So far no one has told us what's so good about what their making.Does anyone here work for their money ?

quote:

Does anyone here work for their money ?

Now that is funny coming from guy in Montreal.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
So far no one has told us what's so fucking good about what their making.Does anyone here work for their money ?

It's a question of utility versus craftsmanship. Any stock gun can be rigged up to shoot well for a few $ thousand. But when you spend serious money you get a better overall product. It's that simple.

A well made gun just feels better, if you haven't had one in your hands, you wouldn't know that. Judging from your comments, you obviously haven't. I recommend you do as you may be enlightened- maybe not you just may not care.

You get what you pay for. That is the bottom line.

On a more less intense note, just handle a factory Dakota or a Cooper (few thousands $) and a factory Rem or Win or Ruger.

A Honda will drive you from point A to point B, so does a Ferrari. Now many a Honda has been "riced" up with Nitrous etc and can compete with and frankly out run a Ferrari, but it's still a POS Honda........get it?

And just because someone CAN afford a Ferrari and perhaps you can't (I use that loosely)doesn't give you the right to disparage him or his car/gun/etc.

shootaway, try to do more reading than posting.

Good manners and diplomacy would also help.

Try the search function under D'Arcy Echols, David Miller , Gene Simillion -that's where you'll gain some insight. Then buy a plane ticket and fly down to Utah, Colorado, Nevada (SCI) etc. and handle some of those rifles in person.

There is one other thing that has not been mentioned in this thread that I think plays a big part in someone wanting to own a fine rifle. While I may not be able to do as much shooting as I would like, I can get hours of enjoyment from a top quality rifle. Sometimes it is nice to just sit down for a few hours with a good rifle and appriciate the workmanship that went into the construction and building of the rifle. Try this with your average remchester. Yes, if you spend $20,000 on a rifle it had better function flawlessly, but for me at least, it is more than just that. To me, it is like owning a piece of art that can do more than just hang on the wall.

Just my .02.

John

Shootaway

You just read LeeC state that it took him two years to pay for his first Miller Rifle. So he must work for his money.

As has been written about Miller Rifles, "One of the great wonders of life is the ability to dream about things that are not now in the realm of possibility". Don't say its crazy to own a Miller Rifle because of its cost. Instead, say, what can I do to earn enough money to own a Miller Rifle. People who are successful in life don't complain about what things cost. Instead, they find ways to get what they want, and they keep dreaming until they get it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Shootaway

You just read LeeC state that it took him two years to pay for his first Miller Rifle. So he must work for his money.

As has been written about Miller Rifles, "One of the great wonders of life is the ability to dream about things that are not now in the realm of possibility". Don't say its crazy to own a Miller Rifle because of its cost. Instead, say, what can I do to earn enough money to own a Miller Rifle. People who are successful in life don't complain about what things cost. Instead, they find ways to get what they want, and they keep dreaming until they get it.

Well said, I work my tail off everyday.. I just knew what I wanted, and was willing to sacrifice to be able to do it..My wife even agreed to cut costs to help pay it off. I had to borrow the money from my parents, so they as well deserve credit for helping. Since that time life has been a little easier, and I now am able to buy one more if I wanted to.


Lee

Well said, I work my tail off everyday.. I just knew what I wanted, and was willing to sacrifice to be able to do it..My wife even agreed to cut costs to help pay it off. I had to borrow the money from my parents, so they as well deserve credit for helping. Since that time life has been a little easier, and I now am able to buy one more if I wanted to.


Lee[/QUOTE]

Good for you!

Shootaway, here is a quote of yours pulled from another thread.

quote:

Mod. 70 classic sporter claw exractor 300 win mag. Barrel says made in USA New Haven plant. Impressed with the quality of the action for the price.Paper said congradulations you just bought a fine Winchester.It has been a long time since I wanetd one.Gave myself a standing ovation.I will use this action to build the mother of all custom rifles.

I'm curious as to what your definition of the "mother of all custom rifles" would be. Please be specific, as I'm quite curious.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
30 thousand dollar hunts,30 thousand dollar rifles-I don't fit in here.My money does not come that easy.

That's because you spend TOO much in taxes!

gunmaker

Shootaway,

I would suggest that you read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki. You could find it at the library if you didn't want to buy it.

Its a financial education book.

Chuck,
Shootaway did luck out and get one of the few Winchesters made in New Haven, instead of those "Made in Japan" model 70's that Echols uses.
He'll probably put one piece aluminum bases on it, "just like" Echols does, but he'll have a "benchrest capable" gunsmith fit a barrel, because neither Echols nor Miller are capable of working to such exacting tolerances. Then he'll have it "professionally" bedded in a Ram-Line stock.
It'll be just like a Legend, probably better in his eyes (not that he would know since he's never even owned a factory M70 before now), and definitely cheaper, because how other people spend the money that they earn is all that really matters.

JZ

I would like to know on what information you make the statement that neither Miller or Echols are capable or working to benchrest standards. Have you been in their shops? Have you inspected their equipment. Have you watched their procedures? Or what other information do you have to back up your statement.

Moreover, what model 70 actions are made in Japan? Do you have a photo of one?


By the way. If you think that how people spend their money is what really matters, you have a long way to go to understanding what really matters.

I think the post JZ made was in jest.

Posted by Jordan:
"The foundation for an Echols' Legend rifle is not a fine piece of Turkish Walnut and a custom action from superior steel, but an over-the-counter McMillan stock and a factory Winchester action [made in Japan?]. Yet they cost upwards of $7500.00 dollars!

The ostensible justification for this exorbitant price is: [1] a machined stainless steel cartridge box; [2] aluminum scope rings with an integral base; [3] and lots of "special" work on the timing of extractors and feeding and some trigger work. The $7500+ price apparently includes some load development too. [Apparently load development is a very difficult, and thus highly profitable enterprise!]

Anyone can commission an equivalent rifle from at least a half dozen gunsmiths with the action trued and barrel chambered to benchrest standards for less than $2500.00. The rifle will shoot as well as or better than an Echols legend."

Posted by shootaway in reference to a Legend:
"To say it differently,I could build a rifle with 700 dollars that will shoot as accurate or better than his.



22WRF,
My whole post was a joke, I just got sick and tired of hearing from shootwaway and Jordan talking BS about rifles they obviously know nothing about. I mean cripes, they don't give people a hard time about driving Hyundais, and they cost more than the Legend, even after the price increase!

I have no doubt the either Echols or Miller are capable of acheiving benchrest tolerances in their shops, in fact, I remember Darcy posting here on AR about going to West Virginia to visit Clay Spencer's shop and see his chambering setup, the same setup Jim Borden uses.

Both Echols and Miller make arguably the finest bolt action rifles in the world, and their wood stocked rifles cost less than a chevy pickup with a few options. To denigrate their work and those that appreciate them is pathetic, in my opinion.

Jz

Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!!!

I guess the real question is when does craftsmanship and art become a fleecing? Or is it just good ol capitalism?

Doing the right thing when no one will ever see it is the mark of a true artist/professional/master.

That said, a price increase of $4500 to $12000? Ouch!!!

Did the costs or amount of hours to produce a Legend triple in four years? Or did the willingness of a small group of well-to-do gentlemen to pay triple go up? I would imagine the latter. And I would imagine the group of gentlemen willing to pay has shrunk as well. As long as a businessman doesn't price himself out of the market...it is America. Good for him. But he has priced himself out of what I am willing to pay.

Chuck, I would like to own a rifle like the ones on the American custom gun makers guild site.The ones that they sell raffle tickets for.I really like one and would like a similar rifle built on a caribou theme.I would like it as perfect as can be but would not use it in the field.I would like to display it in a handsome leather case in a gunroom that I dream of building,the way a beautiful painting is shown off.I got a Sako deluxe that I stare at alot and has made me proud to own.Right now I am trying to find out on how I can export the action to the States to the metalsmith.I spoke to him on the phone and was told there is a year and a half waiting period.All the better because its going to cost a fortune.But what the hell,it is something that I am dreaming about since childhood,and don't mind working my ass off for it.

jz,thanks for mentioning the Japan thing.I didn't know they made them in Japan.I got one on order from Wholesale sports,and going to give them a call on Monday to find out which is the one they will send.I don't want the Japanese one.I am buying an American rifle not a Japanese rifle.

Shootaway, the "made in Japan" reference was a joke to what Jordan had posted when he said that Echols uses "Made in Japan" Model 70's. Model 70's were never made in Japan, all have been made in the US, to my knowledge.

For those that think a David Miller or an Echols rifle is expensive. Check out the price of a Holland and Holland Royal. The price paid for a Miller or an Echols is a mere pittance by comparison.
Timan

Timan

What can somebody purchase from you these days for a $10,000 dollar bill?

$10 K will get a rifle that uses my M-98 small ring + .030 design in 4 action lengths, short, intermediate, 06 or 375 length. Plus .030 means that I've increased the small ring design to 1.330 from 1.3 . Barrel threads are .980 x 12. All m-98 features are present c-ring breech, 3rd lug even the little dovetail in the extractor it's all there. These actions are machined with square bridges which are left blank for the customers reqest of Talley, Smithson or Sunnyhill Dumolin rings possibly others. Express style sights standard, offered for those who choose them, banded ramps and barrels with integral features are extra. Blackburn trigger. Stocked in Turkish or English up to $1000.00 budget thru Dressels. All metal hand polished to 320 and rust blued.
24 lpi checkering wrap forearm, two panel grip standard. I just prefer wrap checkering so thats all I ever want to do, anything less I feel is a shortcoming. For 10k I will also build a rifle that uses my own action design That I call the Satterlee Arms Magnum, It combines the M-70 and the M-98 and is suitable for rifles from 375 thru 505. The S/A magnum is a much larger action with a .750 diameter bolt and 1.450 receiver diameter. $5000.00 down will get your wood bought and your choice of action thru machining. 2nd payment of $2500.00 gets your action barreled and your stock inletted shaped and finished. 3rd payment of $2500.00 gets your metal rust blued and your stock checkered. Your rifle is then final tested and shipped to your shop of choice. The titanium M-98 starts at $13,500.
Timan
Stuart Satterlee

I do not have a problem with the actual prices charged by Echols and Miller for their work. I paid over $4k for Larry Vickers to build me a simple, plain 1911 pistol. I think it's worth every penney and I am sure I could sell my Vickers for more than I paid for it. When the word started to get out about Vickers, he could have jacked his prices 60%, but he did not. He just lengthened the waiting list out to 5 then 7 years, then just stopped taking orders. Ditto Hilton Yam. Larry had small price increases over the past 8 years or so but if he had put a big price increase into his pistols because he found people were paying as much for work by other smiths whose work was perhaps not quite as fine, I gotta say I would have lost a little respect for him, much the same as I would have if he would let people jump up his wait list for a monetary premium on their gun. This is why I personally would not consider getting an Echols Legend which I am sure is an exquisite rifle.

I guess my question is: will that 10K,20K or 30K rifle kill any deader than a 2500.00 semi-custom?
Will it function any better,shoot any better(or as well).
It boils down to EGO and $$$$ to piss away on overpriced names!!!!!
Face it, an Echol's at 12,500.
pre-64 action 600.
Echol's stock 1,000
barrel 600
trigger &
bottom metal 600
sub total 2800 bal. 9700.00

prices above are just my guesses at coming to a parts list. Still, to me I can buy the same quality much,much cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
my M-98 small ring + .030 design in 4 action lengths, short, intermediate, 06 or 375 length.

how does one get more into on your actions?

The fact of the matter is this: there is simply nothing Echol's does [or can do] to impart $11,000.00 of value to the raw components which constitute an Echol's "Legend" rifle [McMillan stock, Krieger/Shilen/Hart barrel and Winchester action]. The revelation from the contributor above that Echols recently raised the price of a Legend rifle from $7500 to $12,000.00 due to "inflation" [say what?!] confirms beyond any possible doubt that what is happening here is that consumers are being gulled.

This is not an attack on D'arcy Echol's. If he is savvy enough to convince customers they should pay him 4-5 times more than they need to pay someone else to purchase a virtually identical product [and to believe that "inflation" necessitated a recent 62% price hike of his product, but no one elses!!] then I take my hat off to the man. He has truly mastered "the art of the deal"!

May I also suggest also that the analogy above to a Mercedes Benz vs. Hyundai is flawed. For one thing, labor and materials costs are much, much higher in Germany [and most of Europe] than they are in Korea. Moreover, there is an objective, measureable difference in quality between a Mercedes Benz and a Hyundai. Without question, the fit, finish, engineering and materials used in manufacturing a BMW are far, far superior than anything found in a Hyundai.
Contrastingly, Echol's uses the same components my talented gunsmith uses to build virtually an identical product for $2500.00 and his labor costs are no higher than other American gunsmiths. In fact, labor in Cache Valley, Utah is probably as cheap if not cheaper than anywhere in the U.S.

There is alot of emphasis made on the "80 steps" or machining operations or refinements [whatever they are] that Echols employs on a Winchester action to "improve" it. This strikes me as an admission right out the door that the Winchester action is inferior. Why else does Echols' have to remanufacture it [if that is in fact what he does]. At the SCI show this year I examined a German Mauser action which is available for $3,000.00 US dollars. It is a CNC and EDM machined thing of beauty and precision. For the cost of a McMillan stock, a Kreiger barrel and a few days in the hands of an expert 'smith, I can have a completed rifle for about $4500.00 with an action which is far superior to a Winchester even after Echols' $12,000.00 of ministrations.

A couple of years ago Bryan Harre of New Zealand was making a beautiful Mauser type action in four or five action lengths and with roller bearing pivot points in the trigger for about $2500.00. The only way Echol's could conceivably make the Winchester into a comparable product would be to melt it down and start over. [And given the prices of his rifles, we will probably hear very shortly that that is exactly what he does!]

After reading some of Echols' supporters, I am starting to wonder if the guy sprinkles fairy dust on these actions, causing them to morph into something no one else is able to achieve because the "details" of this transformation" are never revealed. It always remains a mystery. Apparently we are supposed to take it on faith that something really substantive and special occurrs when Echol's waives his magic wand over a $500.00 Winchester action---something that [conveniently for Echols] only $12,000.00 in cold, hard cash can achieve! One thing is certain, we will never, ever hear a detailed description of what Echols actually does to a Winchester action, because at that point, the gig would be over. It does not take $12,000.00 to properly stone a bolt raceway.

Look, I could care less if Echols sells a million of these rifles and buys a villa in Jackson Hole with the profits. I guess I am just a little like Consumer Reports or some skeptics. When I hear of something which does not add up, I call it like I see it.


Jordan

Jimmyd223, actually the Legend is a semi-custom in that if you get one, you are severely limited w.r.t. action, stock, bbl, caliber selection, mounts and scope. Maybe it is different now, but a few years ago, after the piece in Rifle magazine about the Legend, you could call D'arcy and buy a Legend off the rack! I did call him to inquire but decided, much for those very reasons, not to buy one. At least with Ryan Breeding, for less money, you pick the action, stock, dimensions, everything! for a truely CUSTOM piece, made for you and you alone.

I do not know Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller, or Mr. Crum. But I bet they all would say that they have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the fact that many folks think their products are too expensive.

Once again, they are marketing to a certain segement of the population for whom it matters not what the cost is, so long as the Service is there. I am sure they are gratified that others who have incomes below that of which they are marketing to may have a desire to own their product. But they know there are enough folks who have the money to purchase what they offer. All of the talk in the world isn't going to make them lower their price, and I am sure they are happy that folks seek out smiths who are lower in cost than they are because at one point in their careers they were at that lower price structure as well.

I myself do not own a $40,000 Miller Co. rifle. Not becuase I think they cost too much. Rather, I don't own one because at the present time I don't have the money. There is a big difference between the two.

No one asked them to lower their prices. With respect to D'arcy Echols, what I pointed out is that there "is no there there"---there is no actual value for the added cost. It's ethereal. Hell, it isn't even smoke and mirrors. It's not that sophisticated. It is nothing more than assiduous indulgence in the premise that "no one ever went broke underestimating the American people!"----there are enough buyers out there who will accept your product pricing---no matter how unsupported by actual, verifiable reality that pricing is---such that you can probably sell quite a few rifles.


Jordan

Joe I've held some highly customized rifles built by D'Arcy Echols. One included a Hagn single shot being built for a gentleman that was over 7' tall. Don't tell me that one wasn't custom.

Chuck

Chuck, I said nothing of the kind! The topic was the Legend rifle by Echols.

Joe, I'm curious as to what custom option you're after on the Legend?

Chuck, at the time I WAS interested in a Legend, I wanted QD scope mounts, similar to the H%H claw mounts on my Rigby that I DID find very valuable in Africa on one occasion. But, as I stated above, I am no longer interested in an Echols Legend, regardless of price. In perspective, a recent inquiry to Ryan Breeding about a rifle, 416 Rigby, 5 shot box, glass stock, GMA action, no problem! And at a price significantly less than a Legend.

Joe, that seems like a fabulous rifle you have on the go. I'm sure Ryan will be doing a bang up job.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by LeeC:
RMiller,
I have talked to David in the past, and he has told me you were related, because I has seen your name on another David Miller thread, and asked him.
I've known David about 11yrs, and I am positive his main job was a mason. He used to tell me that he was so good at laying brick that many corporations sent him to different parts of the US to build warehouses, walls,etc.. I will know for sure as I am supposed to call him tomorrow..I know one thing for sure, whether carpentry, masonry, or rifles, he does all jobs with equal perfection. I have never seen anything David did,that was other than exceptional. I am going to ask him about Harry Lawson too, as I have never heard him say he worked for anyone else in the firearms field..

When my father worked for Harry in the late 60's David and his father would frequent the place and from the story that was passed on to me was that David got his start apprenticing under Harry in a gunmaking school. At that time he was a hod carrier and brick layer working for his father.

Lawson's shop and David's are merely a few blocks away from one another. I drove by David's, but never had the chance to stop in....However, my father and I spent a great deal of time talking with Harry before he passed away.
While Harry's stock designs were not considered classic and sometimes considered ugly by the populace....he was an outstanding entrepeneur, making his first million by the time he was 21. Working as a tool and die maker and later a production furniture company, allowed him to combine the two arts into developing a highly accurate rifle and the best stock duplicator available.

Harry was the only person that I knew of that could get factory Remington unbarreled actions directly from Remington.

He was also good buddies with Roy Weatherby, which if you look at the stock designs of Roy, you'll see some definite similarities, but Roy kind of took his own, and not so great take on them.

But do ask David about his start.....I'm sure he'll tell ya it was with Harry Lawson on Richie Blvd. in Tucson.

Triggerguard

It is my understanding that Harry Lawson made his stock duplicator plans available to anyone that wanted to make one.

I see photos of the one that David Miller made in the new book by Tom Turpin and it looks very very much like the one that Sterline Davenport made (photos of it in Jack Mitchell's book Riflesmithing).

Anyway, the question is, do you know whether a set of plans for that duplicator exists anywhere that a guy could get his hands on a copy? Maybe your Dad has a set of plans???

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Triggerguard

It is my understanding that Harry Lawson made his stock duplicator plans available to anyone that wanted to make one.

I see photos of the one that David Miller made in the new book by Tom Turpin and it looks very very much like the one that Sterline Davenport made (photos of it in Jack Mitchell's book Riflesmithing).

Anyway, the question is, do you know whether a set of plans for that duplicator exists anywhere that a guy could get his hands on a copy? Maybe your Dad has a set of plans???

I believe Sterling Davenport's duplicator was copied from Harry's, if i'm not mistaken. Sterling did a lot of Harry's checkering work years ago.

As far as plans for that duplicator, I would suggest contacting Harry's son, Randy. He's still running the shop in Tucson and using that duplicator. I would imagine he would be able to furnish you with the plans, or at least let you know what's invloved.
The plans, from what I've seen of the duplicator, would not be that involved, but the setup of the machine and the dialing in of all the heads is where the tricky part came into play.

Harry's background in machining and fabrication made him a natural for devising such things.

If you were serious about acquiring the plans, I would opt to make a trip to Tucson to see it in operation and talk to Randy directly. He would know more about the in's and outs of that machine better than anyone on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
There are also some specific and complicated reasons that D'Arcy prefers not to build standard cartridge offerings around Winchester's classic action. Prefering instead to use the Pre 64.

This is interesting. Do you have any more details?

on why do gunsmithing prices raise?

on the lower level, because the man has to eat, too. If he had been charging 100 buck to barrel, bed and fed your action and barrel, assuming he had the reamer, he's making about 10 bucks an hour, after taxes. That's NOT a living wage for hungrey machine tools

On someone making a 7500 to 12000 change..

it's simple economics... since quality production is self limiting (you can ONLY get so many out a year) and customers complain more about DELAYS than the agreed upon price, this is simple....

you raise the price to a strong price point, which allows you to keep that same numer of units per year heading out the doors...

it reduces your customer pool, therefore reducing your wait time

and it allows you to do the most american thing a man can do

make money from your own enterprise.

jeffe