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I have searched up and down, and have found no contact information for him. Could someone provide a phone number, web address, or email? Thanks | ||
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I think he still is where he has always been. 3131 E. Greenlee Rd, Tucson, AZ 85716 Phone 520-326-3117 No web site. | |||
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Overpriced and overrated IMO. Doug | |||
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Well I've learned a lot here being a lurker. From all my research on this here site when it comes to customs two names ALWAYS appear -- D'Arcy Echols and David Miller. Not saying I'm buying from either, but just want to get more info on both. Personally I'm leaning towards Lex Webernick. Thanks for the help 22. | |||
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Seth, you realize you are looking at 15K+ for a laminated stocked Miller? I can vouch for Lex. He made me a custom lightweight Model 70 in 7mm Rem Mag that shoots lights out with a number of factory and handloads. NO - the craftsmenship is not that of a true "custom", Biesen, Ottmar, Bolliger, etc... but neither is the price. For a synthetic rifle you can take anywhere Lex builds a hell of a nice gun. Doug | |||
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Everyone knows I have Millers, so I make no bones about my opinion. To put Lex's rifles in with David's is a disservice to both, as they are completely different in concept, design, and end product. I have had 2 rifles by lex, and do not like anything about them...That is not putting Lex down, I just do not like his rifles. I believe they are decent for what you pay for, and can get them in pretty short order I would say 3500.00 as a guess. David's cheapest is 18,000 and is built to be shot from long distance, it will also take 2-3yrs before you get it.. D'Arcy top rate, and I would not hesitate to get one of his synthetic's over Lex's anyday. I would pony up the money to get his, if I wanted synthetic. 7500.00, and I would guess 1-2yrs wait. Completely different rifles, so you must choose which one suits your needs. Do a search for Miller rifles on this forum, and pictures should come up of the last one I bought.. Lee | |||
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This post does not make any sense to me.It is not very expensive to own a accurate rifle.It does not require countless hours of labor or expensive rare wood or precious metals to make a good shooting rifle.So what's with the big bill? | |||
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To say it differently,I could build a rifle with 700 dollars that will shoot as accurate or better than his. | |||
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If accuracy is what you seek, you are getting ripped off, BIG TIME. I agree with shootaway on this. Lots of target rifle builders can make rifles that outshoot MIller's day in and out for a mere fraction. | |||
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Shootaway, you are absolutely correct. There seems to be a strange psychological phenomenon at work here: the act of paying 3 to 4 times what one needs to pay to obtain an equivalent product seems to convince the purchaser that all that extra money actually imputed value to his rifle, when in fact, the buyer may as well have lit a match to it. The foundation for an Echols' Legend rifle is not a fine piece of Turkish Walnut and a custom action from superior steel, but an over-the-counter McMillan stock and a factory Winchester action [made in Japan?]. Yet they cost upwards of $7500.00 dollars! The ostensible justification for this exorbitant price is: [1] a machined stainless steel cartridge box; [2] aluminum scope rings with an integral base; [3] and lots of "special" work on the timing of extractors and feeding and some trigger work. The $7500+ price apparently includes some load development too. [Apparently load development is a very difficult, and thus highly profitable enterprise!] Anyone can commission an equivalent rifle from at least a half dozen gunsmiths with the action trued and barrel chambered to benchrest standards for less than $2500.00. The rifle will shoot as well as or better than an Echols legend. It will have virtually the same balance point. It will feed and extract just as well [contrary to Echol's apparant premise, hunters using factory Winchester actions are not dyiung on the African plains or missing trophy game worldwide due to feeding and extraction problems!]. The trigger on this rifle will break just as clean and the scope bases [equivalent bases are available from Talley and Darrell Holland] will work just as well. One can also have a "bushed" firing pin hole, bolt sleeves installed and other benchrest tricks employed in the rifle. It is true, our hypothetical project rifle may not have a machined stainless steel magazine box [though I suppose one could easily be made], but I have not heard that Winchester magazine boxes are failing all over the world either! I think it was H.L. Mencken who said it best: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"! Jordan | |||
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First of all you are dead wrong about a factory winchester rifle feeding as well as a Echols or other tuned rifle. Having handled, owned or worked with 50-60 different Model 70's I can tell you that they all can use improvement out of the box. Besides you are all completely missing the point about Miller and other High-End custom guns. First of all Miller charges what he does for rifles because he can, you and I may not want to buy one but there are plenty of people who are willing to pay that much he has a pretty good waiting list. It never ceases to amaze me how lets say a Union guy working on an assembly line making $30-$40 an hour running a screw gun or some such relatively unskilled labor moans and groans about one of the talented rare artisans in the world charging enough to make 1/2 that. Miller may be doing a little better but most gunsmiths are not making a big living. The type of work they do requires a lot of hours labor, not to say having to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment, shop rent etc.. If you are happy with your $2500 gun, GREAT! Enjoy it there is nothing in the world wrong with doing so. There is also nothing wrong with the people who drive 12 Cylinder Mercedes, drink $100 a bottle Single Malt and shoot $20,000 rifles. The car analogy is also apt in comparing a $2500 rifle that shoots as good as a $7,500 rifle. About any Redneck mechanic can tune up his 2 body styles old Camaro to run just about as fast as a new Ferrari for vastly less money. But the old Camaro isn't ever going to be a Ferrari! The last few degrees of refinement in most things are by far the most expensive. I'm not trying to put down anyone's stuff, I just appreciate the fact that some people can afford things that I can't. The differences aren't necessarily all that huge but to some they are worth it. I got to drive a 12 cylinder Mercedes once and got to try 1 shot of $100 a bottle scotch, both were reeeeaaaallly smooth and good, but hey I can't afford them, the 600 SEC wouldn't haul as much as my Diesel truck and Dewar's ain't too bad. We should appreciate that there are a few Craftsman who push the edge of quality and artistic acheivement forward. You don't have to own one to appreciate it. And while you at it, realize that even gunsmiths are entitled to make a decent living...............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Contact the Boone and Crockett Club, they'll have Millers contact info... | |||
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I have a pre-64 Model 70 turned into a custom Highpower target rifle. The rifle was put together by Jack Davis (metalsmith) and Alex Sitman (stockmaker), two of the absolute tops in their business. The inletting and bedding is so tight that you can almost hear the vacuum pop when the action is removed. The action feels like a swiss watch and feeds perfectly 100% of the time regardless of bolt speed or gun attitude. The trigger (a Jewell) can only be surpassed by a two-stage Anschutz, and the barrel is a hammer. It will shoot 1 MOA at 600 yards all day long with loads it likes (which weren't hard to find). It did not cost $15,000. It did not cost $7,500. It barely cost $3,500. The best shops making sniper rifles for police departments and private customers in the US (Iron Brigade Armory and GA Precision) charge about $3K for their top of the line rifles. Rifles that are used in situations where innocent human lives are on the line. It's been my experience that beyond the $4,000 mark (to be generous), you are not buying any more functionality with a custom bolt action rifle. No way, no how. You may wish to pay more for frippery, artistry, and for giving a gunmaker a blank canvas to apply all his tricks (whether they serve any useful purpose or not). But please don't expect people who know better to believe that you are getting a better rifle in terms of accuracy and functionality just because you paid so much more over that $4,000 point. We know you did not. | |||
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DJpaintles: Where did I ever say that a factory Model 70 feeds as well as an Echol's Legend? What I pointed out was there is no evidence that Model 70s feed so poorly that it takes thousands of dollars [and especially] the ministrations of Echols to make them feed satisfactorily. I accept your premise that gunsmiths are entitled to make a living---and many of them do so nicely turning out a product equivalent to the Echol's legend for 1/3 the price. With respect to the alleged added value [and your analogy to fine cars] your argument misses the point: one can have a rifle virtually identical to an Echol's legend from any of a half-dozen gunsmiths for 1/3 to 1/2 the price. That Echol's charges so much more does not, in and of itself, imbue his product with superior value or quality. The added cost is simply a mark-up that unsophisticated consumers are willing to pay because they are seduced by the idea that paying more for something automatically makes it better. Often times this is very true. Sometimes it is not. Jordan Jordan | |||
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Is Miller still listed in B&C? A couple of years ago I read where he withdrew all of his entries due to the little Coues deer modification fiasco that bit him in the rear. AFter that event, I will not have anything to do with the man and have no respect for him. People who operate like that are not the kind of people I hang around with (not that I had ever been invited to hang around with Miller before this). If he has since decided to clear up the incident in public I would liek to know about it. That would change everything | |||
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"The added cost is simply a mark-up that unsophisticated consumers are willing to pay because they are seduced by the idea that paying more for something automatically makes it better. Often times this is very true. Sometimes it is not." I have to disagree with that statement. The added cost may be a markup, but to call people who purchase those products "unsophisticated" is in itself unsophisticated. Quite frankly, folks who can afford a David Miller Rifle or a Darcy Echols Rifle or a Steven Dodd Hughes Rifle are very very sophisticated. If they were not, they would not have the money (unless they inhereted or stole it) to purchase these expensive rifles. Does a Coach handbag carry a lipstick any better than a Sears handbag? Does a Hickey Freeman Suit cover your body any better than a Mens Warehouse Suit. The point is, owning these expensive items goes beyond functionality. There is the subjective issue of 'PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP AND PRIDE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT" that goes along with it. These are human psychological traits that We all are ingrained with in varying degrees. The more success we have, the more we strive. At the present I may say that I cannot understand the disparity in prices. But when I have a million dollars I may think differently. Good people rise up to meet these subjective "needs". It is what makes our capitalistic system work, and there is nothing wrong with it. | |||
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I like djpaintles descriptions. At the top, we have Echols spending 80 hours working over an action until it's as perfect as he can get it. That's artwork, not mechanic work. You can get a family photo done at Penneys for $40, then pay a lady in the mall $800 to turn that into an oil paintiing - does that make her art better or worse than a portrait done originally in oil for $20,000? I can't say, since I wouldn't appreciate either for their prices. But an artist does have a place. Some folks want the art and value the slickness. Others like art for other reasons. The artist brings more to the party than marketing, however. The things he tries and discards, the imagination he has to develop new approaches that others later adopt are all priceless. Echols' magazine boxes, for instance. Okay, other folks can do that reasonably well now, but I hadn't heard about the box's effect on feeding until I'd read about it from Echols. I simply like the idea he's out there thinking of the Next Big Thing. Jaywalker | |||
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I'm not necessarily defending Echols or Miller rifles in particular. And for that matter I personally would rather have 10 $2,500 rifles than 1 $25,000 rifle. But I like the fact that there are some more refined stuff out there. I would have to see your $2500 rifles and directly compare them to a $7500 Echols Legend while shooting at the range. To assume that they are equivelant without actually experiencing both is an assumption made from ignorance. I have carefully examined $500 stock work against $5000 stockwork, and there was a lot of differences but I don't know if I'd pay for the $5000 one myself. The point about equivelant funtionality is also not really understanding the overall point here. A $250 Walmart Savage is probably at least as functional a hunting rifle as your $2500 hunting rifle as is a $25,000 hunting rifle, they will all kill a deer just as dead. The differences are in the style of getting there, but hey some people will never get it...............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I must preface my comments by stating that I worked for D'Arcy last summer for 3 months and most likely will again in the future. I, like Jordan and others, have had a hard time reconciling the price of custom rifles to my perceived value of the product. Is a $20,000 rifle better than a $2,000 rifle? Better in what way? Will it shoot better? Is it more reliable? Maybe, maybe not. I've fired plenty of factory guns (usually Rem 700s) which will just plain shoot as good or better than many "custom rifles". These guns have served their owners for years without a hitch. You couldn't convince these owners that their $500 factory gun is somehow worth less than a $5000 gun. The clients who use D'Arcy's rifles genuinely believe them to be worth every penny, and most of them are not on some kind of status symbol ego trip. They know that they are not only buying a rifle made of the best quality materials possible(proprietary stock designs, all steel made to order scope mounts, etc.), but also D'Arcy's dedication (borderlining on obsession) to perfection in both design and execution. In their minds they are paying for 30 years of rifle building and hunting experience. Is it worth the extra money? It is to them. Others could care less. Most genuine builders who charge $5000, $10000 or even $20000 for their rifles are putting everything they have and more into their guns. If a builder spends 100 hours on a gun and charges shop time at $50-$80 an hour it doesn't take long till the hard cost plus labor starts pushing the $10,000 mark. In rural Montana there always seemed to be the regular people (guys who shot Remingtons, Rugers and old Winchesters) and those who we perceived to be the "Weatherby snobs". I still think Weatherbys are overgrown and overpriced but people still buy them at 3 times the price of a normal rifle so I guess it doesn't matter what I think. Brian Bingham | |||
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I can appreciate artistry and workmanship as much as anybody and if people want to pay as much as some charge that's fine by me. But, I agree there comes a price point where you are not paying for better work but perhaps just a name. Brian, are you working in Montana? ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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For those who doubt the quality of the engineering and artistry that goes into a David Miller rifle, you can consult a new book from SCI Press by Tom Turpin, Mastery of Wood and Metal: David Miller Co.. 240 pages with 474 full color images. "An enterataining and informative book on how custom rifles are made by David Miller Co. of Tucson, Arizona, this book aslo serves as a map for consumers and makers to navigarte the nuances of turning wood and metal into the functional art of a fine custom rifle. Loaded with narly 500 photos, the full-color layout brings readers up close and literally right over the shoulder of the gunmakers, page-by-page, step-by-step as they work metal and wood. Every firearms aficionado needs to own, read and reread this book. It is a tribute to all that is superlative in the making of custom bolt-action rifles." jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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HunterJim Is there a mail order source for that book? Thanks. | |||
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I had a Remington factory rifle in 308 that would put 5 shots in a big hole at 200 week after week.In all my time of shooting including my fathers we have never had a round that failed to feed or eject.We never had a stock that cracked or a trigger that malfunctioned.All this for 600 bucks.What more do you want from a hunting rifle enough to want to pay 8000 and wait for 2 years.That is if your concern is reliability.If it is art, that's a another story | |||
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The book can say whatever it says. I do not doubt that Miller, Echols, et.al. are genuine craftsmen that do what they believe to be the very best work. My point is that they do far more than what is necessary to create a rifle of perfect, flawless function. I won't go into form, as that is such a subjective quality. Results speak by themselves. Shooters who demand the ultimate in accuracy (benchresters) and who demand the ultimate in reliability (SWAT snipers) get what they need without needing Echols or Miller to build it for them. I have no beef with Echols, Miller, or anyone else who charges what they do for a rifle. I have no beef with those who patronize them. But please, I will never accept that one needs what Echols or Miller do to have the ultimate in function and reliability in a bolt action rifle. It is simply not so. | |||
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I would say that you have insisted on judgements based upon your worldview and theory without recourse to fact and reality, that is why I mentioned the book: you can learn something there. I have at least met both Mr. Miller and Mr. Echols, and examined their work and discussed rifles. Having shot high power and benchrest, I have not seen their equal in those rifles. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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The squib I read says call SCI Books at 520 620 1220, ext 244 and ask for the special. This book is $69.95. I want one too...jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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HP, Getting a rifle to feed and function is rifle science not rocket science and there are certainly other smiths perfectly capable of the work. Form is another story and as you say is subjective. There are other things that we may not have mentioned yet that can add to the price of a rifle. I know that Echols in particular breaks in his rifle barrels and sights them in while working up a load. This is all work time for him and is something he can charge for. Now for me I love my own range time and will break in my own barrels and wouldn't be willing to pay extra to have it done, but a busy executive that wants a premium rifle ready to hunt might be. Again different strokes for different folks. In the end I guess I just appreciate and defend the guys that push the edge of perfection in gunmaking and can get paid well enough to keep doing it. They inspire me and make me want to improve my own lesser abilities.............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I do not doubt the quality or the engineering. I attended the SCI show in 2005 and couldn't wait to lay hands on a Miller. Once I did I was disappointed. Stockwork certainly not as good as Bolliger (a 10K rifle), Checkering not as precise as a Lindke (3500 rifle), metal work as least equaled by Penrod, etc... I attended the ACGG show that same weekend. One of the members of the Guild and I were discussing Millers rifles, and my views that they are over-priced and over-rated. His response was "Whenwas the last time you read about Bolliger in a gun rag?" As has been stated Miller charges what he does because he CAN, and has customers who will pay. His rifles are not worth 30k to me. I'd take around 6 Biesen's for the same price and be much happier. That having been said I had a chance a few years back to purchase a used Miller for around 7K and declined, a choice I still regret. And yes, I'll buy the book for the eye candy. Doug | |||
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Jordan I don't think that anyone will ever convince you of the merits of a rifle such as the Echols Legend, such that you would be willing to have one built... and thats fine. I don't own one so I'm not some apologist for his work. But I think I may buy one in the not to distant future, or the equivalent from Gene Simillion. I digress. However I think that you would probably be suprised just how expensive those special magazine boxes turn out to be. Now I don't know the exact cost the Echols has in each box but it is a case of low volume high quality manufacturing. And in this day and age that sadly is an expensive proposition. No matter the widget. I think the list of calibers you can get a Legend in goes like this. 7mm Rem 338 Win 300 Win 300 WBY 340 WBY (not 100% sure) 416 Rem 300 H&H 375 H&H 458 Lott I listed the preceeding in the groups they are in as those are cartridges that, using Paul Mausers mag. box formula, can use the same box. That is six different boxes all made very close tolerences ( I would imajine +/- .0005"). Now when you add in that Echols only makes something like 15 legends a year it quickly gets expensive to make the six variations of mag. boxes no matter who does the work( I think Echols also sells his boxes to a select few gunmakers as well). I remeber an article by Wayne Van Zwoll a few years ago examining the echols mag. box system. If I remember correctly he stated that D'arcy's first run of boxes he had built on his final design ran him somthing over $1000 per box! Now I'm sure that Echols has x number of each box built per run but I doubt one run is more that 75-100 boxes. That is still very low volume and the demand isn't there to justify ordering a large enough run of boxes to significantly effect cost. And Echols can't just pass his cost through. Any good business person will have overhead, wages, profit and other real costs built into the price you the buyer pay. I doubt this is something that you are willing to pay for. Again this is perfectly okay. Enough others are. So much so that Legends are the majority of Echols business. Hence the price increases he has applied over the past few years. It analogous to many things in life. Do I need to wear an Omega when a Timex or Seiko tell time as well? No but that is what I want to wear. | |||
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Reality says that if what Echols and Miller do to rifles is required for flawless function, only their rifles would function flawlessly. Sorry, no dice. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by HP Shooter: My point is that they do far more than what is necessary to create a rifle of perfect, flawless function. I won't go into form, as that is such a subjective quality. Results speak by themselves. Shooters who demand the ultimate in accuracy (benchresters) and who demand the ultimate in reliability (SWAT snipers) get what they need without needing Echols or Miller to build it for them. QUOTE] I don't think that it is a fair or valid comparison between a SWAT sniper, benchrester, and a hunter. Especially if we are talking dangerous game. The only reliability that a sniper or benchrester needs in that the rifle goes bang when you trigger is pressed. I don't classify accuracy as functional reliability. Although a rifle can be reliably accurate and precise. A sniper engages from hundred of meters. And your target is often unaware of its hunter. If you are chasing an elephant, buffalo, or hippo at 50 meters or less there is a real chance that you may get stomped if you need a second shot and your rifle jams or slam-fires or mis-fires. Enough people have rationalized this as a good enough reason for spending the $$$ on an Echols or Miller rifle. | |||
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Dude......... these guys don't charge what they do hoping someone will cut a cheque, and their prices are going nowhere but up. If D'Arcy Echols and David Miller charged $3000 for complete rifles they would never sleep. Grab a brain and if nothing else, reserve the bashing to rifles you've actually looked at. Chuck | |||
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Shootaway, at least get your facts straight before you start blowing smoke out your rear. Chuck | |||
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One other take........... If Miller and Echols are selling all the rifles they can make for 7,500-20,000 they would have to be pretty stupid to sell the same thing for $2500 wouldn't they?................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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What part of this:
Did you not understand. | |||
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And enough have found the same level of reliability and dependability with any number of gunsmiths and rifle makers who charge significantly less. Wow, I'm done talking to brick walls. | |||
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What HP said about if only there rifle functioned flawlessly that says alot.Chuck what don't you agree with? | |||
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Earth to brick wall, these two guys aren't going out of business. Do you need me to type slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwer? | |||
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Shootaway, your info is incorrect, and pretty much sums up the fact that your nose should stay out of the discussion. | |||
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Echols' Legends are $12,000. I shoot mod 70s from pre wars to modern classics, from $2500- $5500, wood/blued and synthetic s/s. From guild guys to benchresters. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. Yes there is a definite difference between the feel of a good quality worked over action as compared to a quickie, but accurate rifle. Any rifle can be made accurate, but what you're paying for is FEEL. I just bought a Dakota and frankly I am very impressed with the smoothness of the action (without digressing about the wood/stocks). That action is rock solid from the bottom metal to the bolt stop (I have both Blackburn and Williams, they do not have as solid a feel). Is it worth $1800 an action as a starting point for a custom over my beloved (and much cheaper) mod 70? I kinda think so. The reason: quality does have a certain feel to it: SOLID! Yes, there is something to be said for knowing your rifle will feed flawlessly. And frankly that "solid" feel is indeed worth the price. But everybody's wallet is different. The same holds true for cars. A Ferrari is quicker'n shit, but the solid feel of an Aston Martin is well worth the compromise in giving up a little in quickness. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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