1909 Argie, trying to get old barrel off. Hit it with about 4 or 5 shots of Kroil at front and back of threads over about a two week period. Vised it up, applied a little propane heat, (just until hot to touch) but it wouldn't budge. Leaning the better part of my 190 lbs on it with one hand while whacking with a hammer with the other hand.

I then tried the triangle trick that's worked before: Three sided shallow tripod formed with legs the barrel, the action wrench, and a pipe wrench with cheater pipe over the handle. Hold onto something, stand on the apex, jump up and down. Pipe wrench just carved off metal from the barrel like it was cheddar.

Next up, cut off barrel right behind the rear sight and ground some flats in the sides of the stub. Challenging to get them flat enough to keep from spinning in the vise jaws, but once situated I almost tore my bench vise off the bench.

Poured myself a beer and retired to the hot tub after submerging it in a can of old lawnmower gas to give it some time to ponder its wickedness.

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Parting tool just in front of the receiver to the depth of thread.

With a parting tool or hacksaw, cut a relief cut around the barrel shank up close to the front receiver ring. Go a tad deeper than the minor diameter of the threads. That will relieve a lot of the pressure and you can pull that barrel without twisting up your receiver.

No, that won't help; they have no torque at the front of the receiver. Only on the inner shoulder. Which tends to gall especially on the soft 1909s.
Neither will oil, low heat, (If you are going to re-heat treat it, maybe)or anything else, but brute force. And since 1909s are none too hard in the first place, there is a chance of warpage if your wench is not perfect. I use a 30 ton press, no bench vises, and a long cheater bar. They never fail to come off.
Good luck.

Tisk tisk tisk
I showed you how to do that. 9th or 10th post down.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/8671075902/p/5

quote:

Originally posted by Antietamgw:
With a parting tool or hacksaw, cut a relief cut around the barrel shank up close to the front receiver ring. Go a tad deeper than the minor diameter of the threads. That will relieve a lot of the pressure and you can pull that barrel without twisting up your receiver.

Why does this philosophy exist?

1909 barrels were fitted with very tight threads. I always use a good fitting action wrench coupled with a good barrel vise, mine has 4-1/2-28 allen screws and I winch them down tight, Next is a 8lb hammer on the stub of my wrench. It moves but not much, Put a 18" cheater bar on it and wind it off all the way, it is that tight.

Of course Rod's method is more elegant than the "horse" method I use, as usual. But there is no risk of warping the receiver. I have never had one that required milling out the threads, yet. Probably won't now.
Why do people recommend making a relief cut on mausers? Because they have read about making relief cuts on 1917 Enfields and think it will work on a Mauser too.

I think a proper barrel vice would help a lot. Using a bench vise is just not a rigid setup.

I use a Brownells vise that I make aluminum barrel bushings for. After about ten years I stripped out one of the four clamping bolts so I retapped to 9-18. Even the most stubborn barrels relent without too much fuss. The more rigid your setup, the less likely you are to twist a receiver.

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but it doesn't hurt to put the bolt in the receiver to act as back up, to minimize any crushing tendency. Of course, don't put the bolt into battery on guns with an extractor slot in the barrel

Normally a proper barrel vise and wrench will take off just about anything. Proof of that is that I can never recall parting one of Toms P14s or P17s. Only Billy Leepers infuriating Lee Enfields which I refuse to make a wrench for. I have however run into a few Mausers that refused to budge. When a proper barrel vise and action wrench with a pipe on the handle let me down, I cut them out.

(+1 to ALWAYS leaving the bolt in the action to prevent crushing!)

When a proper wrench with a 4 foot handle fails, it's time for a more civilized approach.

action wrench by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but it doesn't hurt to put the bolt in the receiver to act as back up, to minimize any crushing tendency. Of course, don't put the bolt into battery on guns with an extractor slot in the barrel

That is especially true on pre 98 Mausers. The 98's with their internal ring are less prone. Can't tell you how many 96's I've seen that had the lugs drag when you tried to rotate the bolt into battery because whoever pulled the barrel crushed the receiver slightly and made it elliptical instead of round.

I know; back when I was dumb, I removed a barrel from a rare Mauser Oberndorf made Swedish 96. You guessed it, the barrel came off, and the receiver was oval. I got mad and smashed it flat with a BFH. Back then they were cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I know; back when I was dumb, I removed a barrel from a rare Mauser Oberndorf made Swedish 96. You guessed it, the barrel came off, and the receiver was oval. I got mad and smashed it flat with a BFH. Back then they were cheap.

Ok, since confession is supposed to be good for the soul, Duane's reminder to first remove the extractor when removing barrels with extractor slots made me laugh because the first Mauser I removed the barrel from after learning that it was a good idea to leave the bolt in place was a Yugo intermediate. Luckily it was mine but the claw was ripped completely off the extractor. Lesson learned, the hard way. But at least the receiver was still round.

Thanks for all the good ad”vise”…

Just a little clarification, yeah, I could maybe use a better barrel vise: It is a Wheeler of the type sold by Midway. With rosin covered oak blocks it is more than adequate for putting barrels ON. As a hobbiest I just don’t pull enough milsurp barrels to warrant much more.

What happened is that I ground the flats on the stub to set up my action wrench handle perpendicular to the ground so I could put 100% of my weight on it. (I didn’t think I could use the Wheeler vise for this, so used the bench vise on the corner) When I heard creaks and became concerned about the 2”x8” benchtop splintering in the corner where the bench vise is mounted, I found a couple of steel blocks I could use in the Wheeler vise, (half way down the bench) to fill in for the oak blocks and clamp onto the stub flats. However, this configuration was 90 degrees off so the handle was sticking straight up and required lateral force.

I put on a helmet and backed up across the garage to get a running start, and that’s when I decided to pour myself a beer…

So, I think the next steps are as follows:

1. Let it soak some more FWIW.
2. Thorough dry off all gas before grinding any more flats!
3. Regrind new flats to allow use of Wheeler vise with action wrench handle horizontal so I can really put my weight into it.
4. Get a good long cheater pipe that will fit my action wrench.

Rod, I haven’t had enough time to read through the thread you posted a link to above, but it looks like really good stuff. Thanks.

Soaking ain't going to help, and neither is your whole body weight. What you want is two things; a vise that will NOT allow any slippage, and a SHOCK, a quick snap. Not a steady pull.
Z, I wold not admit that. Although I was pulling a bunch of Mausers off one day, and last, had one Springfield. You know what happened then.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Soaking ain't going to help, and neither is your whole body weight. What you want is two things; a vise that will NOT allow any slippage, and a SHOCK, a quick snap. Not a steady pull.

I should get the no-slip vise with the flats on the stub, and I understand the quick snap, but wouldn't you want a BIG quick snap? And isn't the best way to get that with a long moment arm and a lot of weight all at once? Cuz a 5 lb hammer on a 2 foot lever sure didn't do it.

Yes, a big quick snap. I usually pull down on the wrench right smartly.

I saw a photo in Dunlap's Gunsmithing a long time ago. It showed a barrel dismounting vise. It was a purpose built device consisting of a large diameter steel pipe(I-beam would work) flanged at each end reinforced with angle braces. One flange was bolted to the concrete floor. The other drilled for a barrel vise. Extending from this flange were two angle steel bracing legs welded to the flange and bolted to the floor. Rock solid and allowed no flex. Instructions were to strike the action wrench handle with a heavy maul a quick solid blow to break the action loose.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
No, that won't help; they have no torque at the front of the receiver. Only on the inner shoulder. Which tends to gall especially on the soft 1909s.
Neither will oil, low heat, (If you are going to re-heat treat it, maybe)or anything else, but brute force. And since 1909s are none too hard in the first place, there is a chance of warpage if your wench is not perfect. I use a 30 ton press, no bench vises, and a long cheater bar. They never fail to come off.
Good luck.

THANK YOU!! that's the entire purpose of the torque flange (C or H ring, to some folks) and actually required special machines to make them ..


anyway, you've done just about everything short of boring out the barrel on the lathe and picking the threads out...

might try dry ice, ON THE BARREL for about 2 hours, then putting in the barrel vise and WHACK with a deadfall hammer --- frankly, the hammer should be horizontal

if it doesn't come off then, then propane torch on the front ring while the barrel is cold


parting the barrel, on an OEM mauser, doesn't do a thing -- only those that have been rebarreled and torqued on the front ring would it help

good luck...

I remember a barreled mauser a fellow gunsmith brought by to get the barrel off...I bragged that it would only take one whack with a hammer to break it loose. It took two, and the 'hammer' was a 1 1/4" square bar of brass 3 feet long. Swung on the SOB like I was trying for a home run. That was the tightest one I've encountered and it had PO Ackley's stamp on the barrel... It looked like the barrel shoulder was actually swelled from the compression at the action face but it could have been in the contouring. Once broke free it screwed off by hand. Brownells barrel vice and the Brownells action wrench. They are heavy duty and WORK.

The Howa 1500's are almost as tight.

I took a Howa off last year. 10lb sledge. All is well.

OTOH, I did a Ruger last month and I put the wrench on, laid my hand on it, prepared to put some ass into it. As I laid my hand on the wrench, it literally fell down; had about one pound of torque. Loosest one I ever saw. Outside of a M2 Cal .50 Machine gun barrel, which has zero torque and is held in place by a tiny little spring.

I have not removed a barrel and I am not a gun smith. I grew up on a farm and have farm boy mechanics and methods. It would reason to me to use a good heavy hammer and strike the wrench with constant firm blows, Not as hard as you can but maybe 60% power. I would hit is 50 times or so. This constant jarring may loosen it or may make it so you can with a cheater and a swift tug to break it loose. But don't try this unless some smiths on here say yes. That hammering may gaul your metal. They will know... Am I wrong here?

That won't work. It has to be ONE sharp snap. A series of little ones won't do anything. Even if it did work, who has time to stand there and whack the wrench 50 times?
Barrels and receivers are not nuts and bolts. Different dynamics and torque forces.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That won't work. It has to be ONE sharp snap. A series of little ones won't do anything. Even if it did work, who has time to stand there and whack the wrench 50 times?
Barrels and receivers are not nuts and bolts. Different dynamics and torque forces.

That is why you are the smith and I’m the farmer!

Ahhh.How abut impact wrenches...lotsa small blows...

I've had a few tough barrels. Toughest one was a Clerke High Wall in .45-70. Put a 4 foot cheater bar on it, and then hit the wrench with a 4 pound hammer. Wouldn't go, heated it, and when it finally let go with a loud cracking sound, I thought we had broken the hydraulic barrel vise. The barrel twisted about 15 or 20 degrees, and bent slightly. You could see the twist inside on the rifling as well as outside.

Had a Montana 1999 with a galled stainless barrel, had to bore it out and pick out the threads, and then rechase them. It had galled on installation, with the stub about 1/2 the way in It was the second or third time the barrel had been screwed into the threads the fellow that sold it to me said; he was fitting it and probably had the threads a bit too tight and no stainless steel anti-gall lube.

Also had a 40x .22 lr that the barrel was so tight that I had to use a cheater on the wrench all the way out. Apparently they threaded them to a very tight fit on purpose.

Mausers I've always found susceptible to putting a long cheater on the wrench, having someone put their weight on it, and then smack it smartly with a 4 pound hammer. They POP and come loose and then you can spin them out by hand from there.

Barrels are in no way like bolts in how they are installed, and removed. Ok they both do have threads. A bolt, or stud, is made from hardened steel and so is the nut. It depends on stretching to achieve the torque and that is why, when you remove them, they get loose gradually. Barrels,OTOH, are soft. they rely on stopping against a shoulder to make the fit. They do not loosen gradually; they come loose all at once. And some were installed far too tightly and cause problems to remove.
Impact wrench? try it and let me know how it works. It won't because the barrel will just twist and absorb all the impacts.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Ahhh.How abut impact wrenches...lotsa small blows...

i guess one could cut off the barrel, machine in a 1 1/8 or 28mm or someone or so "nut" to lock it down on ... then figure out a way to hold the action.. an action wrench might do it ...

then start at LOW psi, as the barrel is basically and usually pretty soft, circa 25c, and tearing off that nut would make interesting noise erupt from the loose nut on the impact ..

i could see how that MIGHT, just maybe, work ... all bodged up, but it could work...

sigh .. creative and engineer shouldn't be used in the same sentence

After seeing Rod in shorts with bright knobby white legs and all I fear I will have night mares tonight.

Craftsman, i had the same thought.

He looks the part in the camo shirt when bellied up to the sales counter, but he must wait until the customers leave before stepping away.

Jeremy

I just look away real quick so I won't be traumatized. More.

We don't get much sun here in the Great White North. Plus, people are a bit scared of me too, so I don't have a lot of the problems with customers haggling over prices and whining about times.

Actually, that getup is the best money maker I have ever thought up and the camo T shirts don't show it when I bathe in cutting oil. I have about 40 pairs of shorts and T shirts all the same. I generally buy them at Walmart once every year or two and cull them out as they get holes. One set each day for a month and then the whole lot goes down to Mrs Washy Washy. I bring them in on my way home from work and pick them up on the way home from work the next day all washed and folded. My cleaning bill for the shop scrubbies is $30 month. Back in the days of shirts and blue jeans laundry would literally kill the shit out of me. Doing it myself meant running 3 or 4 loads loads a week and separating it from regular wash. Using a laundry service was cost prohibitive. You can make fun of my scrubbies all you want but I'm the one that's laughing ! LOL

Besides, I'm to old to care what I look like, as long as I don't smell like a dirty old man I'm happy. The other up side is that everyone is so used to seeing me like this that outside of the shop no one recognizes me. So I can go all over town, into malls, shops, other gunshops and gunshows and no one recognizes me and stops to chat or hounds me with silly questions or gun talk. Just like Superman, but without the faggy, spandex getup and forever trying to change outfits behind a cell phone! LOL

Nooo...I didn't suggest an impact wrench on a barrel...I pointed out the fact that repeated small blows can loosen the tightest applications

Today's trivia:

They actually did try using mechanical wrenches on the the P17s or P14s back in the day to speed up production. (I dis-remember which one) They ended up splitting and cracking a whole run of receivers until someone had the common sense to kick the engineer who came up with it in the balls and put a stop the practice. Barrels should be tightened until the crush is taken out and the shoulders friction weld together. (gall together for the less edumakated and sofistymakated) LOL

Friction weld. Nice term. I will try to remember that and stop using gall. Which is a body fluid anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Friction weld. Nice term. I will try to remember that and stop using gall. Which is a body fluid anyway.

Oh yeah, always try to be techny-cool in your prose. If you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle the fawkers with bullshit ! he he he

Had one one time I picked up from a gun show. The barrel was cut off leaving about a 1/2”. No idea why. I just milled six flats and used an impact. Came out easy.
Don

The space shuttle drop tank is put together with friction welding. So are air bag explosion canisters. It has its uses.

Just not in this case with a stubborn Mauser.

Jeremy

I had a Mosin barrel that laughed at my attempts until I took my angle grinder and ground opposing flats on the shank of the barrel. I put the newly ground shoulders under a hydraulic press based H-frame vise I copied from Lassen College. The barrel came off with a loud squeal.