quote:

Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
I disagree with setting your wind conditions or that shooting a 22LR isn't useful. I shoot in any wind I can get. Your wind formulas may not mirror your CF when shooting RF but you have to stay on top wind more so it's great practice. I do a lot of barricade work at 100 to 200yds for PRS practice. A PCP airgun works too; I can shoot alts in the backyard that way.

I disagree that we need a .25MoA gun and load for anything except the smallest targets since that level of precision doesn't appreciably increase hit percentage. A half minute gun is good enough. I understand we are reducing error but your wind reading can't be overcome by precision and most misses are from wind or range error.

Ammo is important. Your can shoot small groups at 100yds but who cares. They are not an absolute measure of precision. Poor MV deviation will causes misses past 600m.

Zero and check zero often. You wouldn't believe how often I RO a match where guys don't have a good zero. An improper zero will causes misses with data you verified before at some point in the past when your gun was zeroed.

I agree

The more money that you spend on a scope trumps a lesser cost scope that tracks .... nope

For they money SWFA

I too love SWFA scopes. So much adjustment and track so well!

I only pretend to be a long range shooter. You need a dependable reliable, scope and rifle. Note I did not say expensive. Most important, good shooting habits and practice, practice, practice. Almost every casual shooter doesn't practice enough!

Reading the wind 101..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j4qoGrj0UU

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Most important, good shooting habits and practice, practice, practice.

Amen to that. A#1 = Fundamentals must be solid and consistent. If your position, stance, rifle position, trigger squeeze etc. are inconsistent, then all the equipment, precision ammunition and even ability to dope the wind in the world are never going to be enough.

I think back about the many rounds fired at what I call long range, 6,8,9,& 1000yds, using micrometer sight system, sling/prone, and frequently see those using optics not producing good scores. I am referring to target shooting here. As for shooting at game at those distances not something I would attempt for distance is likely unknown(exact distance that is)and even if took the shot doubt the impact would be a fatal one for the game, lot of SWAG in that situation. If had a spotter with appropriate ranging device that would be a different deal altogether.
Keep in mind that the bulls eye on the 1000yd. target face is 44" in diameter and X ring some 10" in diameter. It has happened, but I have never seen a shooter "clean" the 1000yd. target with whatever scope or sight system being used, close but not a perfect score. Out of a possible score of 200, best I have ever shot was a 196 w/ 12 X's using 308 and the rifle was a sub moa rifle, done with micrometer sights, prone/sling. High 180's best I ever managed to do with use of scope system. Complaining one day at match to very experienced shooter about my performance with scope his answer was simply that I needed to practice more using the scope which he always shot with his Unertl 16x and routinely shot in the high 190's at 1000yds.
I did manage to beat him at a 600yd. match(one time only) and told him he needed to practice more with peep sights, my day in the sun. Few years ago purchased an LRB M14SA NM rifle and recently rigged it for optics(Leup.Mark 4 10X)and even though the rifle is very accurate for that platform, I shoot better groups/scores with the issue sights, old habits hard to break. I can read the wind and mirage reasonably well to control my shot placement, but the magnification of the scope is my enemy for it reveals all of my flaws in holding the rifle whereas the peep sights do not and creates confusion in my mind when to break the shot. Front sight I use is a post and when it is in the so called sweet spot I break the shot after I have double checked the wind/mirage. I see new shooters show up at a match with the very latest, finest, high magnification optics and their performance is very predictable, poor. It takes a very skilled, practiced marksman to shoot an optic with magnification over 16X in prone/sling position at long range targets. A quick check at to what magnification military units use around the globe you will find that most are no more than 10X and several less, it is simply easier to master and few are variables, fixed power for simplicity and reliability. (For civilian use the SWFA 10X is an excellent choice.) As for using the 22LR for practice and developing wind reading skill that may not work for everyone, but for me anyway it will teach you to be on the lookout for those subtle changes in conditions and your managing the rifle as it should be when breaking the trigger. Holes in the target will be most revealing as to your skill.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Reading the wind 101..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j4qoGrj0UU

He lost me in the first 3 minutes when he said a wind from 7:30 (a quartering wind) is a half value wind. Wrong; it is 3/4 value (more precisely, 71%).

A lot of shooters don't realize a wind from 7 o'clock is half value - and one from 6:30 is about a 1/4 value. It is why I hate winds fishtailing behind me or toward me.

Dating clear back to the introduction of the Springfield '03 days, there were/are tables(actually it is a formula for such calculations) indicating wind adjustments for each direction/angle on a clock face. I am not smart enough to remember all 12 of them, so anything less than full value(3 or 9 o'clock) I simply multiply the range/distance to target, est. velocity of the wind, divide that number by 1000 and take a percentage, normally 50-60% of the answer. Easy to do and quick and certainly not a perfect system but it is rare that the first shot is not on the target face at ranges of 1000yds. or less. Wind speed is fairly easy to predict, but that direction as to exactly which direction clock face wise is difficult, so take the best answer I can come up with, average if you will, works for me and might add that any electronic devices are not permitted on the firing line so no high tech wind meters, barometric pressure, altitude, humidity, phase of the moon, just you and the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Reading the wind 101..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j4qoGrj0UU

He lost me in the first 3 minutes when he said a wind from 7:30 (a quartering wind) is a half value wind. Wrong; it is 3/4 value (more precisely, 71%).

Youre right, he was pretty ho-hum about specific values. But I dont think that was the lesson he was giving that day. I thought the video was a useful basic explanation on the methods of reading the wind.

quote:

Originally posted by Instructor:

I did manage to beat him at a 600yd. match(one time only) and told him he needed to practice more with peep sights, my day in the sun.

Priceless..

re do the math. Max wind deflection is from one of the four major compass points. In this case, 3 or 9 o'clock. Half of that angle results in half the stated wind mph deflection.

Not to belabor the topic, but from my experience a wind coming from either 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock, other than a gale force wind, has less impact on the flight of the bullet versus other directions. I would normally take the shot without wind adjustment or at most a "click" or so to keep shot in 10 or X ring. Unfortunately in such straight away wind the mirage becomes your enemy and careful to double check for a "boil" which will impact on the elevation of the bullet, cardinal rule don't shoot in a boil condition. If by chance there is a bluff/bank in front of your muzzle and wind coming at you, the wind will push your bullet upwards coming up from that bluff/bank in front of you. Any grass, weeds, brush along the edge of that area will indicate to you the upward push of the wind. Can turn an X ring hold at 1000yds. into a high 8 or 7 hit at near 12 o'clock. Wind often has a "pattern" of directions and important that studying these patterns through spotting scope and takes some time to determine those patterns in order to control the flight of the bullet. Realize that it is not practical for shooting at game normally but if set up waiting for game to appear out there, studying the wind patterns can lead to better results. The rifle scope is not capable of providing you with the wind dope you need and a quality spotting scope is needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
re do the math. Max wind deflection is from one of the four major compass points. In this case, 3 or 9 o'clock. Half of that angle results in half the stated wind mph deflection.

No, you are wrong ISS. The math you use is trigonometry. The deflection of a bullet from 7:30 (that is halfway between 6 and 9 o'oclock) is equal to sin(45) (if you use excel it is sin(radians(45)), which is .707. A wind from 7 oclock is 1/3 of 90 degrees or 30 degrees. Sin(30) = .5, which means a wind from 7 o'clock has half the deflection of a one from 9 o'clock - not 1/3. At 6:30 the angle is 15 degrees; sin(15) = .258, or roughly 1/4 the value of a wind from 90 degrees.

I was shooting yesterday in a fishtailing wind that was gusting from maybe 8 to 12 mph (at my site), sometimes more. To make matters worse, it was cloudy and I had no mirage no matter where I focused. The wind on my flag that I set up in front of my appeared to be blowing straight away, then slightly left, then slightly right, but dirt tossed in the air was blowing toward 11 oclock. I was shooting at 800 yards and held 1 MOA right; shot was about 5 inches left. Second shot was right above my 3 inch bull. Shot some more with a 300 RUM and 208 AMAX bullets; drift was slightly more but had the same result: the deflection was something to be considered.

On a wind that varies from 8 to 10 o'clock you might have a lot more deflection but slight changes in angles don't have nearly the impact. For example, a wind from 8 o'clock has 91% the full value of one at 9. So from 8 to 10 the most you are going to be off is 9% which I would argue you can't compensate for anyway.

Compare that to a wind that shifts from 6 oclock to 8 o'clock - the same 66 degree spread as from 8 to 10. The correct deflection can vary from 0 all the way to 91% the full value. One that fishtails between 5 and 7 has full values from 50% left to 50% right.

Instructor: I agree that the best quality spotter you can find is the best for judging mirage/wind, but lately I have found I am better off spinning my side parallax focus, seeing the mirage, judging the prevailing condition, spinning it back into focus, and shooting. At least when I am prone; I can't do that sitting. Of course, if I had you behind the scope I could just hold where you called the wind.

Another AZWriter I see what you are saying about the side focus on the rifle scope. Going back quite a few years my long range shooting has been in prone position and the spotting scope located very near to me w/ angle eye piece so as to merely glance w/ left eye to see what is going on out there or with experienced spotter accompanying me. Thanks for your expression of confidence in my wind reading ability but I can assure you I have made some bad calls in the past, not paying attention to the subtle changes going on at the time.
I frequently see shooters make larger wind corrections than they need to do and hear them after the match expressing they had some 8 moa of adjustment on at the 1000yd. line. That is some 80", near twice the size of the target face! Serving as coach on rifle team had a shooter who would ignore corrections given for both elevation and wind yet the others did as advised and his hits were way off. I was using one of those huge team scopes, Unertl, and could see a lot more than he could. Correction I gave was only 2 moa and he confessed he was using 6-7 moa. This match was "irons only" and he does not take directions from someone using such an optic to pick up on the wind/mirage is foolish. Doubt he learned anything from the experience. Reminds me of the story about leading the horse to water, etc., etc. Very much enjoy reading about those shooting long range for it always fascinated me being able to control the flight of that small bullet at long distances, it's both a science and an art from my viewpoint, some say a "black art."