Well not knowing where to put this, I guess here is a good of a place as any....

Funny, but a lot of people think I send a lot of time overloading ammo... and then I get a box of 223s from Black Hills and one round, blew up a Ruger 77 Mk 2 Sporter... enough to crack the stock... I wasn't hurt... but the incident was ironic to say the least...

But here is where I am asking for your guys opinions, and any experiences you gents may have...

I boxed up the action, after removing the barrel and sent the action and bolt back to Ruger to look at.. Originally I was just going to send the bolt, as some sort of spring got bent, but they wanted me to send the action also...

So I sent it back and then I just got a letter back from them.... which I will just paraphrase it for convenience's sake...

" We examnied the above referenced firearm and concluded that it is beyond repair and needs to be replaced. Our conclusion is that the firearm was damaged as a result of severe overpressure. We understand the frustration that may be experienced in an accident such as this, and as a gesture of good will, we are willing to replace the firearm at a charge of $355.13.."

While some may consider this a generous offer, I am not exactly impressed....the bolt had a part on it that is easily replaced...I see no problems with the receiver... but then I don't have microscopic inspection ability....

I also don't think Ruger is doing this to just sell more firearms either...

However, with their offer, I take a look at some of their competitor's offerings and price, I am leaning toward just telling them to return the action, and have a local gunsmith repair the bolt...

For the $355.13 they propose, I can get a new rifle from Savage for $350.00, a new Stevens for $279.00 and a new Howa 1500 for $399.00....

This Ruger was a plain old wood stock, blued barrel and action version...

Repairing this action and bolt, and have it inspected by a local gunsmith for solidness.. or weakness... If it was weakened, I think putting the money into a Savage or Howa and rendering this Ruger to service in a lighter pressure load service life... like loading 223's to 22 Hornet velocities or even 22 Mag...

I sent it to Ruger for repair as someone on the forum told me that Ruger usually repaired rifles that got torn up by overloads for fairly low cost, or just replaced it...But by this, I am not overly impressed, since their competitors can give me a more generally accurate firearm, for less money.....Call me cheap, but at the same price... why would I go with Ruger's offer????

to I ask you gents for your opinions or perspectives... any real experiences would be great...

Thanks and cheers
seafire

Ive shot several 50 rd boxes of black hills 223 through my CZ 527.

Why did you remove the barrel from the reciever?

GSP;

I have shot many a box of Black Hills thru my rifles over the years and never ever have had a problem...Actually, I rate the consistency in their products higher than I rate Remington, Winchester, & Federal.....

Just a bad one is bound to slip thru the cracks...with the millions that they load...

However, I scrapped the rest of the box anyway...

The barrel was removed from the action by me, afterwards, as this rifle has a new barrel on order for it anyway, with a longer length and faster twist.....

So I sent just the action back to Ruger...why send the barrel and stock and pay the extra shipping charges for the extra weight...

so it was just coincidence, nothing more or nothing less...

My experience with Ruger has been poor.

HOWA

I'm actually surprised that they stood behind it at all, being BH ammo. I know, but technically they are a remanufacturer. (FWIW, I love BH ammo, so that's not my point).

I'm afraid that we've become spoiled by expecting manufacturers (i.e. Ruger in this case, and especially Leupold!) to fix, for free, and with a smile, problems that honestly aren't theirs to begin with. If it was due to an overpressure situation, Ruger really isn't at fault. So why should they eat it?

If Ruger can provide documentation as to the overpressure situation testing that led them to believe it, you would be more appropriate in talking to Black Hills rather than Ruger.

Not trying to flame you, I just think that when a company really isn't at fault, and stands by that, we don't have much right to "bash" them for not giving us what we want for free.

Seafire:

Since you're apparently not going to ask Black Hills for compensation, the only real decision is do you want a new rifle for approximate wholesale? If it were me, I'd consider it pretty strongly if I wanted another Ruger. I'd be bit shy of rifle that had been stressed as much as yours apparently was even if it was put back whole. That's just a gut reaction, not based on any real science though.

Has Ruger said they won't replace the missing or damaged parts? OTOH, if you aren't enamored with Rugers to start with, I'd consider a Howa or a used Savage (which can be found dirt cheap with a little shooping around), both are likely to shoot better than a Ruger in my experience. I keep reading of these people who have Rugers that are tack drivers, I must be unlucky when I get one with the exception of one 20 year old 220 Swift.

Ask them what testing they did and to send the engineers report, it is very possible that the action has stress fractures in the receiver ring and may have even suffered bolt set back.

If you do ask for it back, they will probably include a letter, stating they will not honor any warranty and that you use the action at your own peril since they have determined the action to be unsafe.

With Ruger's letter in hand and the suspect box of ammunition, should you still have it, contact BH and see what they are willing to do, they might be willing to help, especially, if they are aware of a problem with that particular lot of ammunition.

As far as Ruger's offer, if you already have a barrel on the way and you cannot get anything out of BH, I would probably take them up on the offer, at least you would have no worries about the action, being stressed.

I would contact BH and let them know what happened. IMHO I don't think Ruger will send you the damaged action back. They are too worried about lawsuits to have an action like that going back into service, letter or no letter.

Ruger for libility isn't going to fix it.

Are they willing to send it back to you unfixed.

The price offered is really close to whole sale on their guns. So its not bad at all.

I don't see what the trouble with ruger is you blew wp one of their guns. They make a resonable offer to you and you don't like it.

I don't think this a Ruger issue and their offer is very generous. I'd be knocking on BH's door.

Decide which rifle you like the best for your $350 and go with that. I would not fix the broken one for any caliber as you may not be the last person to own it.

Guys,
I completely destroyed a Ruger P97 45acp pistol that I shot reloads in. I bought the reloads from a guy at work. I sent the pistol back to Ruger and they sent me a brand new pistol no questions asked. The gun dealer that sent the gun back for me included a note that stated I shot reloads along with my name and phone number, they never called me. Bryan

quote:

and then I get a box of 223s from Black Hills and one round, blew up a Ruger 77 Mk 2 Sporter... enough to crack the stock...

Why didn't you send back the remaining ammo to Black Hills for testing?

In any event, I'd get back the action from Ruger, screw on the barrel, fit the stock back on and then shove the muzzle in the ground and use it as a fencepost!

I would seriously doubt whether Ruger would send you back that action with their name on it. You could sell it to somone else and they, not knowing the background, could get injured. I agree that you should talk to Black Hills, if you can somehow justify your assertion that it was their ammo that caused the "overpressure".
Peter.

i'm with peter. i would doubt that ruger would send you back the action. i would also doubt that they actually checked or tested anything. you sent them back an incomplete major part of a rifle with a tale of excessive pressure and they won't stick their neck out to say it is ok.
keep us posted, i would be amazed if you get your action back easily.

Well guys,

thanks for the feed back... Sorry I didn't do it all the way a few of you gentlemen would do it...

a good point being made that maybe we as consumers expect too much from manufacturers being spoiled in this industry...

one the other end, 7 x57 points out the replacement of a Ruger Pistol at NO Charge.. I am sure they treated the dealer better than the end user.. I am in sales so I know that program well...

a lot of good info here, and thanks to all that offered it...

They have indicated that if I don't respond in 12 days, that they will automatically return the action anyway...

I just re assemble it and it will spend the rest of its existance as a 223, at 22 Mag or 22 Hornet velocities... which will be pretty low pressure anyway.... but I am going to call them and see exactly why they are calling it scrap metal....

I am also going to contact Black Hills ammo and let them know.. I still have the box of ammo that it came in...and yeah, I should have saved the rest, but after it exploded the action, my first reaction was to get rid of the stuff so it didn't cause any more problems...

thanks again and I will post a summary of what takes place.. I am also going to call on the replacement barrel and see if I can get it cut to put on an action from another brand...

cheers
seafire

seafire/B17G

Contact Black Hills and tell them want happened, ask them to liaise with Ruger, hopefully Black Hills are interested to read the reports etc. You are the customer and it's their duty to sort things out in the best possible way….. I would ask for a full monetary refund or a generous voucher and compensation products…

Sending a link to this topic might also help them haul butt

Cheers
/JOHAN

One would think that Ruger would record the serial # and send it back to him. If something should happen again down the road with this gun they would have the serial # to show that the gun had been there before and what they had previsouly found.

Seafire, how many rounds of your handloads went through this rifle?

Was it purchased new or second hand?

My experience with Ruger's customer service on the several occasion's I needed their help has been stellar and generous.

seafire,
please don't take this as a rebuke, I am just asking a what if...

what if the blackhills ammo was sized and loaded to MINIMUM specs, and after an unknown level of reloading (again, not trying to insult or imply) at what some think has high or daring pressures, the rifle had a failure with the BH loading, assuming some damage had occured to the rifle?

Ruger will send the action back.. they have no legal recourse to confisate it.

jeffe

I had a pressure event with a Ruger M77 MkII, though not at the same level of yours. I have begun to wonder if their freebore is set up properly.

As I understand freebore, it should be the groove depth of the barrel, so, for example, a 30-06 freebore should be 0.300 for a 0.308 groove diameter. If they're mistakenly doing freebore at 0.308, there could be problems, along with really good accuracy. This could be possible if Ruger's hammer-forging the chamber at the same time as the barrel, rather than using a reamer to cut the chamber.

Are you able to measure the freebore on your rifle, just for kicks and grins, and for the sake of ruling it out?

Jaywalker

Write Ruger to decline their "kind" offer and tell them you fix the gun yourself. I bet they send you a new rifle at no charge.

don't send all that "BH" ammo back. State you're saving a few rounds for your lawyer.

Well, after an hour on the phone with several of the companies concerned....

I told Ruger to send the action back to me...I am going to get the bolt repaired at a local gunsmith... Ruger told me that it is their policy not to repair any rifle that has been damaged by 'overpressurization'... that is why they told me that they wouldn't have repaired just the bolt without the rest of the rifle, or at least the action back to them....

I hear the words LAWYERSall over that one..... therefore I don't consider Ruger being all difficult or pissy about this....I am just declining their offer of a replacement Ruger at $350.00, when I'd rather invest that money in a Savage or Howa instead...

I'll end up keeping the Ruger in a light duty service as a 22 hornet equivalent...


I also contacted a gentleman by the name of Carl at Black Hills.... He took down the info and I gave him the lot number off of the box...I am also going to send him a copy of the letter from Ruger along with the Box that the ammo came in...I don't know if they will do anything for me.. and I really didn't expect them to do so... as a business person myself, I think it is common courtesy to let someone know of a product failure... so that their QC people can be aware of it....

I also don't have any complaints about Black Hills because of the millions of rounds they produce... a bad one of two is the law of averages.. it was just my bad luck that I got one...

For Brad: I don't know how many handloads have gone thru this rifle, but a lot.. and a lot of ammo has gone thru the barrel... It was bought used...and it did have some trigger issues when I got it, but replacement of the trigger with a Dayton Traister solved that problem... I figured the barrel on this one has had about 10,000 rounds down it... so I had already had a replacement barrel on order for it....The original Ruger barrel kept its accuracy for a long time...NO complaints there either... also NO mishaps other than this in my ownership of the Rifle...


I got the rifle for $300.00 when a gun shop had just taken it in trade and was in the process of moving next door... so they let me have it for what they gave the guy in trade... So I paid $300.00 for the rifle with a 3 x 9 Nikon scope on top of it... So I have no reason to be griping here...It's just with Ruger's offer, at that amount, I'd rather put that money into a Savage or a Howa instead... I own enough Rugers and they are really decent guns....


As for the barrel on order from the Manufacturer for this Ruger.. I called them and they indicated that I could change the barrel order to be chambered and threaded for another rifle... So I am going to have it put on a Model 70 action instead....It alters the time of receipt by a further week out is all...

So I will have the action checked out by a gunsmith... If he says it is damaged and should be junked, then so be it...I'll buy a Savage..with no regrets toward Ruger...If it is usable still, then I will just keep it as a lighter varmint shooting rifle... with the lower velocities of a 218 Bee or so.....

Its turning out to be an education is all.. and education usually costs something... but I certainly got my money's worth out of the original $300.00 I paid for this rifle in the first place...

I even traded off the original 3 x 9 Nikon it came with, with a $50.00 bill and got a 4.5 x 14 Buckmaster with a Mil dot reticle... that was waiting to get mounted on this Ruger when the new barrel came back from the gunsmith.....

Thanks for everyone's feed back!

cheers
seafire

As an addendum to one of the above questions...

About reloads.. Most of the reloads that have gone down this rifle's barrel since I have had it, have been Blue Dot loads with 46 to 55 grains bullets doing about 3200 with the 46 grainers and 2600 fps with the 55 grainers..

Another forum member whom has been down here to shoot sage rats with me several times, ran the forumlas thru his Quick load program and came up with pressures in about the 44 to 45000 CUP range....for those loads...

either take the new rifle offer, a brand new blue/walnut ruger isn't a bad looking rifle, I have the same gun in 22-250 and it shots max reloads at less than 3/4 moa. Or if you really like 223's the best 223 going is CZ. decline the offer and just pick up a new CZ, thats my .02

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:

As I understand freebore, it should be the groove depth of the barrel, so, for example, a 30-06 freebore should be 0.300 for a 0.308 groove diameter. If they're mistakenly doing freebore at 0.308, there could be problems, along with really good accuracy. This could be possible if Ruger's hammer-forging the chamber at the same time as the barrel, rather than using a reamer to cut the chamber.

Jaywalker

I think you've got that backwards...

If you had a .300 freebore and SQUEEZED .308dia bullets through it the bullets would no longer be swaged down to bore diameter and thus incapable of engaging the rifling to any meaningful degree.

Freebore is at GROOVE diameter.

AllanD

[QUOTE]Originally posted by seafire/B17G:


I'll end up keeping the Ruger in a light duty service as a 22 hornet equivalent...
QUOTE]

Just a thought, but if you do not trust the action to function at it's original designed pressure specifications, why take the chance that some day another person comes into posession of it, shoots factory ammo and gets hurt. Maybe it is just me, but if the action is not sound, scrap it. The little money that it is worth does not compare to the cost of the most inexpensive trip to an emergency room.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Write Ruger to decline their "kind" offer and tell them you fix the gun yourself. I bet they send you a new rifle at no charge.

They would if they were dealing with you.

I have paid plenty to get lawyers to say what I have already said, but say it with more gravitas.

Maybe you could make a call....

I would get Blackhills to foot the bill for the new gun. If you do not want it, sell it for what you want. I would not be to ecited to get behind that rifle again. Ruger made a decent offer, Blackhills made the ammo. I would see if they would pony up.

While I am not a big fan on Ruger rifles I find there offer to be fair, in fact more than fair. They have a one year warranty on there rifles and even if it was within the one year period this had nothing to do with there rifle being faulty as it sounds like even you blame it on the ammo.

To say that $350 is as much as a Stevens or Howa is like saying that your Buick broke down and they offered to replace it for a fee but you could buy a Yugo for that same amount. It is not comparing apples to apples.

Did you ask Ruger if you could use the discount they are offering on a different rifle? Perhaps you would like a stainless or a different caliber?

quote:

saying that your Buick broke down and they offered to replace it for a fee but you could buy a Yugo for that same amount. It is not comparing apples to apples.

Yes, so true, except that in this case the "Yugo" (Howa)is a far better rifle (car) than the Ruger (Buick)!

quote:

Originally posted by 7x57:
Guys,
I completely destroyed a Ruger P97 45acp pistol that I shot reloads in. I bought the reloads from a guy at work. I sent the pistol back to Ruger and they sent me a brand new pistol no questions asked. The gun dealer that sent the gun back for me included a note that stated I shot reloads along with my name and phone number, they never called me. Bryan

How long has it been since this happened?

Back in the 70's a friend of mine completely destroyed a Ruger Red Label when he wrecked his ATV. The local gun dealer sent it back to Ruger for repairs. Ruger replied that the shotgun was junk and sent him a new Red Label at no cost knowing that the customer was 100% at fault. I do believe that things have changed and these days are gone.

quote:

AlanD: If you had a .300 freebore and SQUEEZED .308dia bullets through it the bullets would no longer be swaged down to bore diameter and thus incapable of engaging the rifling to any meaningful degree.

Could be.

I may be wrong, but I doubt that Ruger will return the action.

Probably selling you a new rifle at distributor cost.

I've got to side with AZ Pete on this one. If you don't trust it to shoot the loads that it was designed for, why shoot it at all. Damaged goods is damaged goods. Not only that, but they're offering you a new gun for $350 when you've admittedly already put 10,000 rds through the old one. To me, that's not even a decision. So you've got a new barrel on order. I'd rather have a brand spanking new bolt, action, stock, etc. for $350 then hold on to the barrel for a few years and install it after the barrel on the new one goes south. $350 is not that much money, and considering what they're offering it's a steal. I think you're nuts if you don't take it, but each to his own.

My $.02 (and then some)

I am just having Ruger send the action back....

I have changed my order for the replacement barrel to be threaded for a Winchester Model 70 action instead...

NOt sure what I will do with the action, but I personally don't think anything is wrong with it... I did take the bolt out of my Ruger 77 VT and shot about 50 rounds thru it before sending it back to Ruger.. and had no functional problems......

I will have it checked out by a local gunsmith... if he passes judgement on it as good, that will be fine for me... He doesn't have the liability hanging over his head, that a manufacturer has...

I appreciate others opinions, whether contrary to mine or not...

thanks again guys...

How about countering to Ruger that you aren't interested in a whole rifle at wholesale.....

But an action only at wholesale would settle the matter to your full satisfaction?

You are going to rebarrel anyway, and that would give you an excuse to get a custom stock. JMO, Dutch.

I suggested that Dutch, but they didn't want to go that route...

The barrel has been reordered to fit a Winchester Action...I am not going to quit using Rugers.. I am just not going 'down their road' on this one....

Hey, a Howa 1500 or a Stevens and $65.00 plus shipping for a stock from Boyd's... and I have a better gun than the 77 Mk 2.. and better looking....to boot!

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
but I am going to call them and see exactly why they are calling it scrap metal....

What did Ruger say was the problem?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
seafire,

Ruger will send the action back.. they have no legal recourse to confisate it.

jeffe

Jeffe- sometimes Ruger will return an action and sometimes they won't. I have had them keep two of mine and absolutely refuse to return them, though they DID replace both guns free of charge.

In both instances they were guns where the manufacturer (Ruger) was admittedly at fault. Still, they were both VERY low serial number guns which I desperately wanted back in my collection, and they flatly refused to return either one. It will be interesting to me to see if they actually return Seafire's.