Oh..and Antelope Sniper...Every round has an equal center to base. However, shoulder to base, throat to base, angle of drop to center and PRJB to CSEB all play a concentric role of the projectile exiting the case and entering the bore.

A friendly note: I got paid doing this for a living for the past 38 years. As I stated above, "I usually just sit back and read". I should have known better than to post and will make my exit here. But flying a "BS flag" when you don't know what I'm talking about let-alone what your talking about doesn't really impress those that have advanced knowledge of the subject. In any event, enjoy the sport.....

I never said the 338 RUM wasn't just fine. But I think the price is more comparable than you think, when you consider Lapua brass will give you more firings, albeit costing more. It is also more consistent.

The RUM can have a higher pressure rating, but Lapua brass is still tougher and thicker.

Most of what you are talking about is subjective to the test parameters set by the writer of the test. Secondly maybe you should stay in the back ground because you are so knowledgable we can not keep up with you. I would almost bet you help develope the round from crane. ind. But have you ever taken any of your expertise into the field. How you call anyone friend and the next line you are making him out to be a mental midget to your IQ is beyond me. Those who can do, the rest sit in a lab in white coats patting each other or themselves on the back for things that don't make a hill of beans in the real world.

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
Most of what you are talking about is subjective to the test parameters set by the writer of the test.

A very true statement. However, field operations have pre-defined parameters that are either met, exceeded or simply fail. I don't write the standard nor do I set parameters. I see that the aforesaid is met, why and how it was met and how and why others failed. I have no hand in the development of the .338 Lapua Magnum round. However, I do have engineering solutions that has lead to enhanced performance of this round. In any event, I do not consider anyone a "mental midget" nor do I mean any ill will in any way. Just a "friendly" note was intended for displaying a flag I felt had no earth holding it up. I am not high and mighty, it's just what I do..

There is NO documented evidence that the 338 Lapua Brass lasts any longer than 338 RUM when properly reloaded with top grade equipment and fired in a rifle with equally precise chambering and barrels.
All this reminds me (as I am old) of all the bad press given the 220 Swift for decades, the misinformed who think belted cartridges are belted because it makes the stronger, the differences between a 260 Remington and 6.5X55, the 7mm08 and 7x57 and so on.
The Lapua "violates" modern cartridge design by having considerable body taper where as the RUM has not. It was logical as it is a MILITARY cartridge and the taper aids in both feeding and extraction, much like the 300 H&H vs the 300 WinMag or WSM. Military sniping conditions are far tougher on equipment than 99% of hunting situations.
They are ballistic twins, both powerful and accurate. No big, big game animal smacked with a 285 gr TSX will know if the shooter is shooting a Lapua or RUM.
I see a lot of talking, I don't see any long range groups, science backed reports or reports of failures of either afield.
My new RUM is going on paper, for the first time tomorrow. Be starting out w/Retumbo and 300 gr Bergers/ Probably will also get around to the 245 gr Bore Tech solids as they have a .869 BC (vs the Berger's .818) and can be pushed faster than the Bergers.
When you build a 20 pound single shot rifle with a 36" 3 groove Nitrided barrel, it's not a "walkabout" hunting rifle ...... it's for gongs and paper. Results to follow.

Nice lead into your rifle and nice rifle. (What th) has some documentation on the LM. I saw your rifle on another post. I am looking foward to seeing the groups It'll shoot. Windage and elavation applied to speed,rotation and weight makes everything else subjective.

What the has a nice claim about documentation, and thinks that because he uses alot of big words we should just believe him with him producing his documentation. I suspect we never will see this susposed "boring" documentation.

It's interesting how What The claims to know certain cartridge designs are "just better". Back in the 1970's the .222 Rem was the most common heavy varmit bench rest caliber. It was a family member of mine who first used the .22 Waldog to break the 100 yard group, heavy varmit benchrest world record. This occured at about the same time as "what the" started his career.

The .22 Waldog is about the same volume as the .222 Rem, but is trimmed to 1.375 inches, vs the 1.76 inches of the .222 Rem. Notice this is almost a 20% difference in case length ( and hence reduction in height of the powder colum) with a corresponding increase in width. As I recall, the difference was still measured in a few thousands for an aggragate of 5 groups after the switch fm the .222 rem to the .22 waldog. This difference powder colum dimientions was SIGNIFICANTLY greater then the difference in colum dimentions between the RUM and the Lapua. The Lapua case is a meer 1mm shorter then the RUM making it only 1.4% shorter then the RUM.

But as 45-70 mentioned, height and width are only two of the variable's that effect the efficency of the case. In general, the straigher the case, and the sharper the shoulder the more accurate the round. The Lapua looses on both of these measures.

Earlier you mentioned the importance of the dynamics of the bullet exiting the case and entering the bore. As a benchrest shooter, I'm accutely aware of these issues. But since unlike you, I'm a hand loader, and not a commercial loader, and I load for custom rifles, not just SAAMI spec rifles, I can address these issued in way you can't, such as opting for a short throat, tight neck, and neck sizing. In addition, since the only customer I have to satisfy is the target down range, weather or not my tubular powder grains have a hole down their middle or not (i.e. the "neutral burn", you referred to earlier)is of diminished importance.

I'm still open to being convinced I'm wrong, but I'll need more then a few fancy acronyms designed to daze, confuse, and belittle the majority of the forum members, and your claim that we should just "trust you".

The question was what the military is using these days, not what various bench-resters here say they use or like better, as I'm sure that would fill a thread for weeks, if not years.

Maj. Plaster in his book explains why, of cartridges in current military and police use, the .300 Winchester Magnum has the better long range capability.

Anjin you need to read the whole post to undestand AS point. As for the 300WM it is a great cartridge Major Plaster would probaly recant that statement now. The RUMs, LM and the Barretts can and do shoot futher and more accurately

And the 416 Barrett and (properly loaded) the 50 BMG farther still.

The 300 Win mag is a fine sniper cartridge but there are better 30 caliber magnums, the 300 WM juat won the selection because it is popular and made here.

It seems to me there is a lot of time picking the flypoop out of the pepper.

Just finished reading book about our highest scoring sniper in the sand pit. The vast majority of his kills could have been made with an accurized AR10 in 308. We hear a lot about the mile long shots, but I have yet to see a complete statistical analysis of ALL American sniper kills in the post Vietnam era. My best guess would be that the center of the curve would fall at about 250 yards.

In my experience in this conflict 99% of shots can be executed with a Mk12 and 77grOTM. That rifle is light enough you can use it for everything and still take some longer shots. In a pinch you can shoot another soldier's ammo even if it is M855.

I like the 7.62x51mm in the M24 but hate the M110. Regardless, if I'm going to carry that much weight I want a .300Win Mag and A191 ammo.

I personally HATE the Barrett. There are better .50BMG rifles out there for the same money and weight. I still have trouble wrapping my head around the infatuation with the Barrett. Short of base defense or guys who move mounted I don't see much use for the .50BMG.

I can do anything I need to do with a Mk12 and an XM2010 outside of a FOB/COP. I have no intention of carrying a .50BMG up a mountain if I have a choice.

7mmfreak, I apprciate the perspective of someone with sand in his boots.

You mentioned your dislike for hte M110. Beyond it's weight, would you mind sharing what other attributes of the system you don't like?

My two complaints:

1. I have to work harder to shoot an AR as well as I do a bolt gun. Real or imagined I like the ergonomics of most bolt stocks over the AR style. I dislike the XM2010 chassis compared to more conventional feeling synthetic stock for what it's worth. I just feel better wrapped around a conventional stock.

2. The KAC suppressor sucks. I get weird shifts from them, they take longer to seal, and they are overly long and heavy compared to others. I like the AAC and Surefire cans much more. They have a better attachment and more reliable shifts. The AAC Titan in particular has given me a consistent 6 o'clock shift with next to zero windage deflection. Additionally, the Titan gives me the lowest ES and SD. Without the can my ES is about 60fps, with Titan its about 15fps. Can't explain the why exactly but I can tell you that is what my chrono said for three rifles shooting 10shot strings unsuppressed and suppressed.

I too find an AR type rifle much more difficult to group as well. I think a lot of that is the longer lock time, requiring a better trigger pull and follow through, which is compounded by the fact that the triggers usually aren't all that great, even "match" AR triggers.

That has something to do with it too perhaps. I dislike mostly the feel of them. My hand feels like it is oddly positioned, my head feels pressed down harder, and my positions have to be adjusted to work with an AR platform. Things that feel natural with a bolt gun feel like work with an AR.

In particular though I dislike Knight's M110/Mk11. They shoot ok but they don't shoot as well as others. Their can sucks...a lot.