The subject of the thread is killing one another.... that's what snipers do. Pigs and Deer are covered elsewhere.

I'm sure that post about "cross loading" means something ...... to sophisticated for this old duffer.

Have not heard any real 5 tour snipers dispute anything I "opined", so I'll stick with what works for me.

Crossloading is proper distribution; like not carrying all bolt guns, one guy carrying all your radios, or putting all your dudes in one aircraft.

I understand what you mean with all this. We found an M24 in a cache in Iraq so it wasn't just a Viet Nam thing. Auto loaders have advantages. My crossload always includes auto loaders but I don't always use an M110 or Mk14. Often I use M4 and M249 for security. I have even used the Mk48. The days of 1 or 2 man sniper missions are over given modern force requirements.

So, with other guns providing your security you are free to choose the right tool for the job. Sometimes it is an autoloading 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm and other times it's a bolt .300 Win Mag. For me it's almost never a .50BMG. There is not one best rifle that will get everything done and do it with 100% efficiency.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
The subject of the thread is killing one another.... that's what snipers do. Pigs and Deer are covered elsewhere.

I'm sure that post about "cross loading" means something ...... to sophisticated for this old duffer.


Have not heard any real 5 tour snipers dispute anything I "opined", so I'll stick with what works for me.

The subject of the thread WAS what are snipers shooting not how well we can shoot each other.
But as you said that is what works for you. You have that right. I don't know what 5 tour sniper you are talking about or where the 5 tour came from. I guessing we just need to agree to disagree. We all loved to do what we were trained for. You had to want to be in a spec ops unit it was not something you just woke up and said I think I'll be spec ops today. My classes drop rate was over 80% 19 started, 7 roll backs and 4 graduated.I don't remember picking up one body or watching one man die and saying "man this is great" . To me it was getting the job done and bring everyone home. I guess that is the way I justify it.

quote:

Have you ever asked yourself why the 7.62X51 or .308 Win. is a more accurate round than the 30-06?

No. Why would it be?

It is not, just happens that more time, money and energy have been dedicated to making rifles and ammo for it that are super accurate.

I doubt any of the 308 advocates have ever sent 172 gr FA match boattails down to 1000 yards from a T class 1903 Springfield target rifle. The same level of craftmanship applied to a "modern" rifle and ammunition would yield as good results as any 308.

Heck, my bone stock M 70 300 H&H Bull Gun (scope & gun are 50+ years old) will shoot a heavier bullet faster than any 308 into 1/2 MOA. As I recall a heavier bullet, traveling faster has a longer beaten zone. Could be wrong, but the 338 Lapua appears to confirm my recollection.

Having shot Long Range Prone/Sling/Micrometer sights for quite a number of years I have seen '06 shooters turn in some very good scores at 1000yds. Have heard discussions among shooters that the '06 was not quite as accurate as the 308 and primary reason given was that the cartridge case/powder load was not a "balanced/effecient" case?? Explained to me at the time that the powder charge in '06 did not come close to filling case as compared to the 308 and whether that makes a difference or not, not sure. Do know that the 308 case fills up nicely with decent charge of 4064 so perhaps there is something to excess space in the case.
Used up a few Krieger/Douglas barrels in 308 w/ Sierra 190's at 1000yds and it does well, but if actively shooting today with 30cal would use the 300WinMag. Excellent long range round.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
As I recall a heavier bullet, traveling faster has a longer beaten zone. Could be wrong, but the 338 Lapua appears to confirm my recollection.

Beaten zone refers to machine guns. You are talking about danger space.

Noticed somethng when reading this thread and had to ask?
Why and when was the CIP rating on the lapua dropped from around 68K to 60K? I will continue to load to the higher pressure rating, and continue to smoke 338 rums loaded to 63K pressures. Lapua brass will handle 68K pressures with no problems Remington will marginally hold 63K pressures.

Any verified handloading data that any powder, case or bullet maker will put his name on shows the Lapua and RUM are ballistic twins.
The RUM brass is less expensive and appears to last as long. The Lapua case MAY have a slightly better shape (body taper) for military use where extraction can be an issue in dirty places.

As for the pressure issue, the governing body changed the rules for the 338 but left the 300 (a "wildcat") alone. It's all explained on the good old Internet.

"According to the official C.I.P. decisions and tables edition 2007 the .338 Lapua Magnum case can handle up to 420 MPa (60,916 psi) piezo pressure. This now prevails over the C.I.P. decisions and tables edition 2003, that rated the .338 Lapua Magnum at 470 MPa (68,167 psi) maximum piezo pressure. The 470 MPa (68,167 psi) maximum piezo pressure C.I.P. ruling for the .300 Lapua Magnum cartridge, which is based on the same case, was not accordingly changed."

So you can load it anyway you wish. If you believe 68,000 psi vs the 65,000 of the RUM will allow you to "smoke it", enjoy your delusion while ignoring what real experts limit the cartridge to. Why not just get a 338 WinMag and load it to 80,000 psi and you can really have some exciting moments ?

From your deflection condescending attitude and google regurgitation I take it you do not know why it was dropped?
I wondered if it had anything to do with Remington introducing the 338LM in the 700 action, already read all the crap you copied from the good old net.
Being that I have shot many thousands of RUM and 338LM based rounds, the rem brass does not even come close.
I have seen a 338 LM case withstand a 198,000 PSI without even a loss of gas. For you to state that those cases are same same tells me something.

I have a custom barreled 338 RUM with a 30” lilja barrel.
It started out as a 338 Lapua and shot well. Then I got a good deal on a large lot of 338 RUM brass. So had it rechambered to 338 RUM.
No Change in accuracy. I had not chronographed it when it was chambered in 338 Lapua so I do not know if Velocity has changed.

Why did I chang over?

When I got the rifle in 338 Lapua I did not plan to change it. A friend gave me 50 rounds Lapua brass and loaned me his dies. The rifle shot well.

Before I had a chance to order Lapua Brass and a set of dies I found a large lot RUM brass very cheep. I did the math and in this instance it was worth it for me to rechamber to RUM.

I am positive the Lapua brass is better quality and it does outlast the Remington brass. I have to do a lot more work to Remington brass before it is ready to load.

I would be happy with the 338 RUM or the 338 Lapua. I am cheep so I went with the rem and pay the price in the extra prep time to get the brass ready.


www.Bristol-Bay.com

Eddybo......Amazing ! 1000s of 338 LM and RUM fired, probably the only person not in uniform who has ! 198K pressure eh ? Funny how NO manufacturer, who actually have fired "1000s of rounds" don't seem to be aware that there is (yet another) Internet expert who can leap tall buildings at a single bound.
If you really care why C.I.P changed the pressure limit, perhaps you should ask them directly as I rather doubt any of us are members of that organization.
Meanwhile you keep "smoking the RUMs", although one might suspect you're smoking something else to come up with these wild claims.
As I said the Lapua (which had to be redesigned as the first try failed) is a heavy duty military cartridge, the RUM a sporting cartridge.
I'll buy my brass for $100/100 while the Lapua is
$280/100. I'm sure your's last 3X as long, even with your overloads and much higher bolt thrust
due the case's tapered design.
This is as pointless as the 7x57 vs 7mm08 debates.

As for the 308/30-06 debate. With proper MODERN powder the 06 will push a 208 gr match bullet nearly 200 fps faster than the 308. Thus it will hit a standing man farther away, with less wind effect than a 308. Had NATO and the M 14 never come along, our snipers would still be using 30-06s and doing at least as well as they do with 308.

It's all just picking the fly poop out of the pepper.

What is amazing about shooting thousands of rounds per year? My range is 20 steps from my back door. It is heated and cooled and I shoot twelve months a year. I have several variations of the 338 lapua case and a couple off the RUM. I build rifles which means I have to break them in and work loads for them....and I have the longrange bug.

Don't get all testy because you think I am putting down the 338 RUM because I am not, it is a great round. I use one often for a "light weight" toting around rifle....which means I tote it to my box stand.

It would probably be easier for you to just shut up if you do not know an answer instead of regurgitating crap and trying to act superior. There is no need to be a pest as I assume most already know your reputation Laffin

Downloading a 338L to 338RUM velocities is kinda silly. It is my suspicion that it was done because of the the remington 700 lapuas. If you don't know an answer to that, your crap is useless to me.

eddy, your "style" gives you away. Say hello to Bricktop for me. New members generally don't come on as the world expert on long range magnums.

BTW you did not say you shot 1000s of rounds per year, you said you shot 1000s of rounds of 338 RUM and Lapua over some time period.

1000s of rounds per YEAR ? impressive, I shoot more than that at sporting clays and trap alone every month.

If you really think the Lapua was "downloaded" because of the 700 Remington, you know less about 700s than safe handloading proceedures. If one considers "modern" cartridge design, the RUM is actually a better high pressure design than the Lapua which has considerable body taper to function in semi/full auto weapons under adverse conditions.

The idea that Lapua, SAKO and Accuracy International would just roll over and let C.I.P. downgrade their pet cartridge to satisfy an American manufacturer of sporting rifles is a side splitter as well as beyond what most informed riflemen would call dumb.

I'm sure they really "shot 1000s of rounds" to determine what was appropriate and what was not.
But you'll never know because you are unwilling to contact them to get the answers as they might conflict with your expert opinion. Suggest you switch to BL C 2 for your handloads, then you can run the pressures up ove 100 K PSI. Laffin !

Then again, a real hunter would never admit to "hunting" from a box stand.

Wow you are a pompus SOB aint ya I am not an expert at long range magnums, but am pretty sure that you are sucking hind tit in that department. I doubt anyone is fooled by your apparent lack of any knowledge that cannot be googled.

I am not sure how CIP comes up with their standards, and what factors are considered, thus my original question. If it as you say and Lapua has some say in the cartridge being downgraded pressure wise, then I see why they would roll over, as you stated. Since it is not something you can google maybe these questions will clarify things for you. Do you think they will sell more brass and bullets and loaded rounds if there are more guns chambered in 338L? Do you think they will get more royalties by allowing it to be downgraded for the purpose of letting big green chamber rifles in the 700? Which is the total cruz of my first post, which got your diarrhea of the keyboard flowing and flowing, even though you had no idea of an answer other than what you can google.

I have chambered a few 700s in wildcats baseed on the lapua case 7mm/338Ls and 300 lapua improved. After reading some posts by Jerry Stiller I searched out every one of those owners and offered to buy those rifles, and if they refused asked them to sign a release of liability. I will not chamber any more remingtons in 388L because of the increased bolt thrust. I still think you misunderstand my preference for the lapua. Since you cannot google it maybe this question will let you see where I am coming from. "Which do you think is more important in a cartridge the design or the metallurgy and manufacturing processes?"

My favorite thing about the 338L cases is all the room for improvement. Blow the shoulder forward and minimize the taper and you have one really fine pressure vessel. I know that you do not enjoy wildcatting being that guns are all about money to you and wildcats are harder to sell.

BTW this is where your supposed to make one of your betting challenges. How about this one? We both take our respective rifles and load a round at book max and fire it. Then increase in one grain increments until either a gun explodes or one of us says uncle. Winner gets to keep both guns plus maybe some boot, make it light on your self Mr.Expert. Nevermind I forgot you were the guy who does not pay his bets...that was you right? I thought it was, but when you mentioned Bricktop I knew.