It's obvious that Echols and Miller rifles get at least what the market will bare. Beyond that, there is really no argument, in my opinion. I think an Echols Classic Mauser is easily as nice as a Rigby, Purdey, or Holland and Holland magazine rifle, yet Echols charges much less.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Earth to brick wall, these two guys aren't going out of business. Do you need me to type slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwer?

Man, you ARE insecure. I don't give shit if Echols and Miller go broke or set the world on fire.

What they do is not value added FOR ME. If you want what they offer, knock yourself out. I don't give a flying fuck. Really.

You obviously care enough to rant and rave over stuff you know dick about. Next time you don't care, do us all a favour and stay out of it or at least be man enough to let us know who we're dealing with. Talk about a whiney insecure little man.

Does it make you feel like a big boy to save us all from ourselves? I don't mind apposing positions, but get your facts straight before you jump in as the spokesman for the group.

Chuck

quote:

Reality says that if what Echols and Miller do to rifles is required for flawless function, only their rifles would function flawlessly.

Sorry, no dice.

Reality also says that virtually any car sold today will last 100,000 trouble free miles, run the speed limit and start everytime. Guess that means they are all the same.

I gotta agree with Chuck, though I'd have stated things more diplomatically

Until you guys have handled rifles made up by D'Arcy Echols, Gene Simillion, David Miller, you should refrain from passing judgement.

While I agree that you do not need to spend 10K on a rifle for it to shoot accurately or function properly; if you absolutely want the very best in rifles...rifles that shoot very accurately, function 100% reliably, 100% of the time, cycle super smoothly etc...then pick up and shoot something from these guys and feel the difference.

Cheers,
CL

DavidReed, I am amazed at your Miller list of cartridges available - no .30'06 or .270? No .25-06? Only Magnums? If you are right, that says something bad about Miller and his clients.

vigillinus, DavidReed was talking about Echols and not Miller.

D'Arcy Echols has and will build around the 30-06 family of cartridges. I've seen them with my own eyes. But when it comes to the Legend series of rifles it is generally magnums or bust. These rifles started as an ultra reliable tool for hunters of dangerous game and for various reasons, the large belted magnums where decided upon to base the Legend around.

Magazine boxes were designed for these cartridges and those boxes also accomodate the short belted magnums as well. This is the reason for the magnums only offering. He is building rifles for a niche market and in this regard these choices make perfect sense. There are also some specific and complicated reasons that D'Arcy prefers not to build standard cartridge offerings around Winchester's classic action. Prefering instead to use the Pre 64.

Chuck

vigillinus,

That cartridge list refers to D'Arcy Echols, not David Miller. There are a couple of other cartridges that he will chamber for. It says nothing bad about either the gunmaker or his clients.

If you want a wide array of cartridge chamberings, consider Gene Simillion. His work and prices are comparable to that of D'Arcy Echols and he will also build a completely Stainless Steel custom rifle.

Edited: Chuck has answered the question best.

Well Phaedrus this argument about quality is giving me a real headache...........

I was in the shop today installing a Wisner bolt release that a buddy gave me to put on my recent 9,3x62 project. It wouldn't really make the gun function a whit better but it did look a lot cooler so to me it would have been worth buying for $45 if a freind hadn't donated to the cause. The Wisner safety is a nicely manufactured item but I ended up spending about an hour sanding out all machining marks and prepping it to reblue so as to perfectly match the blue job on the rifle.
It occured to me that if I were building this rifle for someone else that functionally unnecessary prep time would be something a gunsmith would need to charge a client for. Figure $80 and hour and a $45 part plus bluing and you've got a $125+ item that didn't add to the function of the firearm, my polishing probably couldn't be seen and the original blue was close but I knew that the polishing marks aren't there and I want the blueing to be a perfect match.
I then realized that I probably could have spent days removing every milling mark etc. from even a fine action as a Pre-64 M-70 all of which isn't functionally neccessary and might not even be seen it would however make a difference in the quality of the gun. Most of the time people aren't willing to pay the extra cost to have something completely gone through but that doesn't mean that it isn't a better gun when someone does.......................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
You obviously care enough to rant and rave over stuff you know dick about. Next time you don't care, do us all a favour and stay out of it or at least be man enough to let us know who we're dealing with. Talk about a whiney insecure little man.

Does it make you feel like a big boy to save us all from ourselves? I don't mind apposing positions, but get your facts straight before you jump in as the spokesman for the group.

Chuck

I guess now we know who's identity is wrapped up in how much they spend on a rifle. No one else would take such personal offense at something that has nothing do with them.

D'Arcy happens to be a friend.

Should read more carefully next time.

Just for the heck of it I got out some materials and did a little bit of history research on David Miller for those who are interested.

He grew up in the midwest and although he was interested in guns at an early age, he actually did carpentry work and built houses before he went into gunsmithing work.

In the late 70s and very early 80s you could order a 2 position model 70 type safety from him, or have him grind a mauser, or install a barrel, or fit a trigger, or install a pre-fit stock, or basically just about any riflesmithing job that you wanted.

His shop is contructed in the yard of his house in Tucson Arizona, and was built specifically for Riflesmithing. it has Separate rooms for each function so that everything is completely neet and orderly.

Where David came to prominence (bascially his marketing genius) is with that first Safari Club Big 5 series of Rifles. He was one of the engineers of that whole thing. Becasue he built the first one, the Elephant Rifle (using a 1909 Argentine Action, stocked by Crum, and engraved by McKenzie) he got one hell of a lot of national press attention. Photos of that rifle appeared in just about ever gun publication there was at the time. The rifle was auctioned for $41,000 at the annual safari club banquet. the second, third, and fourth of the series were built by other folks, and finally, the last in the series, the so called leopard Rifle was again built by Miller and Crum, and engraved by McKenzie. For that Rifle, Dave went to Winchester and got them to build him a Controlled Round Feed action that we basically see today as the Model 70 Classic Action. That Rifle was auctioned off for $201,000.00. Once again, just about every publication had photos of it, and even the Wall Street Journal printed some articles about Miller and Crum.

Obviously, all of this attention, including suppport from Jim Carmichael From OUtdoor Life, Tom Turpin, Gun Digest, and many others in the gun writing field, increased the demand for Miller's Rifles. He wasn't just marketing to a local clientel, but rather to a national and international clientel. As demand grew, he was able to slowly but surely increase prices each and every year. I believe that at the present time his basic classic rifle is somewhere around $25,000.00, and there is no shortage of demand, just like there is no shortage of demand for Stone Sheep hunts at $30,000 a crack, and why some folks will pay $50,000 to hunt desert sheep in Mexico. There are enough financially successful people who are willing to spend money to get what they want.

There is no doubt that David Miller and Curt Crum do a lot of things to their rifles that probably many other extremely talented smiths do not do. They regrind every surface square, they replace many parts, the recut threads, and weld up holes, and a host of other things. They make their own special scope mounts for each rifle. Everything is fitted to the nth degree. And I suppose that all of those things are done to continually justify their claim that they are making the absolute best rifle that they can make.

Does that mean that you have to buy a Miller Rifle to get the function they provide. Nowhere could I find any statements made by them that they claim that.

You don't have to buy a Miller Rifle, or a Echol's Rifle to get the function that those rilfes provide. You can buy rifles for far less money that provide the same or maybe better accuracy and the same functioning as a Miller or an Echols rifle.

The bottom line is that you can buy many rifles from many makers that are as good as a Miller or Echols Rifle in terms of form and function, but you cannot buy a (new) Miller Rifle or Echol's Rifle from anyone other than Miller or Echols.

So, if you want very fine form and function you have a choice. Somebody's Rifle has to be the most expensive. Choice is good.

22,

You got most of it right, but to clarify a couple of things.
Winchester actually came to David, for help in redesigning the action, and that is the reason he is the only gunmaker in the world that can get a Winchester action in the white, with no serial#, and no logo...He uses his own serial#, and he puts the logo on for them.. He then has it heat treated...That is the confidence that Winchester has in him, to make sure it is done right, because in the end their name is on it, along side his...
David was in construction, but if I recall he was a mason..His main job was laying brick..
He was, and is not afraid of hardwork..
I would urge anyone in the Vicinity to go, and see his shop, but I will also warn that if you step in, you might not get out without spending some money, as it is pretty amazing..

Would someone please show me an Echols equivalent for $3,000 or so?


I've asked before, haven't seen one yet.

Gunmaker

You might be right about that becasue in my research I found that David built his own stock duplicating machine and I know for a fact that Harry Lawson desinged a stock duplicator quite some time ago that many subsequent gunmakers copied, one of them for sure being Sterling Davenport. And all of those guys were in Arizona at one time or another, I think.

By the way, How in the world does Hallowell and Co. survive in Livingson. When I was there a few times driving around it didn't appear to me to be the sort of town where folks can afford the types of weapons that Hallowell sells (or, is there some great wealth there that isn't readily apparent).

I think want and need are being confused here. No body needs a $15000 rifle but if they have the money, spend it. It's good for our free market economy.

However, do not confuse effort(or in this case expense) with results. Many lesser rifles can be made to shoot as well for less. In this case, a lot less.

Kind of like looking at a Porsche 911 Turbo at $120K and a brand new Corvette for $45000. The biggest difference is style, they are both more than any normal driver needs.

I'm with Ralphie. I have heard much talk of $3000 +/- rifles that are "just as good as a Legend". I would appreciate any contact information anyone has for a top quality gunmaker that will produce a rifle with all of the same qualities (fit, finish, design, functioning, accuracy, materials, etc.) as an Echols Legend...for $3000. I would be willing to give them a great deal of business...except for the fact that if such a smith existed, they would be booked 15 years out.

Chet

Chet,

Check out Gene Simillion- his magnum rifles are only $6,700 base price- about half that of Echols, yet provide much of the same workmanship- an excellent value in today's market.

Shhhhhhh... Don't let the word get out about Simillion's work. I may have him do some work for me in the not to distant future and don't want to wait too long.

30 thousand dollar hunts,30 thousand dollar rifles-I don't fit in here.My money does not come that easy.

$30K hunts and $30K firearms are not the norm. They probably account for a small slice of the pie for the hunting and arms industry overall. That said, its nice to know that there are people that provide such goods and services. Its also nice to know that there are people who can afford such goods and services.

It is also refreshing to me that that it is an industry that is not propped up by a financed note on the consumer side. You have men and woman laying down their money that they have made or earned for something that is, to them, of greater value than the money itself. Gnmkr hit the nail on the head with his analogy regarding recreational vehicles. Imagine the response you would get if you walked into your local bank or credit union and explained to you LO/Banker that you wanted to borrow $15k to commission a custom rifle by some guy named Searcy or Heilmann. You'd politely be told to get lost...

quote:

Imagine the response you would get if you walked into your local bank or credit union and explained to you LO/Banker that you wanted to borrow $15k to commission a custom rifle by some guy named Searcy or Heilmann. You'd politely be told to get lost...

Not in my office.

Chuck

I spoke with D'Arcy yesterday. It turns out that a new Legend has indeed now gone from $7500 to $12,000. I asked him if he had started to link the price of his rifles to the price of diesel fuel. Lets just say I am glad I bought my Legends when he was selling them for $4500, which was only four years ago.

I have a hard time believing that inflationary pressure, which was essentially the explanation he gave for the increase, has warranted an increase in price of 267% in four years (Millville, Utah is not in Bolivia)...but as long as the "Legend" legend (pun intended) lives on, people will continue to buy them and the price will continue to go up.

Now, how exactly does someone go about getting a hold of Gene Simillion?


Chet

quote:

Originally posted by Chet:
I have a hard time believing that inflationary pressure, which was the explanation he gave for the increase
Chet

Jeez he should just be honest and say that he can sell all he can build for that price so why sell for less. Inflation! That is insulting.

Chet,

PM sent

Chuck,

If you'll underwrite a note for a firearm you better keep it a secret as half of the AR membership might line up at your door.

WOW -- a little contact info leads to this....

After finding out that Echols rifles now cost 14,000 for the "cheapo" one I will most likely lean toward Lex at Rifles Inc.

And I'm not saying his guns aren't worth it -- I'm jsut saying it's too much for me.

To look at it another way, Winchester or Remington or Ruger has to worry what 20-50 thousand people a year will think of their guns, both as to quality and price. Darcy and David Miller only have to worry about what 15-20 people a year will think of their quality and their price. I would pick the 15-20 in a heartbeat.

Hey Chuck,if he has friends like you his rifles must be full of shit.

I call you out as a fraud and you cower. Then you come back with this? You perpetuated a bunch of misinformation here, and I'm full of shit? Crawl back into the pond ya frog.

Chuck

Chuck, just ignore shootaway. I think he is a 12-13 year old who has learned just enough about guns to try and jank somebody's chain to get his kick. Fools like him are too beneath contempt to bother much with...........DJ

Since we are hell and gone from Seth's original question...

Damn! $12,000.00 for a Legend. I still really want one but, doubt I'll be able to swing it now.... not without a divorce first..... or immediatly after.....

D'Arcy does make absolutely fantastic rifles though. Did he raise the price of the Classic rifle line as well?

Regards,
Dave

The last time I had a visit with Mr. Miller he was doing a little bit of repairs on his house. So I asked him why he was doing it himself and not having a carpenter do it. He replied saying that Millers have always been carpenters. . I do believe that he used to be a carpenter maybe not a brick mason. Also when he was younger (teenager) he had a section of the family garage dedicated to gunsmithing. At least that is what my dad told me and they are brothers.

I have got to see some wonderful rifles in his shop and am proud to have Mr. Miller as an uncle.

My honest opinion is that selling great rifles at high prices has to with selling as well as great rifles.

quote:

My honest opinion is that selling great rifles at high prices has to with selling as well as great rifles.

Absolutely, I'm sure these guys are great business men along with being good at their craft. Selling is as much an art as is gun making, especially when you're trying to hang a huge price on them. If a person can create a niche like the two men being discussed have done, that's quite an accomplishment.

David,

The last time I talked to D'Arcy about a Classic was in November and his price list started at $20,000. These may have taken a proportionate increase along with the Legends....but I'm not sure.

Chet

RMiller

That is facinating. I am curious. Just as Al Biesen's son Roger followed in his Dad Al's footsteps, does your uncle have any children (Your Cousins) that are following him in the gunmaking business?

I think you hit it on the head. As I mentioned from my research, I think your Uncle's genius was in recognizing that he had to market to people who could afford the type of rifles he wanted to make. Moreover, he wasn't afraid to spend a few bucks to get his message out there.

I am sure there are many many very fine riflesmiths out there who are capable of making as equally good products as your uncle, but they sure aren't going to sell many of them if the people who have the money to afford them are not aware that they are available for purchase!!!!

No rifle building prodagies. Besides my uncle is a one of a kind.

Brings up another thought. Only David Miller can make a David Miller Co. Classic . Only Echols can make an Echols legend. These guys have there own product and to me are uncomparable to each other or any other rifle.

These elite rifle builders prices can only go one direction. It does take some time. I have an old David Miller catalog which lists his custom 1909 mauser for $8000 .

So if someone wants a rifle from any of these elite rifle builders I would suggest the sooner the better. If current prices are a concern. The prices won't be this low again or for long.

RMiller,
I have talked to David in the past, and he has told me you were related, because I has seen your name on another David Miller thread, and asked him.
I've known David about 11yrs, and I am positive his main job was a mason. He used to tell me that he was so good at laying brick that many corporations sent him to different parts of the US to build warehouses, walls,etc.. I will know for sure as I am supposed to call him tomorrow..I know one thing for sure, whether carpentry, masonry, or rifles, he does all jobs with equal perfection. I have never seen anything David did,that was other than exceptional. I am going to ask him about Harry Lawson too, as I have never heard him say he worked for anyone else in the firearms field..

I was one of his first customers for a marksman. He had just started building them, as opposed to the Classic. I still have the original article that got me started in my search for the ultimate rifle. It was penned by none other than Layne Simpson, and he was comparing Jarrett to Miller, and I decided to go with David. It took me 2yrs to pay off that first rifle, for the unbelievable sum of 7500.00.It was my very first custom rifle.It has been all over the world, and is still the most accurate rifle I have ever shot at Long Range, which is where you seperate the wheat from the chaffe.. My best was 1 1/2" group at 500yds. I can sell that rifle right now for over twice what I paid. Not many modern rifles grow in value. I have had seven of his rifles , and now have 2 that I will probaly keep. Selling the other 5 helped pay for the 2 I keep. I actually owned DMG001, for a while, but another poster on this forum bought it...


Regards

Lee

LeeC,

Thanks to you I believe he may have been a mason too.

I was doing acoustic ceilings for a while and my dad told me that my Uncle David also used to do ceilings also which made me think he must have been a carpenter and not a mason. I am betting that I am getting my uncles mixed up. My dad has four brothers. All of them in construction at one time or another.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
Only David Miller can make a David Miller Co. Classic . Only Echols can make an Echols legend. These guys have there own product and to me are uncomparable to each other or any other rifle.

You just hit the nail on the head as to why certain builders are in such demand and command such prices. They build what is not only best quality but what is unique to them. Any competent machinist can true a Remington action and thread and fit a new barrel but as you said only a David Miller can build a David Miller. Lots of people can sing Willie Nelson but only one person sounds like Willie Nelson.