Amusing, one can only assume that real experience with dedicated long range AR platforms is lacking. When you actutually get out there with a DPMS LR in 260, 308 and 300 SAUM, equipped with a good handgrip, a premium trigger and excellent optics, you will find it will hold it's own with any normal sniper rifle and all but the most gilt edge target rifles. And of course, reloads and followup shots are much faster. If you don't like ARs, that's fine, but putting down their performance is just not factual. Ask Les Baer.

I never said they can't shoot as well as a bolt gun. I have shot a number of them from Knight, LMT, DPMS, and LWRC. Most shoot pretty well. The technical shortcoming of the M-110 is the can and I don't know many real snipers who would disagree. Without the can I have done pretty well with the Knight and know for a fact you can stretch it out to about 1400m.

I said I personally do not like the way they feel. I have to work harder to shoot them. And as for a real battle gun they are a lot like an El Camino; too heavy and long (unless you have a C model) to fight with and not enough ass to justify their weight and length.

Long range target shooting with a DPMS (260, 308, 300SAUM) is not sniping nor are they US Military SNIPER WEAPON SYSTEMS.

I have a dpms sass that will pretty much stack them on top of each other. I understand that they are not on the TO&E. I think that some people shoot them and some don't. I do know the M110 kit is outrageously priced. Have you ever shot the scars heavy.

Yes, but it had a 1-4x Elcan on it and I don't have a lot of experience with it.

45-70, what's up with the controversial attitude over everything you don't agree with?

No one said that ARs can't be as accurate. People have said that they are HARDER to shoot as well. Myself, I attribute my troubles to the increased locktime, although it could certainly be something else. Also, chambers can't be as tight to feed well which could have a slightly negative effect on accuracy as well.

"controversial attitude" where I grew up was called having an opinion you could back up with facts. A "controversial attitude", generally is one that is open to a fact based critique such as "Obama's economice policies are saving the nation". IMHO, blogs are generally filled with "controversial attitudes" ..... try telling a 270 lover that a 30-06 is superior !
Being a "nut behind the bolt" for (now) 54 years, I find nothing difficult in adapting to the AR platform. Have you ever shot a WW I or WW II 1903/1903A4 sniper ? An M-1 C or D? I'll bet a steak dinner any of the men who had them would happily carry a well set up AR sniper platform rather than those "make do with what we have" rifles. Most sniping is not the stuff that makes the headlines, it requires an MOA rifle, with durabilty, fast reloading, at least 10 round capacity and rapid follow up shots. With the exception of the SMLE sniper, the AR is the first platform "we" have had ever that met those criteria. I noted that no one was able to produce that normalized curve of sniper kills by our troops since Vietnam. I believe it would be enlightening to the public that appears to place a premium on the one, 1 mile shot vs killing 100s at <500 meters. Having been behind almost ever "sniper" rifle of fame from the 1809 British Baker to contemporary AR platforms, I'd prefer the latter due to the factors listed above.
Just food for thought ..... I can get 15 rounds out of my WW I USMC sniper faster than and of our current Reminton 700 based fixed magazine rifles. Why ? because the old Winchester scope slides forward an you can reload using stripper clips. A bit more difficult to overrun a sniper who can reload quickly than one who cannot (as we learned in "Nam"), hence the addition of the "Scout" who carried an M14/16 to deal with spotting and protecting the sniper from a +6 enemy assault.
That's also another vote for the AR platform ..... high cap and rapid reloads.
For those who may have never seen a WW I USMC 1903 Springfield this will give you an idea, although the scope mount is different, it still can be slid forward to load with stripper clips.

I feel as if you just went off on a gigantic tangent with which no one asked about.

There's no doubt in many situations the AR platform is highly superior to a bolt action.

The fact raised was that several of a small group found ARs more difficult to shoot as accurately as a bolt action, whether they are capable of the same accuracy or not. I have plenty of time behind many rifles, some older military ones as well to have a leg to stand on when I make my claim.

I am proud to be able to be on a post with such knowledgeable people. 45-70 if this was a polictical blog I would comment on your statement. 7mm I appericate your service to our country. I did 26.5, 19.5 in spec ops I loved it. I am not a sniper I have worked with them and had them work for me but never went to school. I guess I said all that to put some credit to what follows. I believe that the AR platform is one of the most accrizable weapons to ever be made but I don't care if it can stack them or not if you can't shoot it, it is worthless. The old saying a good shooter can make a rifle look good and a bad shooter can't shoot a good rifle is all to true. I'm not saying you can't shoot. We had a saying you fall to the lowest level of you training when the shtf. I also know that the better you feel and the more relaxed and fitted to the rifle you are the better you shoot. You hit the nail on the head when you said you had to work to shoot the M110 at your level shooting should be natural. I reall appericate your input on this subject. One question what magnifcation do you like for 1000 yard shots?

Tyler, I too have "spent some time behind various rifles" over 5 decades. I hold an U.S. Army Expert badge in Rifle (1903 Springfield & M-1), Carbine (M-1) and Pistol (1911) also a USAF Expert ribbon for the M16 and the 1911. Also was a member of rifle and pistol teams in military school, military college and on 6 years active duty in the USAF.
IMHO anyone who cannot shoot an AR platform with the trigger change and good optics, just is poorly trained or a bad shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ytAFXw&feature=g-upl

I can shoot an AR just fine. All I am saying is I, and others, find it harder to shoot as well.

Tyler is a very intelligent young man. He is a 100% certified rifle loony. I think all he does is go to school and shoot. His choices, like the 338 Lapua rifle he shows, reflect more than a bit of comparison shooting.

Having served more than three tours of duty in RVN and trained in the Americal Sniper School I agree totally with him that the bolt action rifle is by far the superior platform for sniping. I base that on having used the M-14 with ART Scope, as well as scoped M70's and M700's. We had very accurate models of all three in our weapons conex, that went out in the field if anyone thought them useful.

Precision Shooting Magazine had a sizable sum of $$$ available for years for someone who could bring an AR-15 chambered in .223 that would agg .250" at 100 yards for five 5-shot groups with a 13.5lb weight, with scope. Les Baer and Bill Wylde both took a shot at it (pun intended) more than once, but nobody, to the best of my knowledge, ever got a dime...

quote:

Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
One question what magnifcation do you like for 1000 yard shots?

My thanks to you too. In response to your question, the first shot I ever took at 1000m or beyond was in school with a fixed 10x. I still feel like 1x per 100m is perfectly adequate for most stuff but rarely use anything much over 12x or 16x. Most of my stuff tops out at 10x, 14x, or 20x but the higher range of the optic doesn't get used all that much.

Need I say that to kill people with a .223 you dont need 1/4" groups ?
BUT to stop a charging squad of bad guys about to overrun your 300 yard hide,if you have a 5/6/10 shot bolt action you will be dead. (Ever see all the pics of NVA and VC carrying around AMERICAN bolt action sniper rifles ? Think they got them at Wallie World ?)If you had an MOA AR or M 14 you might survive. Again we have "experts" who are not snipers and most have probably never been shot at. A trip thru the extensive sniper book library (starting with Sniping in France).
This is a pointless debate as it is not taking place and a military sniper school among people who have "been there done that". All I know for sure is that my DPMS AR 10 LR in 7.62 with a fixed 10X Unertl can ring the "man gong" every shot @ 600 yards and the 300 SAUM ditto at 1000 with its IOR 4-28x56. I'm sure at age 70 I'd never make it through a government sniper school BUT I am reasonably sure that I was set up in a good hide, I have the semi-automatic weapons, ammunition, optics and shooting ability to kill you before you even knew the bullet was on the way, out to 1000 yards. Antelope have a lot better eyes than men and I just hung my 8th buck on the wall.
Turning off notifications.

There is a reason none of us have only one gun available any longer. Right tool for the job. I haven't had to fight any NVA in this war yet but if I do I'll be covered with the way I cross load the team's guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Need I say that to kill people with a .223 you dont need 1/4" groups ?
BUT to stop a charging squad of bad guys about to overrun your 300 yard hide,if you have a 5/6/10 shot bolt action you will be dead. (Ever see all the pics of NVA and VC carrying around AMERICAN bolt action sniper rifles ? Think they got them at Wallie World ?)If you had an MOA AR or M 14 you might survive. Again we have "experts" who are not snipers and most have probably never been shot at. A trip thru the extensive sniper book library (starting with Sniping in France).
This is a pointless debate as it is not taking place and a military sniper school among people who have "been there done that". All I know for sure is that my DPMS AR 10 LR in 7.62 with a fixed 10X Unertl can ring the "man gong" every shot @ 600 yards and the 300 SAUM ditto at 1000 with its IOR 4-28x56. I'm sure at age 70 I'd never make it through a government sniper school BUT I am reasonably sure that I was set up in a good hide, I have the semi-automatic weapons, ammunition, optics and shooting ability to kill you before you even knew the bullet was on the way, out to 1000 yards. Antelope have a lot better eyes than men and I just hung my 8th buck on the wall.
Turning off notifications.

I didn't know that we were talking about stalking each other. I have great respect for snipers, that being said I think any of us could hide at a range given to our ability and shoot each other. Un less you know the other personnally been there and done that is meaningless. I do agree that my DPMS SASS will stack them on top of each other. I am trying to build a 600 yard range when it is finished I'll see what it can do on that. There way to many deer and pigs to start hunting each other.