I also sent Mark an email requesting a visit; it went unanswered. My only hope is that he is not referring to me as one of the miscreants. But...if I was, I would want to know about it and have the oportunity to correct the problem.

As glen said, there is an avenue for this type of problem, but to just air it without any specifics will not cure the problem.

Jim

Glenn. That's great that your standards of admission have become more stringent. It'll make your society better in the long run and you should also see an improvement of your product(s).

I build/repair my own golf clubs and know I can "submit" a perfect set for admission into whatever golf club repair etc society there may be, but as a weekend hobbyist I sure ain't worth a lick when compared to those in the field.

In all of my posts, going back to the thread on "Gunsmiths do you check your work after you chamber," I've been steadfast- check your work. No excuse not to. A custom gun needs to feed, shoot accurately (open to interpretation) and look good to the owner.

You lost a customer in '07 because of that. Now, I also hunt with these rifles and do prefer an accurate rifle above all else so maybe I'm not your typical client. But at one point I had 8-9 actions/blanks for projects and gave up on them.

You know, when someone doesn't use my services, I want to know why. Maybe it's something I can do better or maybe it's just a case of not a good fit; regardless I'd like to know why. I don't dismiss them and say "that's ok they're just nothing but a so and so." I expect that from my wife.

From your perspective:
1. Why did I lose a client?
2. Why would that former client continue to purchase a similar product that costs nearly twice the amount as my own?
3. What is that competitor doing differently than me?
4. Can I/do I want to alter my product or techniques?

As James alluded to, other builders out there are more accuracy/hunting oriented- so you can dismiss me because of that- questions 1,2 &4. Maybe I truly am just barking at the moon. But not checking your work is inexcusable no matter what/why or for whom you build a rifle, even if your emphasis is on form over function..

The one thing the builders I switched to have in common is that everything is under one roof. Which is more often/can be the exception when compared to your society. <- not saying it's wrong but the opportunity for miscommunication grows exponentially in the latter.

A suggestion for you: in the case of split specialties, the final assemblor of your product should be the one to check the QC of the entire project, not assume the "metal smith," etc did their job correctly. Perhaps you may want to consider a cross training/minimal competency standard all must meet.

I'm not going to be the person who points a finger and makes someone lose their livelihood. I prefer to correct those errors on my ticket and choose simply to move on. But you'll hear about them.

Mr. FMC:


There is no question that a custom firearm should be, first and foremost, a firearm. If it doesn't function, it is only a useless artifact. There is no excuse for a non functional firearm, and no excuse for a gunmaker not test firing the gun. None whatsoever.

I personally don't know a gunmaker who doesn't test fire his work before it leaves his shop as a matter of routine. I don't say it doesn't happen, but no one I know of does it.

In my opinion firearms, no matter how pretty, are meant to be shot. Most of my work is building competitive target rifles. Many are very finely finished rifles, but they are all meant to be shot. And shot a lot. The balance of my work is sporting rifles, and the same thing applies. Firearms are tools. Fine custom firearms are very fine and beautiful, but they are still tools.


Best regards,

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by hst:
Mr. FMC:


There is no question that a custom firearm should be, first and foremost, a firearm. If it doesn't function, it is only a useless artifact. There is no excuse for a non functional firearm, and no excuse for a gunmaker not test firing the gun. None whatsoever.

I personally don't know a gunmaker who doesn't test fire his work before it leaves his shop as a matter of routine. I don't say it doesn't happen, but no one I know of does it.

In my opinion firearms, no matter how pretty, are meant to be shot. Most of my work is building competitive target rifles. Many are very finely finished rifles, but they are all meant to be shot. And shot a lot. The balance of my work is sporting rifles, and the same thing applies. Firearms are tools. Fine custom firearms are very fine and beautiful, but they are still tools.


Best regards,

Glenn

Well then you and I think alike. I still have a 7mm Rem and Pre War m70 barrelled action that eventually need some work. Maybe next year's projects.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Thanks, Glenn, for a voice of calmness.

I look at the Guild as being similar to a labor union,.......

Wow! There's a can of worms.

Glenn, please forward me the latest ACGG benefits package. Insurance, retirement, paid holidays, sick days, etc.

I'll be anxiously waiting with baited breath.

FMC didn't hire the ACGG to build his rifles, he hired individual gunsmiths. It seems as though he hasn't even given the ACGG an opportunity to assist him within the realm of their authority. It's unfair to paint the rest of the members with such broad brush of disatisfaction when they had nothing to do with his projects.

Likewise, I've never hired the ACGG to build a gun for me. There are a few Guild members whom I wouldn't hire to thread a water pipe but there are quite a few other members who turn out world-class work year after year. I wouldn't advise anyone to look to the ACGG as a "mark of quality" for anything - time and again they have proven to be almost inept at fulfilling that mission.

I must say though, the one time I was ripped-off by an ACGG member their Ethics Committee helped me get my money back and the miscreant is no longer a Guild member (he had loads of gunsmithing talent but little business sense).

As talented and knowledgable as Mark Stokeld is, he can't hold a candle to many of the true gunmakers who are Guild members. For that reason alone, his sig line is childish and laughable.

Wow, I am really amazed at this thread, not just the reactions but the bashing, the spins off topic and so forth.

I just want to make sure I get this straight, just because Duane is a universally agreed fabulous gunsmith he isn't allowed to vent here and blow off some steam, he has to keep it to himself and then only post the issue and the solution he went with??

I see it as he's one of our fraternity, if he wants to talk things out, all that matters to me is the ultimate decision. Looking at his work I'd say he always ends up going with the best decision for a fine finished product, I doubt he has a single client that could say he cut corners.

I've heard from more than one person that the difference between a master and an apprentice isn't a total lack of mistakes, but the knowledge of how to correct them. And he hasn't gone back and deleted or edited, he stood by his post. He went the replacement route, all that matters is what he did about it in the end. And frankly I don't think the opinions of a few people here pushed him to that decision, I think he already knew when he posted but was doing the mental masturbation many of us do when stuck in a pickle. He just made the mistake of thinking that since we're pals here we'd treat him the same and discuss it with him instead of being upset that he'd even consider options. And what about the benefits of discussing options on something like that for those of us that might find ourselves in a similar situation on a low dollar rifle where a "fix" is preferable to a replacement?

I think that people who put faith in membership in an organization are setting themselves up to be disappointed. Do they deserve disappointment? no. but does it surprise me? No. Be it a church, union, bar, medical association etc. etc. just the fact of membership does not guarantee a good choice. Hell, I hear that the ADA is actually more about price fixing than about ensuring quality dental work.

Membership in the ACGG means at one point the smith demonstrated in some capacity a level of skill deemed to be to their standards. It has nothing to do with them as businessmen though, and that is where it seems the majority of gunsmithing stuff goes tits up. the best way to pick a gunsmith? ask other people, somewhere like here, and get real feedback and current track record. Doesn't matter if they are members of the guild or not, pick the one you hear good things about. there are a couple people that I never hear bad things about here, that's a good place to start.

gotta run but that's a start of what I was gonna say, worth the paper it's printed on of course.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I am now qualified as a"Retired Kamakazie Pilot"

Look at it this way Duane, a year from now maybe no one will remember this thread..

What a train wreck. There are clearly some people with axes to grind jumping at every opportunity here.. And Marc, for someone who is so critical, your signature smacks of un-professionalism and sour grapes.

This thread makes me glad that I build my own rifles. Some are more functional than others and some are prettier than others. Some are downright ugly. But the ones I like the most are both functional and appealing.

And if liking 98 Mausers and wood stocks makes me a snobb then so be it. To each his own. One thing I know for sure, a rifle doesnt have to be ugly to function to perfection.

What do I think? I think the majority of gunsmiths are tinkerers at heart, people who like to fix things. Its in their nature.

I dont consider myself a gunsmith, (even though I could) but I am one of those guys.

I think the plastic steel was a really bad idea. Silver solder is far more acceptable as it wouldnt be prone to cracking and fragmenting.

As for the ins and outs of your relationship/dealings with your customer. Wether you are right or wrong to consider "fixing" the situation. I think thats none of my damn business.. But I do think people who present themselves as professionals would do well to add an extra teaspoon of discretion, maybe even humility, when internet forums become part of the equation.

quote:

The Guild does has requirements for quality and integrity.

[QUOTE]Vague references about incompetent Guild members in a forum on the internet does not help. If you have problems with the work or business practices of a Guild member that cannot be resolved by working directly with that member, then you need to contact the Guild. The Guild will forward those complaints to the Ethics Committee and the issue will be looked into.[QUOTE]

The professional organization that I belong to publishes Rules of Professional Conduct for anyone and everyone to read.

Does the ACGG do the same? If not, how does one know what is and what is not the proper conduct and proper standards expected of an ACGG member such that if one experiences what they believe to be improper conduct or standards one may then complain to the proper committee? And if no standards are published, how can one measure the fairness of the decision received from the committee that considered the complaint?

AW JEEZ?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
AW JEEZ?

Aw come on Butch, your just pissed because Detroit came back in the second half to beat Dallas. But don't feel bad, it happened to the Vikings too.

I guess I'm lost? Dallas who? Have you had a problem with a Guild member?
Actually I did a few years ago and whatever the Guild did, I got my satisfaction.
Butch

No. Actually the only Guild Member that I have dealt with was absolutely super!!! Was Tom Burgess a guild member? If so, then it would be two who were super. But if I were to deal with another one it would be good to know what the code of conduct is in the event that there were problems.

I thought you did your own things with a file and sandpaper.
Butch

no, I asked if it was possible to do correctly. I think the word I used was "accurately".

Now let me see here, Kevin's professional organization.....

FOTFLMAO!
Regards, Joe

So you fell on the floor laughing your ass off.

Your response is all too common here on AR. Rather than having something constructive to say about the issue, you instead invite sympathy to your point of view by attempting to embarrass or ridicule the other person in the discussion. This is a very common method of presenting an argumet on the internet (I admit to being guilty of it myself at times). But those that are aware of it quickly see it for what it is, which usually is that the person is incapable of objective reasoning, and therefore must resort to subjective reasoning, commonly called ad hominum reasoning.

Here, my argument about the subject matter was that the ACGG should publish their code of conduct. I supported my argument by suggesting that I work by a code of conduct. Nowhere did I ridicule anyone by my argument. I don't suggest that you don't have the right to say what you said. The first amendment certainly protects your speech. All I am suggesting is that if you want to speak intelligently about a subject you might stick to the subject rather than attempt to garner support for your side by doing nothing more than attacking personalities, which you seem to do quite a bit here on AR.

I think that a lot of people here are probably getting quite tired of your my shit doesn't stink but yours sure does method of argument. May I suggest that the next time you post about a controversial subject you try and refrain from saying anything personal about the person who has taken an opposite viewpoint from yours, and instead write objectively about the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

That said there are places and people that can tig that engraving up with just enough material build up to stone off and give it another go. It's called Micro welding and works like a champ. It also has a very focused arc and doesn't put a lot of heat into the part.
I've done dome of this my self but I was borrowing a machine at the time just to get familiar. The investment is $10K just for the welder...

I've experienced such tech./machine.
thats what I would use to fill/correct the engraving error.
one is actually able to hold small components in bare fingers while the machine goes about it job.

Kevin, my response was prompted by what appeared to be your scornful and denigrating comparison of the ACGG to the ABA.

When you use the ABA as a comparison yardstick for organizational reputation and ethics, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

Like my business partner (lawyer) tells my brother (also lawyer), "It's the crooked 99% that give the honest 1% a bad name!"(FOTFLMAO)

IMO ABA (& AMA for that matter) = coverup for the members' failures; reminds me of a cat in the litter box.

I personally think that an ethics statement is A Good Thing, in fact an EXCELLENT thing, but please don't use the ABA for comparison in any way but to point out their own failures.
Regards, Joe

A careful reading of my argument would reveal that I was not suggesting that any organization that I belonged to was superior in any way to any other organization.

Rather, I was only suggesting that an organization that I belonged to had a published code of ethics (and I wasn't refering to the ABA). I could have referred to the AMA, the ADA, the ANA, the AEA or a host of others. It would not have made a difference.

Why? Because the argument was for a PUBLISHED code of ethics, not for an organization I belong to. There is a big difference. Please read more carefully before criticizing what I write.

This thread just needs to go away---let it go...

Awww, C'mon now. I just love to see someone making a real azz of himself, ;and it ain't Duane.

In every group there are always going to be some people who just don't get it.

Kevin,
You are not enough on the ball to figure out that it is you.
Butch

in every group there are going to be some people who just don't get it.

And you have not figured it out have you?
Butch

No, what I have figured out is that it is you.

ROGLMFAO!
Butch

SIACLMAO


Kevin

Butch, you have got to remember you cannot argue with an idiot because they don't know, or at least, won't admit they are.

Butch, you should not emulate or take advice from idiots, lest you become one yourself.

22wrf,
Do you remember what this thread is about? I've made the mistake of allowing you to pull me into the gutter with you. I know you will want the last word again, so this is my last post on this thread. Make your last comment and STFU.
Butch

Butch

Yes, I do remember what is started as. Misplaced engraving. However, as usually happens here on AR, through many twists and turns the thread wove its way to where it is at now.

I didn't pull you anywhere. You allowed yourself to go wherever it is you think you went.

Have a nice day.

I think we did suck you in though.

quote:

we

Ah!! Such an admittance indicates purpose and collusion.

I don't know if I would agree that I was "sucked in" so much as that I chose to respond, which I always will.

One would think that members of the ACGG would have better things to do with their time than trolling AR with a partner to look for threads and then attempt to "suck in" the writer.
That is unless the ACGG member is such a poor craftsman that few people hire him to do any work.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
to where it is at now.

AT? semi-literate usage....

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
One would think that members of the ACGG would have better things to do with their time than trolling AR with a partner to look for threads and then attempt to "suck in" the writer

One would think that someone who has had 19 years of schooling would be able to use better English. But then again it's not the first time he's shown his true colors (grin).
Thanks to Duane for this thread, I had almost forgotten how ridiculous Kevin could be!
Regards, Joe

Joe

I do admit to being semi literate, but unlike a lot of other folks I know, I write my own work.

I think you ought to take a good hard long look in the mirror to see who is ridiculous.
You continue to prove it is you by your uninvited attacks against people (not just me) who take positions in threads here on AR. Again, I think its probably because of your inability to reason objectively. Instead you take subjective potshots at people in order to gain support for your position. As I stated before, its very common here on AR, on the internet, and in politics as well. Its ad hominum, and therefore irrelevant.

Wasn't it you who said: "Please let's keep it clean, keep it on topic, and contribute constructively when we can."

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Wasn't it you who said: "Please let's keep it clean, keep it on topic, and contribute constructively when we can."

Yep, it wuz me in reference to another site's rules.

I haven't used any obscenity, vulgarity or profanity toward you, at least not in public that I recall. So I'm OK there.

You're the one who raised the question of a public statement of ethics, so I was on topic so far as you're concerned.

I figure any time I can interject a little truth and maybe even some humility into a discussion with a lawyer, then I'm contributing constructively.(VBG but serious too)

I shoulda known better than to think that you would acknowledge your grammatical error(s).

And just think, you are a fellow who makes his living by using the language and yet here you are, offering up a sample of your own writing to show how NOT to be correct! I hope you don't write your own briefs like you write on this forum......

And THEN you have the GALL to suggest that another professional in this discussion is incompetent!?!?
Just color me incredulous, Joe

"I shoulda known better than to think that you would acknowledge your grammatical error(s)."

If I make an error I admit it. Hundreds, if not thousands of other people make the same types of errors on here every day. You have made many yourself. This is not a "grammar error" forum.



Yes, I did make a public statement about ethics.
And, as predicted, you and others chose to use ad hominum argument rather than objective argument to state your position. It seems almost impossible for you and others to enter a discussion without commenting on someone's personality.

With regard to professionalism - after all, it is a forum about guns. The title of the forum is GUNSMITHING, not lawyering!!!!
Moreover, the comment was not directed to any one person. No names were mentioned. Please read it more carefully. That is, if you can read. And go back and read the rest of this entire thread. I am certainly not the only one who suggested that there might be a lack of professionalism in the gun trade.
Why not go back and discuss their threads with them?