quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
Another AZWriter I see what you are saying about the side focus on the rifle scope. Going back quite a few years my long range shooting has been in prone position and the spotting scope located very near to me w/ angle eye piece so as to merely glance w/ left eye to see what is going on out there or with experienced spotter accompanying me. Thanks for your expression of confidence in my wind reading ability but I can assure you I have made some bad calls in the past, not paying attention to the subtle changes going on at the time.
I frequently see shooters make larger wind corrections than they need to do and hear them after the match expressing they had some 8 moa of adjustment on at the 1000yd. line. That is some 80", near twice the size of the target face! Serving as coach on rifle team had a shooter who would ignore corrections given for both elevation and wind yet the others did as advised and his hits were way off. I was using one of those huge team scopes, Unertl, and could see a lot more than he could. Correction I gave was only 2 moa and he confessed he was using 6-7 moa. This match was "irons only" and he does not take directions from someone using such an optic to pick up on the wind/mirage is foolish. Doubt he learned anything from the experience. Reminds me of the story about leading the horse to water, etc., etc. Very much enjoy reading about those shooting long range for it always fascinated me being able to control the flight of that small bullet at long distances, it's both a science and an art from my viewpoint, some say a "black art."

When I take inexperienced shooters out I love sitting behind the scope and calling the wind. If you shoot at rocks or gongs you get instant feedback. This assumes they are a reasonably good shot, but if I put them prone using my .220 Swift with 80 AMAX's (light recoil) it normally is worth it.

In fact, I was thinking it would be great training to rent a laser doppler anemometer and practice calling the wind with my scope. Actually, it would be interesting just to see how much the composite wind changed during the TOF. Bryan Litz once set up a series of anemometers over a range and IIRC the wind changed enough during the bullet's flight to cause problems.

quote:

Originally posted by 7mmfreak:


I disagree that we need a .25MoA gun and load for anything except the smallest targets since that level of precision doesn't appreciably increase hit percentage.

I think you can say the same thing about velocity - I don't get trying to get another 50 or 100 fps more velocity at the cost of recoil, brass, barrel wear, etc - assuming the accuracy is there. The extra speed doesn't translate into measurably less wind misses - in fact, if you are concerned about shooting due to barrel life, it is an impediment to getting better.

Agreed.

Velocity does not always equate to accuracy and as I tell some, you just "miss faster" with greater velocity and less accuracy. Local died in the wool bench shooter is super critical of anyone putting shots through their barrel faster than one per every 10 minutes or so, says wears out barrels if shooting any quicker.
He is absolutely shocked that a Long Range match calls for 22 shots in 22 minutes and tells me the barrel is ruined by doing so. Realize it is an entirely different world shooting wise, but can say that quality barrel in 308 after some 2500+ rounds still will deliver sub moa groups of 5 easily with suitable loads. You can't load anemic loads for the 308 and do well at extended range as 1000yds, it has to be a stout load to keep it supersonic/accurate. Different strokes for different, and I really mean different folks.

If he is serious about that ten minute thing, I would stop taking his advice on anything.

BR gives you 7.5 minutes to fire as many sighters as you want, and five on target.

His data suggests one fouler/sighter, and one shot on target. Definitely makes for one-hole groups, literally as well as figuratively speaking.

I tend not to take any advise from the fellow regarding actual shooting for my use of a bench/rest is very limited. Now will say he is quite knowledgeable regarding loads, but in calibers I do not shoot. Give full credit to bench shooters for they have added greatly to the knowledge base of all shooters, but their quest to deliver the shots in as small a group as possible versus score on a target at 600yds. or more is another world altogether.
Would mention that a local group of bench shooters in my area have developed a 20 caliber and shoot at 1000yds. with some outstanding results. Have seen some of their targets with groups of 5 shots under 1 moa at the 1000yd. line. Am told velocity is very near 4000fps in order to help defeat the wind exposure during flight but understand that the bullets are custom made for such shooting.

I've never been super impressed by the BR crowd. They are good at that one thing and have advanced a lot of concepts in the precision world but lots of them don't know much about any other aspect of LR or Practical riflery. I personally know a few and they are generally pretty pompous and make a lot of self righteous claims while being ignorant of their own ignorance. What works in a BR rifle doesn't necessarily work in a match or practical rifle but they don't get it.

Not to demean the BR shooters but older, long time High Power shooter, told me once the biggest difference between BR shooters and HP shooters is that you can always tell a BR shooter for his trousers are creased to a knifes edge. HP shooters will without hesitation drop to the ground in a mud hole and begin shooting and don't give a second thought to how hot their barrels are in doing so.

I'd rank High Power shooters higher if they could 5-shot groups under an inch at 1000yards on an every match basis. They shoot well, considering the handicaps they have. Not to offend,

I shot a 5-shot group at 100yds with a borrowed LV/Sporter rifle one year at the Super Shoot. It measured .043", and was good for for 7th place (iirc) out of 60 shooters on that relay.

These days, the "F" class guys are using similar equipment, ie front and rear rests.

I'm assuming you have an extra zero. How about 20 shots in an inch and a quarter without sand bags or bipods? I think anyone can shoot with tablelegs and scope bolted on the gun.

forty-three thousandths of an inch, center to center with a borrowed 6PPC.

Different accuracy standards, records, and expectations.

The CZ I shot my Cape Buffalo with shot just under two inches at two hundred yards with a ten pound 450 Dakota from a table on my elbows. 500gr solids and softs at 2470fps.

There is relevance in what you say Sam, but absolutes are absolutes.

Anybody can shoot from a sturdy bench, but it is fairly obvious that the record holder BR shooters are the best.

I believe the 300yd record for a LV/Sporter 6PPC is five shots you can hide with a dime.

Enjoy the Holiday, those of you working and contributing to my SS check, which came came on time last week. I'm going to spend every dime on gun stuff!

thanks,

Rich

I've got guns (including muzzleloaders) that will shoot in the .1s and .2s from bipod and rear bag but not in the zeros. I shot a group in the .0s with a friend's .284 Shehane. Who cares. Shooting .0s is awesome but neck turn, minimal neck tension/soft seat, minimal sized cartridges only work in BR gun. Those load practices don't work in "hard use" rifles. And who uses 24x and higher fixed power scopes except bench guys. They are responsible for better bullets, better actions, and better barrels. They are like Q.

The Bonds of rifles are XC, HP, Palma/Fullbore, and Practical shooters. BR is artificial shooting because you aren't doing any work. Take a BR shooter and put him behind a barricade with a sling and sandsock and have him shoot an 8" plate from a knee. In PRS (or any other practical match) there are no sighters, misses are misses and par times are around 90s to clean the field. Have him go prone and sling in and shoot 20 plus 2 sighters.

I'm not demeaning them either, just saying that BR is a long ways from being the epitome of rifle marksmanship. It is the epitome of testing rifles.

Local bench rest shooter I referred to earlier almost always blames an errant shot on the wind and that is only at 100yds, rarely shoots at even 200yds. Other than a super strong wind do I pay any attention to the wind until 300yds. or beyond. He will not use the wind drum on his scope for he feels it "will mess up my zero...??) I well realize he is trying to place all shots in the same hole and I for score, but he has no concept of reading the wind and making appropriate adjustments. The way I look at bench shooters is they are pulling a switch on a machine as opposed to operating "the machine" and managing it to gain better performance, very little human input if you will. That being said, if they enjoy shooting in that fashion, so be it, but observing two guys carry the rifle to the bench due to weight is not a rifle, but a mechanical device; hence, a machine. I am leaving shortly for the range to shoot my 45/70 and 9.3x62 rifles and not from the bench nor with optics. I am sure if there are any bench shooters there they will wonder what I am doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:
The way I look at bench shooters is they are pulling a switch on a machine as opposed to operating "the machine" and managing it to gain better performance, very little human input if you will.

In other words it is more a test of equipment than skills. And that test usually falls to the man with the thickest wallet. I have to agree with 7mm freak, who cares...

Over the years, I have done my share of mid and long range shooting, both sling and F class. One thing that I have not read about is one's ability to fire the perfect shot. Everyone wants to talk about rifles, caliber's, scopes, bullets etc. How many of you have ever fired a match where every shot fired was perfect? I feel that actually firing a perfect shot is one of the most important elements of long range shooting. Have you ever been guilty of "bull gazing"? How many of you have read Nancy's book? I liked the information in it so much that I bought several and gave them to my shooting buddies for Christmas presents. http://www.rifleshootingbynancy.com/index.html There is a lot of pertinent information in there, even for us old time Masters. Long range shooting is an accumulation of skills, most of them acquired through experience. To become proficient in the mid and long-range game, you need to get a lot of experience actually doing it. Competition shooting is one of the best ways to gain experience. It makes you accelerate your learning process. One other thing that helps is to shoot year around. That way, you won't have to relearn skills that you have lost during the "off" season. Living here in Alaska, I am extremely aware of that! Three weeks ago, I won our F class mid-range regional. Our season is over for the year and I will not get to shoot a competition until April. You will actually see the rust come off of me and my gun when we first start next Spring. Years ago, we used to travel "outside" to matches in the Fall and Winter. It sure helped. Besides, it is a great chance to catch up with the guys that you only see at Perry.
Craig Parker -- Favor Center