Gentlemen,

This topic is getting creepy. Let's all wait for a response from Jack Belk or some personal contact on the specific topic of delivery and communications.

I was reading some post's on another forum a while back, and recall a smith here in Kentucky that had a heart attack. And I recall several people that had sent him rifle's to have work done, what happened in the end was not good for some of the customers.

My opinion: If you have to send your firearm off for work to be done, use a larger company, with more than one person in the company. There should be some one to talk to on the phone no matter what happen's to the leed smith.

Nothing is a sure thing, even larger outfit's can go bankrupt.

If you use a smith ( one man crew), try to find one close to home, You can see some of his work while you are there and wont be that hard to find if some thing doesnt seem right.

There are several smiths on this site, John Ricks beeing one of them that still have a few minutes out of a buisy day to type a few word's on the PC.

By the way John, nice pictures of your shop!

I have to talk to people every day , whether I want to or not.
Being a smith full time or part time does not give them the right to ignore a client. No matter how far they are behind. 8 to 10 hr's a day is the same for everyone, if your a smith, surgeon, fire fighter or what ever. I find it hard to beleive that nobody has time after work not to make or answer a few telephone calls.

And no, I am not trying to badger Mr. Belk, only trying to look at it from a buisness point of veiw, Buisness is buisness when money is involved no matter who they are.

[ 10-11-2003, 20:01: Message edited by: gsp ]

Brian like I said Jacks case seems a little excessive, I to would be apprehensive at this point and wonder what really is going on, about the only excuse in your case for Jack not replying would be being abducted by aliens and being held in a Galaxy where cell phones have no reception! I have been in similiar situations with vendors and I can say I was very concerned to say the least. I hope your situation is resolved VERY soon as you have been more than patient.

Jack Belk is a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. The ACGG has an Ethics Committee available to help in disputes with its members. The organization can be contacted at:

Central Office: Jan Billeb, Executive Director
Mailing Address:
22 Vista View Dr
Cody, WY 82414-9606

Telephone: (307) 587-4297

Fax: (307) 587-4297

E-mail: acgg@acgg.org

The process is somewhat complicated so don't expect a sudden result from a single phone call. The process has been successful in many cases. I'd sure rather a complaintent use this course of action rather than publically flog the individual.
Steven Dodd Hughes

Steve,
It was not my intention to "publicly flog" Jack-my intention was to try to find out whats going on.Since he won't answer e-mail or his phone,my choices are pretty damn slim when it comes to getting some info on what's going on.

I will resort to playing detective and I will call his buddy Ray Atkinson on Monday morning.

Brian.

The process has been successful in many cases. I'd sure rather a complaintent use this course of action rather than publically flog the individual.

Steven

I remember Jack telling someone on one of these boards to use it once. I also would like to see something like this used rather than hashing it out in public like it has been going. I sympathize with anyone who has money or firearms involved in this scenario, and you have at least given them an avenue that could possibly prove fruitful. Many thanks for pointing out that info again.

Brian you're not the asswipe over on 24hourcampfire,that goes by the name wheel chair buttfuck are you?

The power of the internet.....

Many times there is simple explanation for what is going on. The question in my mind is how many potential customers are won or lost by a thread like this. If you read a thread like this on a prospective gunsmith, what would your reaction be?

Thats me sweetcheeks.

Now go find somewhere else to do your trolling.

WB.

Trolling,that's anyone that says something that you don't like brian.

Its always interesting,when some pussy like you brian,comes on a forum and cries about not being able to find someone like Belk. Then you're given ways to actually get ahold of the guy and all you do is whine some more. The fact is you just wanted to post your dirty laundry on the net.You're not interested in actually contacting Belk,because anybody with common sense would have been able to fairly easy. No brian,you just want to cry like the little bitch you are,when given ideas of how to actually contact the guy and keep stupid shit like this thread off the forum.

Belk will be back on the forums acting like he didn't have a clue what was going on,or he'll have some other lame excuse.

Anybody that has time to post 5 or 6000 posts in a year or less,sure as shit isn't working very hard or doing much gunsmithing.

[ 10-13-2003, 21:24: Message edited by: RMK ]

Here's a link to the thread where someone used the ACGG ethics committee to solve a dispute:

http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=006291

[ 10-13-2003, 21:17: Message edited by: Need Just 1 More Gun ]

This is a verbatim cut and paste of the last email I had from Jack.

"Jim---

I got your message and can do your work. Let me know when the actions come in and when to expect them. Sorry I've been out of touch.... VERY spotty internet access and bursitis in both shoulders, but getting better.

JB"

That was Sept. 9th and I too have not been able to reach him since. I've emailed him and just this last minute I called his number. It rings and his voice is on the answering machine but so far have not heard back from him.

FWIW - everybody has their own opinions of Jack and I won't try to sway anyone. But I spent an hour talking to him at a Boise gunshow a few months ago and he seemed like a stand up guy. I know, an hour doesn't reveal much, but he was very helpful and my "BS" alarm was not going off like it does at about every 5th table one walks by at gunshows.

I just hope he is all right.

Gentlemen:

I don't know Jack very well and don't know what his situation is right now [or if it has changed], but my experience with him might help assuage some fears until we can hear something definitive. Last year Jack helped me hunt down a Kimber 82 trigger sear and was very helpful. He also machined a part for me. I had to practically beg him to take money for his work. He flatly refused my offer to pay him for his time trying to track down the trigger sear. We communicated numerous times by phone and e-mail with no difficulties.

Hopes this situation works itself out to everyone's benefit.

Jordan

I'm back. And with a little information that might help with clearing Jack's, at this moment, questionable reputation. Jack is Jack. Meaning-well, Jack, like alot of very gifted individuals, works on a time frame a little different from the rest of us. He doesn't mean to cause grief to his customers (I also am one who has been patiently waiting for the return of my firearm, sent 05-24-03), in the delay of the repairs. He, as with others in the same craft, mean well but get caught up taking on entirely too many projects at one time. The results of which are delays we on more timely schedules have a hard time dealings with. I might suggest that we give Jack the understanding I hope he deserves, set back, have a cool one, hot cup of coffee, or whatever and shoot another gun, if we hopefully own another. If not, it's a good reason to buy another one! It's Whitetail time here in Sunny Kansas and Pheasant and Quail time just around the corner! Life is Good!! Mike

RMK,
I won't even dignify that shit you wrote with an answer.Go back to the Big Game forum and pick and fight with someone who doesn't know better.

Jim In Idaho,
The last e-mail I recived from Jack was right around the 9th as well.Another poster here claims to have corresponded with Jack since then,and another person who contacted me via e-mail got the same story as I did from Jack about two weeks ago.

WB.

[ 10-14-2003, 06:40: Message edited by: Brian M ]

Over at HA, Swamp posted that he spoke to Jack on the phone last night. The thread is titled: "Jack Belk Update".

[ 10-14-2003, 16:56: Message edited by: Glen71 ]

And "Flip-Flop" Mikey is back. The more I dig into this the better/worse it gets. It seems someone who has contacted Jack Belk in the last day or two related to me this morning that Jacks having trouble getting my firarm back together. In fact, he's having trouble with a coule of guns. On one hand I say, "Give ole' Jack the benefit of the doubt", and then I hear a horror story of him having some guys gun for TWO YEARS, and I say, "You've got to be kidding"? What steps I've taken to get to the bottom of my personal dealing with Jack I'll not mention here on the forum. If I ever get to talk personally with him or have any further information that will shed light on the situation I'll post it. Reminds me of the Cartoon years ago with the vulture setting up on the limb of a tree and the caption underneath, "Patience My Ass, I'm Gonna Go Kill Something!" Later, Mike

I think that Mark Twain's observation that god was disapointed in the monkeys is right on the money. The monkey cage ain't half as entertaining as the Human Zoo! I like those old wittisisms and sayings. Couple of my favorites- "Never let yur alligator mouth overload yur tadpole tail" Pogoism from an east texas sailor buddy, and "If ya can't pay cash, steal it." From Roy Will Allen, early Alaskan Philosopher.
W Alex

I may have mislead some on the "one-eyed Jack" bit. I have no idea wheter or not the item was even delivered. I was referring to my donation which should have amounted to a sizeable percentage of the surgery cost. From what I understand, it was Saaed who paid for the surgery; what happened to the rest of the money, mine included, that was donated and not accounted for. I feel it may have been used on a "...double breasted mattress thrasher..." or worse, some mind altering substance. Please don't come down too harshly on me, I think the truth is out there and will come out eventually.

I don't care to stand in judgement on this subject, but certain aspects of this situation bother me a great deal, including the "One-Eyed-Jack" fund.

It seems as though communication is possible and even ongoing with selected individuals, but not with others - such as guys with paid deposits and undelivered, but promised, work on order.

Also, if the computer doesn't work, and if long-distance phone calls are cost-prohibitive, how about a simple letter or postcard to update clients about the status of their orders?

Heck, a couple of years ago I experienced a computer crash, and so until a replacement computer arrived at my office, I went to the local library and used their computer for e-mails, transcripts, etc. It worked!

In this day and age, if there's a WILL to communicate with anyone, there's a WAY to communicate with anyone........

AD

Jim,
Just to set the record straight: I have the one eyed jack for stocking and so it was delivered. I do not know what the contributions such as yours amounted to but I understand it was close the the cost of the surgery in itself. I had heard that Saeed offered to pay for the surgery and Jack declined the offer. Jack reported on HA that he found a doctor in Colorado or Utah that agreed to do the surgery for future gun work and that was how the operation was "paid" for. This is offered only as known facts and not as "Jack bashing". I consider him a friend, but one who is straining a relationship and I have no defense for the way he is acting.

Allen, you make excellent points regarding the lack of communicaton on Jack's part. There is no excuse for being silent.

Jack, if you read this and I suspect that you will, it is time to step up to the plate.

At this point, Brian knows his options and has to choose what he's to do about it basically. I'd sure like to know what his excuse is for not shipping his rifle that was finished long ago. I surely won't be sending anything to Jack in the future, and I appreciate the heads up too. Obviously Jack's being very selective who he is communicating with, has access to a computer and is probably reading this too. He has his reasons for not contacting these people and is his choice to, or not. You want to make excuses for him on his behalf, be my guest, I surely wouldn't want you to for me if I had behaved like that, and would completely understand if you said it like it was. Question you got to ask yourself is, do you expect people to be that "understanding" with you too? Jack has created a lack of, and sense of responsiblity issue for himself, no one else did that for him.

Jack's always been helpfull to me, and I admire his knowledge and skill just as much as the next guy. Don't get me wrong Jack, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt in that you seem to be a nice guy, helpfull and generous to most, but I'd rather not be trusting you when it comes to following through on you word to do something at this point, blame me if you want, that's the way it is. Hope you learn to deal with your affairs better in the future, for your sake and others too.

The biggest problem with this whole thing is the silence. If Jack would just return letters, phone calls, or post a single message with what is going on many of us would/might be put at ease ... I suspect/maybe. It is obvious that many of us, me included, have projects with Jack. I suspect we are all fairly patient guys who would be happy to wait a little longer than promised for good work provided we were kept informed. It is the not knowing and not being able to find out that gets us all upset. Silence is not golden.

It does no good to send a registerd or certified letter. Tried that... just sat at the post office until they returned it to me. Also sent a regular letter with a self addressed stamped envelope and a return letter where he only needed to check the approriate boxes and list cost and delivery date to either continue work or settle up and ship as is. Nothing ... nada ... zippo. After getting the certified letter back I was told everything was done to the action just waiting on the barrel. Have not been able to reach him since (about a month).

I too may try Ray but he may not want to be put in the middle of this. And I would not blame him.

The down side is that if the silence continues there are not many options left open. And none of those a nice options.

Hope the rest of you acheive adequate resolution. I too will keep trying. I do hope Jack reads this. As it serves noone for things to get uglier. I guess I will be looking elsewhere if I decide to rebarrel my K98.

Jack Belk has been around a long time. If you gents catch up with him, ask him why he disappeared from Florida years ago? Better yet, start your detective work on when he lived in Florida long ago.

Brian,
Sorry to hear your dilemma, I hope everything works out for you.

MtnHtr

Don't call me in reference to Jack, it's not my affair....Its between the customer and Jack solely....

I agree with Ray.

A person would have to be a damn fool to get in the middle of this one, or any other one for that matter.

I'm fairly new to this forum and don't know Jack Belk, Ray Atkinson, etc., etc. but this is the darndest thread I have ever read!

Ray's right. Only a fool would get involved in this witchunt.

MtnHtr

If you've got something to say spit it out. Stop trying to be coy and mysterious.

I would like to know what MtnHtr knows also.

Gentlemen,

How about we let this unfortunate subject wither and die! Bitching and innuendo do nothing.

Nothing.

If something positive were to come out of this it might be a different story, but we are all grown ups here and by now we should realize that what needs to be done (namely Brian getting his rifles back promptly with the work that he paid for done on them) is not going to get resolved any more quickly by the furtherance of this thread.

To further stir up this pot of muck, now someone is getting dragged into it simply because he lives nearby and doesn't want to get involved. Sounds like a reasonable wish to me, and certainly not deserving of any "birds of a feather" innuendo. Unless you mean "birds of a feather" to imply that both are knowledgeable people and do damn fine work on guns.

This forum is supposed to be about gunsmithing, and now we know there are risks associated with sending your guns out, and apparently no smith is immune from making mistakes, no matter how skilled and talented he is. Of course I said apparently there, since nobody actually knows what is really going on. So let those who can offer Brian some help do so privately and the rest of us can wait to see what really happened and what the outcome is.......

If anyone still feels like complaining, there are plenty of posters in the politics forum who would be glad to keep you company, but now that the point has been made we really don't need any more of it in here, do we?

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mark White

MarkWhite,
That may be your 2 cents worth as you say but quite a few of these folks have I would guess well over a thousand riding on the topic of this thread. If it bothers you to read it then I suggest that you park your butt at the politics forum and argue there. Some good may come of it and it may be that someone does respond. Their problem is that they are not getting any communication and this is one possible route of communication.

It sounds like a mess. I'm glad I am reading this post, I was considering have him work on a Montana Action, No way in hell now. Good luck getting your rifles back!!!!!

Frank D

I have had this happen to me twice (other 'smiths) and I found a solution both times.

The Nuclear Bomb in dealing with a Gunsmith is the BATF.
The 'smith is required to keep a working phone number, and a "real" place of business.

When this happened to me, I contacted the Gunsmith in question, and told him unless I got my firearms back (and unfinished was ok), I would contact the BATF and report "theft by conversion".

Most of us on enthusiast side of firearms don't care much for the BATF. But let me say this on their behalf: they really LOVE to get involved with people who are stealing firearms.
At the very best, a gunsmith without a working phone would have his FFL yanked.
A complaint of theft by conversion would mean a wholescale inspection of the facility.

Worked for me....

Garrett

Talked to another gunsmith at Brownell's yesterday morning about this situation (and my individual problems with Mr. Belk), and asked if I would be out of line calling the American Custom Gunsmith Guild to register a formal complaint. He stated that in no way would it be out of line and he was a little surprised that Mr. Belk had gotten behind in his work this way. I haven't called ACGS yet and have tried numerous times to call Mr. Belk since yesterday but to no avail. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and have been reluctant to take more agressive steps to conclude my transaction with Mr. Belk. I want to thank N. Garrett for posting the possible answer to my (and others) problem. That is what these forums are for Mark White unless you haven't figured it out. Getting answers to problems concerning shooting, guns, and related topics, sharing experiences and comradreship, not trying to be RIGHT or prove someones ignorance, just fellowship and the love of our pastime. I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather lose my Kreighoff Drilling rather than bring the ATF into this??? The tuff decisions of life. Here goes the fifty cent piece in the air again. Later, Mke

If anyone wants to contact me concerning this,my e-mail is-
mayes@tidepool.com

I'll give Jack another day or two to let this thread sink in.If I don't hear from him,I'll be calling either the Gunsmith's Guild,the BATF,or both.

Did you hear that Jack?

Brian.

Brian M

Where did you ship your guns to? Address?
To my knowledge Jack B.does not have a FFL.

James

The address I mailed the rifles to is the same one that has been listed earlier in this thread.

I'll give Jack another day or two.Maybe the thought of having the BATF knocking at his door will wake him up.

WB.