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I just got a couple rifles back from the engraver..NO..IT WAS NOT Scrollcutter!

One, a LH Dakota and the other a pre 64 M-70. The lettering on the barrel was beatifully executed, but was 90 degrees off to the right....So...when barrel installed, about half the lettering was exposed above the woodline...and of course, upside down.

Phooey! I'm really thinking new barrels, because of the resulting inletting gap if I tried to file off the lettering and then there's the issue of unequal wall thickness.

If I set back the barel 1/4 turn, lettering would be on top and inletting appearance probably would not really suffer much since I had not put an abrupt transition from shank to start of taper.

Of course, that leaves the existing extractor slot at 12 o'clock. Steve Button came up with the idea of using plastic steel to fill the old slot, then of course, cut new slot, face off, deepen chamber, etc.

Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway.

Am I missing anything?
 
Posts: 2221 | Location: Tacoma, WA | Registered: 31 October 2003Reply With Quote
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I think that I would pull the barrel and beat the engraver about the head and shoulders with it.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12745 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Duane

Could you use a milling cutter and mill the engraving away, fit with a nice panel and use the panel to frame the newly engraved caliber.

Hal
 
Posts: 164 | Location: Montana | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I don't know how gun savvy engravers are, but was the engraver aware it was for a left handed action and how it would sit finished? If so, let him pay for a new one.

In any case, a craftsman would have to be temporarily insane to seriously entertain such a plan. Now is not the time to self inflict a wound of that magnitude.


_______________________________________________________________________________
This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life.
 
Posts: 3171 | Location: SLC, Utah | Registered: 23 February 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I just got a couple rifles back from the engraver..NO..IT WAS NOT Scrollcutter!

One, a LH Dakota and the other a pre 64 M-70. The lettering on the barrel was beatifully executed, but was 90 degrees off to the right....So...when barrel installed, about half the lettering was exposed above the woodline...and of course, upside down.

Phooey! I'm really thinking new barrels, because of the resulting inletting gap if I tried to file off the lettering and then there's the issue of unequal wall thickness.

If I set back the barel 1/4 turn, lettering would be on top and inletting appearance probably would not really suffer much since I had not put an abrupt transition from shank to start of taper.

Of course, that leaves the existing extractor slot at 12 o'clock. Steve Button came up with the idea of using plastic steel to fill the old slot, then of course, cut new slot, face off, deepen chamber, etc.

Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway.

Am I missing anything?


That plastic steel idea doesn't sound "Duane" to me!!!!! It sounds like something I would on a rifle I just wanted to shoot some and didn't care about.
 
Posts: 1700 | Location: USA | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I don't know how deep and wide the lettering is, but is it possible to peen it enough to then file and polish a bit? That would probably work with "light" engraved lettering but machine cut would be too deep.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
 
Posts: 838 | Location: Randleman, NC | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Forrest?
 
Posts: 1301 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
If I set back the barel 1/4 turn, lettering would be on top and inletting appearance probably would not really suffer much since I had not put an abrupt transition from shank to start of taper.


Duane
I have to agree with 22wrf. I would sure not want anything noticeable on my Wiebe rifle.

My preferred fix would be to turn down a the portion of the shank that has the engraving, then turn a sleeve that will press-fit over the turned portion. Then turn down the sleeve to match the strait shank of portion of the barrel. You will now have a barrel with no lettering on the shank. If done properly I doubt the joint would be noticeable.

Then you can have it re-engraved, hopefully right side up...
Wink


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6842 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 22WRF:
If I saved up my nickles and dimes for 20 years so that I could commission a Wiebe Rifle, I wouldn't want any compromises. I would want what the Wiebe name stands for, which is superb quality in a custom rifle.



SCRAP!! is what the tubes are now....replace them.


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Posts: 7361 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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If I were the customer I would expect a replacment....not rework.
 
Posts: 1999 | Location: Memphis, TN | Registered: 23 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
That plastic steel idea doesn't sound "Duane" to me!!!!! It sounds like something I would on a rifle I just wanted to shoot some and didn't care about.


+1

Re-tube it and have a good long conversation with the engraver...
 
Posts: 7827 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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If I had paid for a custom rifle from a craftsman I would not expect compromises. I would expect near perfection. Nate
 
Posts: 2376 | Location: Idaho Panhandle | Registered: 27 November 2001Reply With Quote
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Good luck with that...if it was mine I would want a new tube. Scrap happens and it cost you time and money X2


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Posts: 7361 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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What a pickle and a sour one at that. I believe the engraver would need a crane to extract the barrel from some opening between the hip pockets. I have seen upside down engraving on a one of a kind crystal decanter (Ultimately sold for a few $'s above a Mason jar) but I doubt this one will work without a new barrel.


Jim
 
Posts: 1210 | Location: Memphis, TN | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With Quote
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Well - for someones who is at the nickle and dime end of the spectrum's 2 cents worth . .

First thanks to Mr Weibe for being bold enough to ask the question, which is of benefit to us all, the mark of a true professional is to admit mistakes happen, then fix them. I always learn a lot from these sorts of discussions.

Secondly maybe consider the engineers old adage "if you can't fix it, feature it".

Thirdly if I was the customer I'd like to be asked how I would like it resolved - if its gonna take 10 weeks to source a new barrel that might change my outlook !
 
Posts: 605 | Location: Southland, New Zealand | Registered: 11 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by AfricanHunter:


That plastic steel idea doesn't sound "Duane" to me!!!!! It sounds like something I would on a rifle I just wanted to shoot some and didn't care about.


Sounds more like another butcher we have on this board but not Duane.
If this engraver was a true Craftsman. He would own up to his mistake and pay for the fouled up part. Now if it was a miscommunication on your part well you need to cover the lose.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JBrown:
My preferred fix would be to turn down a the portion of the shank that has the engraving, then turn a sleeve that will press-fit over the turned portion. Then turn down the sleeve to match the straight shank of portion of the barrel. You will now have a barrel with no lettering on the shank. If done properly I doubt the joint would be noticeable.

Then you can have it re-engraved, hopefully right side up...
Wink


I really don't see what would be wrong with this fix.


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6842 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Well, Duane, I think you have asked the wrong people what to do.

I think what I would do is call the customer, tell him exactly what has occured, then tell him the options you see and that you will give him a couple of days to think it over, and will then call him back again and ask him what HE would like you to do.

(He might even come up with an idea of his own you both could live with.)

One option you could offer might be a considerable reduction in the price charged him if he just accepts it the way it is....that way he can always brag to his friends about the great deal he got from you because a third party f--ked up.

And he could show them a real conversation piece while he's telling them what a great and honest guy you are to deal with.

AC
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Duane

I had basically the same thing happen (mis-spelling). What I done was peen the engraving lightly. Then I draw filed and spun in the lathe to polish and blend. There was no noticeable inletting gap.
In my opinion the is a very acceptable and easy fix for the problem at hand.
What have you got to loose but about a hour of time.

James
 
Posts: 658 | Location: W.Va | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I think what I would do is call the customer, tell him exactly what has occured, then tell him the options you see and that you will give him a couple of days to think it over, and will then call him back again and ask him what HE would like you to do.
AC




You can't be serious. Call the owner up.....what!!!

This is a case of miscommunication. Either misinterpretation by the engraver or poor directions from the gunbuilder.

There are no options- deliver what you were contracted to make, not a lessor product for your convenience...........ooops forget common business ethics does not apply to the gun business.

Call the owner my ass. And frankly to **** rig a fix is unprofessional and chickenshit......

Someone needs to bite the bullet for their mistake, certainly not the owner.

The only call the owner SHOULD HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED is an explanation as to the delay.

PS I just love Mark Stokeld's signature:

*** A gunmaker who fixes American Custom Gunmakers
Guild smiths' fuckups***





There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others.
 
Posts: 1446 | Location: El Campo Texas | Registered: 26 July 2004Reply With Quote
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They need new barrels. Period.
 
Posts: 2659 | Location: Southwestern Alberta | Registered: 08 March 2003Reply With Quote
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What caliber? I have a krieger .308 bbl and maybe a 7mm.
 
Posts: 3770 | Location: Boulder Colorado | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 22WRF:
Was there really ever any question about this?

Premier gunmakers like Duane Wiebe and a few others didn't get to be "premire" by letting less than their best out the door regardless of whose fault it was. Thats what makes them "premire".

Any craftsman or businessman knows that a few bucks lost to satisfy a good customer will come back in the long run in the form of new business and referrals.



Yes there was.

Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway.

Just like many a person, he shouldn't have pressed "POST NOW"

Premiere gunsmiths wouldn't have asked for a "quick fix."



They wouldn't have posted anything if not other than a "this is what happened to me, look out for........"

You wouldn't see that from Echols, Holehan, Sisk, etc.........but then again they're not ACGG members either.

ACGG stands for S H I T in my books. 5 out of 6 rifles had to be fixed from competent smiths. 3 of which wouldn't feed. I guess I forgot to mention they were actually going to be used and not just fondled.

Now I found out the G33/40 I recently sold also had feed issues (I guess that would make 6 out of 7 projects then). Anyone remember the Acura commercial I so fondly love....

What's that lawyer joke that can be applied here.......too bad that 99% of them make the 1% look bad

Again, I just loved Stokel's sig. so much I made it my own.....Wink




There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others.
 
Posts: 1446 | Location: El Campo Texas | Registered: 26 July 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J_Zola:
Forrest?


It should have been obvious that it wasn't one of my projects when Duane posted this asinine idea:

quote:
Steve Button came up with the idea of using plastic steel to fill the old slot, then of course, cut new slot, face off, deepen chamber, etc.

Frankly, I can't see anything too haywire about the idea..then again, I'm looking for a relatively easy fix anyway.


The guys (a father and son) who bought these rifles are good friends of mine and they will be getting new barrels fitted. Duane doesn't have much to learn about gun building but he apparently has a lot to learn about posting "shit that's swirling around inside my head" when he's upset.


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Posts: 5052 | Location: Muletown | Registered: 07 September 2001Reply With Quote
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FMC -

I agree completely that a "quick fix" is not the way to go.

But as that was what was being asked about, I did not think it was appropriate it should be asked of anyone other than the owner of the gun who had contracted for the work. I believe openness with customers is the best policy, especially if contemplating delivering an even slightly substandard product...which ANY buckshee fix would be.

I'm sorry it got you upset, but then I was shocked at the number of folks who had suggestions of how best to hide the flaw. Hiding flaws (mistakes) is not kosher to me. Better the customer should have the options, if a less than top quality job is to be delivered.

Personally, I'm glad to hear Duane had already discussed the occurance with the customer and was just asking for opinions about the what folks saw as the least objectionable of some poor options.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by FMC:

........but then again they're not ACGG members either.

ACGG stands for S H I T in my books. 5 out of 6 rifles had to be fixed from competent smiths. 3 of which wouldn't feed. I guess I forgot to mention they were actually going to be used and not just fondled.



Are these guys still guild members?

If not, maybe for good reason.

I've been burned by a guild member as well. However, now they are no longer a member. Chalk one up for the ACGG tu2


gunmaker
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Posts: 1862 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
The guys (a father and son) who bought these rifles are good friends of mine and they will be getting new barrels fitted. Duane doesn't have much to learn about gun building but he apparently has a lot to learn about posting "shit that's swirling around inside my head" when he's upset.


Made me laugh...still, I have empathy for Duane. Doesn't ever feel good to be "tween a rock and a hard spot".


Roger Kehr
Kehr Engraving Company
(360)456-0831
 
Posts: 1634 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 29 December 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:


Customers know relief from engraver is probably not an option.




This statement concerns me.......if he/she fucked it up he/she should make it right. If he/she doesn't see it that way then I would never use or recommend them again.
 
Posts: 1361 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 07 February 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MHC_TX:
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:


Customers know relief from engraver is probably not an option.




This statement concerns me.......if he/she fucked it up he/she should make it right. If he/she doesn't see it that way then I would never use or recommend them again.


An SOB that operates a business like that should be out of business.

If you can't stand behind your work you shouldn't be doing it.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Hiding flaws (mistakes) is not kosher to me.


Exactly.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's how you respond to them them that matters- both yours and others.


Hey Joe, the engraver fucked up.....blah blah blah. You know I could blah blah blah.....but that wouldn't be right. I just want to let you know I went ahead and ordered another barrel. I hope that doesn't screw you up....

Some people wouldn't even consider covering up a mistake, they'd just chunk it and start over (the right thing to do). Unfortunately craftsman like that are far and few between.

I guess it's OK to think of a work around (human nature), but ultimately the conclusion should be to chunk it. No attempt to do work around.

It is NOT OK to talk a client into a shoddy job/substandard work.




There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others.
 
Posts: 1446 | Location: El Campo Texas | Registered: 26 July 2004Reply With Quote
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If you think I was suggesting he talk the client into a lesser job, you ARE DEAD WRONG.

I was suggesting he let the client know what happened and let the client know that he will make it good as gold. Making it good in the client's eyes, not ours, that is.

Options can include - a rebarrel and re-engraving, and many other things.

If it has been a long time on order, the client's interests may have changed anyhow and he may be experiencing buyer's remorse. If that is the case, he may welcome a way to get the thing done so he has an effective rifle, but without all the original costs.

Anyway, I never suggested that the gunmaker talk the client into anything less than he originally ordered and the gunmaker had agreed to deliver. I think THAT kind of wheedling effort would be very shabby indeed.

Edited to add....anyway, I am pleased to hear the client and Duane have resolved the issue. If they are both happy, I see no reason we shouldn't be too.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by FMC:
Just like many a person, he shouldn't have pressed "POST NOW"


Interesting coming from a guy who reached "A- Hole" about two posts ago.....
Big Grin
It looks like the customer picked this engraver, so maybe he should go with the upside down lettering?


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6842 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by FMC:
ACGG stands for S H I T in my books. 5 out of 6 rifles had to be fixed from competent smiths. 3 of which wouldn't feed. I guess I forgot to mention they were actually going to be used and not just fondled.


If you purchased a SIXTH rifle from ACGG members after having at least 4 out of 5 that were no good, you should not be advertising your lack of judgement. IMHO.


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6842 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
KCSTOTT: Please read the whole sentence...."Probably" should probably say something

Certain fators are just simply unknown to others and it will stay that way.

Not even the customers are screaming for his head on a platter. The remainder of the work is top drawer.

The lettering location was wrong and could not have been in a worse spot..Now we have a domino effect..that's a given.

My original question could not have been asked if I didn't have some sort of preamble to explain the reason for the question.


Probably means you are expecting to be told to go pound sand or something a little milder but you are still not expecting the engraver to make good on his work. If you do you'd fell lucky. That is now way to get a finished part from someone. Tell the engraver theres a mistake. Tell the customer there is a delay. But on a rifle that costs as much as they do from you The customer expects no compromises. That said I stand by my original statement.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Who the hell deleted my post wherein I called FMC a racist? Seems he went back and edited his post?

Mods?

If your gonna censor at least have the balls to tell me you deleted my post!




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4865 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by FMC:

Call the owner my ass. And frankly to n****r rig a fix is unprofessional and chickenshit......


Since the moderator has not said anything I will
That kind of language is not appropriate for this board. And we'd all appreciate it if you would not use such a term in the future


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I guess he didn't edit his post, I just went temporarily blind.

Thanks!




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4865 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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This is easy to fix with low temp silver solder and a small chunk of steel. Fit it into the cut, solder and machine it to fit. Then use it for a lesser rifle...

There is no rework or repair option good enough for one of Duane's rifles.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I agree with Mike and Kerry concerning FMC's use of a term that most people find highly offensive. That kind of language has no place on this forum and should not be used here.

That said, I kinda like "c**t"..... Wink
 
Posts: 2366 | Location: "Land OF Shining Mountains"- British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 20 August 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dewey:
I agree with Mike and Kerry concerning FMC's use of a term that most people find highly offensive. That kind of language has no place on this forum and should not be used here.

That said, I kinda like "c**t"..... Wink


I kinda liked your Anglo Saxon reference too!




Aut vincere aut mori
 
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