posts on this board (I know that is not reasonable to ask you to literally do, so it is a rhetorical way of me to ask you to please trust me on this one) I was one of the first people on this board pushing guild smiths for specific work and the guild globally as a great place to look for a smith to fill their needs. This year it finally got to a point where even I, a staunch guild promoter for over a decade, could not look someone in the eyeballs and tell them I honestly thought them picking a

guild smith at random would be more likely to produce a better gun and be a better project experience than them randomly picking an “outside” smith whom folks feel is good enough to be in the guild if he felt like getting in. I am not being dramatic when I say it broke my heart and I felt betrayed.

Listen, here’s the deal. I have never been a guy to take someone who was not legitimately in a position of authority over me telling what I had to or should do. I am probably not long for this world and I uber more am not going to put up with it today.

I would LOVE to see the guild be what it can be and would gladly donate time to help it make the transition from here to there. From my literal hundreds of hours of thoughts on the matter, and looking at what I have experienced in my life in creating true seas changes in organizations, I have a ton of ideas of how the guild can really be what it says it is. But I imagine I am black-listed from ever even attending a guild show as a visitor.

I am going to close with a little tidbit of information that should send a chill down the spine of every guild member who wants the organization to live up to its printed ideals and have the public see it as such. Since putting that in my signature line, 3 guild members have sent me mails asking why I said that. Not a single one of them ask follow up questions about what could be done to fix the situation I described. But MANY folks have emailed and pm’d me saying they loved the signature line. If you truly want the guild to be both better internally as an organization and better viewed by the custom gun buying community, then think about that for a while and see if it bothers you.

Marc, you're the one that needs to chill out. As a friend I will tell you your post and signature are way out of line.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Marc, you're the one that needs to chill out. As a friend I will tell you your post and signature are way out of line.

Terry

+1

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Marc, you're the one that needs to chill out. As a friend I will tell you your post and signature are way out of line.

Terry

Wrong.

The truth shall set you free......



Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway. Am I missing anything?



Indefensible.

quote:

Since putting that in my signature line, 3 guild members have sent me mails asking why I said that. Not a single one of them ask follow up questions about what could be done to fix the situation I described. But MANY folks have emailed and pm’d me saying they loved the signature line. If you truly want the guild to be both better internally as an organization and better viewed by the custom gun buying community, then think about that for a while and see if it bothers you.

My question though is do you have the business or do the carmudgeons just keep the rifles in the safe and not admit to their inherent flaws. And of course strike down the messengers as they stroke off the man on their right....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Lw_02M63Y

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

Hey: the comments re ACGG workmanship are fair game in the public arena but if you don't send the message directly to the ivory tower, it may be overlooked or not noticed...or ignored.

Duane
I agree with the "fair game in public" but think the person actually doing the work should should be the one to take the credit for it's results, not the groups they belong to. That's like saying that just because a certain gunmaker does a half a$$ work and he's an American citizen then all American Gunmakers do half a$$ work. That guilt by association may work in politics, but not in the real world.

Your "ivory tower" comment makes a lot of sense. If the guild doesn't know that there is a problem with one of it's members then it can't do anything about it. CAN THEY?????

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
Good going Duane!
This thread has everything that makes AR such a wonderful place to visit...

NOW it is indeed complete

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Tig the engraving, dress it down, re-engrave

Not a metal person by any means, but isn't this a good option? Little different than tigging a few large pits?

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Tig the engraving, dress it down, re-engrave

Not a metal person by any means, but isn't this a good option? Little different than tigging a few large pits?

IMO this isn't a good option for a barrel that is intended to be accurate and relatively non-fouling. The TIG process, although relatively fast in comparison to some others, still heats the weldment far past a red heat. This can result in localized stress relief, dimensional changes and even formation of slag in the bore in some cases.

Remachine the barrels and use in other projects.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Your "ivory tower" comment makes a lot of sense. If the guild doesn't know that there is a problem with one of it's members then it can't do anything about it. CAN THEY?????

James. I will give you some food for thought. It's a bigger picture than just pointing fingers at one or two people. Read this purely as constructive criticism:

This statement says it all:

quote:

Glad to hear that you will take her afield. Dave finishes his rifles to a high degree, but each and every one is made to be used in the field. He makes sure they work properly before shipping them. We all let something slip through the cracks occasionally, but for Dave it really would be an anomaly. With some of his rifles he will have 100 rounds through htem before shipping.

He makes sure they work properly before shipping them. He makes sure they work properly before shipping them.

I read that and thought to myself WTF!!!!!!!!That statement implies he is the exception, not the rule. That is my issue, and why my blanket comments about the community as a whole.

quote:

The American Custom Gunmakers Guild (ACGG) is an association dedicated to the advancement of the art of custom gunmaking........ Associates are individuals and companies who have an interest in fine quality custom firearms.

I understand some people build rifles that are not intended to be hunted- fine. Your community standards emphasize perfection in execution (form over function), fine nothing wrong with that either.

But......if that is the case, your bar is set too low as the fit finish of the Echols, Holehan et al. rifles meet/exceed your standards and yet those guys offer far more for their product. (don't nit pick as to differences in products, what you pay for, etc- pure constructive criticism nothing pejoritive) Therein lies what I see is the problem as a whole. And frankly if you read Mr. Stokeld carefully it is the disappointment that fuels the fire more not the errors themselves.

Specifically my disappointment:

5 rifles/projects that: didn't pick up a cartridge from the well, didn't feed from the left rail, fed inconsistently, looooong throated. And all easily fixed.

Call me stupid, fine, if $ was an object yes, very stupid. But one thing y'all fail to realize, I kept on giving chance after chance. That is why there is disaapointment. All it would have taken was for someone to fire the guns......just cycle the fucking bolt...and I'm not even talking accuracy.

All the emphasis was on form over function. That is the bigger picture, not that one artist made a misstep with one brush stroke.

Again, if you want to clean house individual by individual, ok. My opinion- wrong way to do it. But again there is a bigger problem. You will never live up to your expectations/goals if your standards are only of fit and finish.

The first step in fixing a problem is to admit that there is one.

Even if your community may not consider that as a problem, fine, but it is an issue that IMO if you were to address, would make your community better as a whole.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Tig the engraving, dress it down, re-engrave

Not a metal person by any means, but isn't this a good option? Little different than tigging a few large pits?

IMO this isn't a good option for a barrel that is intended to be accurate and relatively non-fouling. The TIG process, although relatively fast in comparison to some others, still heats the weldment far past a red heat. This can result in localized stress relief, dimensional changes and even formation of slag in the bore in some cases.

Remachine the barrels and use in other projects.
Regards, Joe

Maybe if you stick weld it or don't know what you're doing with a tig torch.
J.D in your defense There are few "gunsmiths' that can tig worth a darn.

That said there are places and people that can tig that engraving up with just enough material build up to stone off and give it another go. It's called Micro welding and works like a champ. It also has a very focused arc and doesn't put a lot of heat into the part.
I've done dome of this my self but I was borrowing a machine at the time just to get familiar. The investment is $10K just for the welder. Ask Ted Thorn he would know He's in the same industry i was in. they have to make the same repairs we did. Either by Micro welding or laser welding
Again though in the wrong hands everything J.D. said is true.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
All the emphasis was on form over function.
.

Lots of truth here.

But let's face it, you can get perfect function for under $1000 if you don't care about form. It's the COMBINATION of form & function that makes the rifle worth the price of a small automobile.

And the only way to ensure proper function is to drop a dime on the smiths who don't deliver, loud and long, until they're forced to either improve their product or go out of business.

Name names and blare the information out loud and long on every forum around, and mention whether they are Guild members or not. MAKE SURE that you give the offending smith a chance to correct any issues and then tell the details if you're not happy.

If the guy's listed by the Guild as a Stockmaker but not a Metalsmith then don't expect his metalwork to be up to par; ditto the stockwork of most Metalsmiths who aren't also listed as Stockmakers. 'Gunmaker' is a greatly overused term these days.
Regards, Joe

Hmmmmm the Guild does take actions against members when necessary. Two of the people who are posting on this thread are JOI's plain and simple who's only objective is to grind their respective “axe’s”. Pretty sad actually but there is no cure for this and I am sure it will continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Did I read Duane's post wrong? It was not Duane's fault. If the engraver made the mistake, it is the client and engraver's problem. The engraver is not going to fix the problem. I read this as Duane trying to save the client money, not trying to save himself. To replace the barrel will cost the client a lot of money and take Duane's time away from working on one of your rifles.
Did I look at this wrong?
Butch

Was the engraving a direct commission/transaction between the client and the engraver? Duane is the contractor. Is/was the engraver a sub-contractor?

I was the delivery boy...deal twixt clients and engraver. Still chaps my ass to see so much work turned to crap no matter who's to blame. Mark Stokeland: Can you PM me? Can't seem to get thru from this end

Would chap my ass also, and I'm sure you feel responsible. But the real bottom line is, and I know it might not sound right, it's not your problem. The other bottom line is, don't shoot the messenger.

The firestorm started not because Duane simply delivered a message about a botched engraving job, it started because he posted some ridiculous ideas for "working around" the problem. I've worked with Duane long enough to know that after he blows off some steam, he'll do what he always does and that is deliver perfection.

At this point, I have just about as much money riding on Duane's reputation as he has. If my heirs decide to sell some of my Wiebe guns, I certainly wouldn't want buyers to be concerned that any of the guns might have some half-assed "work around" hidden under the wood line.

I'm sure by now Duane's learned that rumination, like masturbation, is best done in private.

Kevin,
Last time I was at Forrest's place I counted 45 1/2. When he gets the 46th patched, he will have 46.
Butch

Frankly I know you did the right thing in getting the customer involved. If it was my rifle, I would want to know and feel the decision is mine, I am paying the bill. Has always worked for me and that was SOP in my last job...customers really appreciate this.

Marc, your views remind me of why I took a pass on O-6, and retired as an 0-5 ASAP. Shoot me a PM when you get a chance. There has been some progress on the medical front.

FMJ,

Dude, pull it out of afterburner lest you run out of fuel much too early in life. Frothing at the mouth will only turn of the hearing aids of the people who should be listening to you. Regardless of the real problems you allude to, or address directly (except names), I feel embarrassed just reading your posts as in "oh boy, here we go again."

If you truly want change for the better, stop the rant and simply supply all the facts, including names.

I guess it is too late to ask if this is going to be a long thread?

quote:

What do you think?

What do you think? I Think you're getting a whole lot of mileage out of this thread ,Duane. roger

to Rusty and Roger.

Gentlemen:

You know the old saw about fools rushing in....


First of all, Mr. Stokeld has not fixed any of my screw ups. If he has, the client never contacted me about the problem. While I sure enough have my shortcomings, failure to attend any issues a client may have after delivery is not one of them.


To achieve Regular Membership in the Guild, a prospect has to present evidence that he is indeed in the business of custom gunmaking. He must submit the name and contact information of six clients. And he has to submit some very high quality work for judgment by the members of the organization.

Yes, there is an occasional applicant that meets the above criteria and achieves regular membership who in hindsight should not have, for whatever reason, been accepted. This is not the Department of Homeland Security. We cannot hire private investigators to go talk to their neighbors and tap their phones. The Guild does indeed contact the submitted references and check business credentials. Before the acceptance process is complete the applicant's name is published in the Guild magazine, giving a chance for both regular and associate members to comment on the applicant.

The organization is not blind to the issue. About a year ago the Guild appointed a committee to review the application process. The findings of this committee have been acted upon and the process has been significantly improved. It has never been easy to achieve regular membership, but it is more difficult now. The system is good, but it is not bullet proof. And it never will be.

Now here is the reality. The sole power the Guild has over its members is to revoke that membership. The Guild does has requirements for quality and integrity. It does in fact revoke the membership of members not meeting those standards. There is a five member Ethics Committed established specifically for the purpose of reviewing complaints made against Guild members. Complaints against a member are reviewed, and if a member is found to not be upholding the required standards action is taken. Memberships are revoked.

The catch is that they have to be reported to the Guild. Vague references about incompetent Guild members in a forum on the internet does not help. If you have problems with the work or business practices of a Guild member that cannot be resolved by working directly with that member, then you need to contact the Guild. The Guild will forward those complaints to the Ethics Committee and the issue will be looked into.

We are not hard to find. The names and contact information for all the officers and directors of the ACGG are in each issue of the magazine, and on our website.


Respectfully to all.

Glenn Fewless

Vice President, ACGG
gfewless@tds.net

Thanks, Glenn, for a voice of calmness.

I look at the Guild as being similar to a labor union, in that their workers can generally be counted upon to provide a certain level of knowledge and expertise. This does NOT mean that their workers are superior in any individual case, but rather that the average guild or union worker is reasonably competent in his area of qualification.

As in other things in life, there are no guarantees. We'll find crummy jackleg workmen as well as superior artists in any group (whether organized or not), it's up to us to choose the best for our purposes.

Don't forget that the guy who graduated last in his med school class is still known as 'Doctor', just like the guy who graduated at the top!
Regards, Joe

A second "Well Said" to Glen.