The most I've ever dialed in at a live target was around 150 inches. It was in a 40 mph crosswind, but since it was steady with no gusts, and at a perfect full value. The wind was very PREDICTABLE so I felt pretty comfortable with the setup. Predictability is more important then the number of inches.

I wanted to learn more about wind reading so I began target shooting about 4 years ago.
I recently discovered that I am relying on wind flags heavily and need to look at natural indicators such as leaves / grass etc compared to the flags to gain useful experience.

However back to the original question - we have target rifle [peep sights] who shoot regular possibles at 700yds with a 13"bull.
My scope division has a 6"V bull which needs to be shot as a possible to be competitive.
We now shoot a Super V which is approx 3"at 700 yds. At this stage no one is shooting a Super V possible.
The best wind reader wins! Our equipment has improved out of sight over the last 10 years also.
The most competitive guys have rifles capable of .2 moa or less.
APB

Hey AZ!

I'll tell you what gives me LR windage confidence and it happened last Sunday.

Trust you data is the moral.

Went out to just nail some drop data down. Painted a plate at 425 yards planning on adjusting the velocity in my BulletFlight ballistic program till actual drop matched output...looking for center punch hits on the plate.

Had an honest 15 mph crosswind from 3 O'clock, gusting to 20. Plugged that info into the program and it told me on my Phone HC that wind drift would be .8 mRad.

Now at 425 yards holding off just about a full mil looks wrong!

I held .5 mil and missed left twice.

Holding 1 mil dead on made hits slightly right.

Ballistics programs work if you input the correct data! Trust them!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Hey AZ!

I'll tell you what gives me LR windage confidence and it happened last Sunday.

Trust you data is the moral.

Went out to just nail some drop data down. Painted a plate at 425 yards planning on adjusting the velocity in my BulletFlight ballistic program till actual drop matched output...looking for center punch hits on the plate.

Had an honest 15 mph crosswind from 3 O'clock, gusting to 20. Plugged that info into the program and it told me on my Phone HC that wind drift would be .8 mRad.

Now at 425 yards holding off just about a full mil looks wrong!

I held .5 mil and missed left twice.

Holding 1 mil dead on made hits slightly right.

Ballistics programs work if you input the correct data! Trust them!

I couldn't agree more. Imput good data and the out put will be correct

hey, I agree that it is pure math. However, when the wind is gusting, by definition it is changing in the time it takes the bullet to go 800 yards or so (where flight time is going to be a second even with a 300SMK at 2900 fps). So at some point, taking a long poke to try and put your bullets within 5 inches of where you aim becomes mathematically impossible.

Now if the wind is steady, I agree. Hold off and shoot.

I went out Wed and shot at 750 yards. Waited until the wind was calm, which is a gamble to start with. Missed my 3 inch circle (I only shoot sitting with a bipod) by an inch or two. Was shooting a custom .300 RUM. Switched to a very accurate .308 at 700 yards. Wind picked up. Held two MOA lines into the wind. Very nearly hit my 3 inch circle. Shot again. Totally fooled - hit 10 inches to the left. Third shot I felt the wind shift, held to the right of the target and hit again. Wind died. Held no drift. Hit again. Total score: 4/5, which is only about 80% hit rate. Not good enough for hunting, IMO.

I went out again on Thursday with my .308. First shot is held about 1.5 MOA into the wind and hit. Missed the second shot.

Now this rifle, a Browning X Bolt I am shooting for a story, may not be as accurate as some of my others. And with a drift of 4.5 inches per one mile of drift it becomes damn lucky to hit at 10 inch target 90 percent of the time.

I don't doubt drift calcs are correct, but my point is at some range it simply becomes impossible to read the wind that accurately. At 1200 yards, for example, a 300 SMK at 3000 fps will drift 7 inches in a one mile per hour wind, or 3.5 inches in a 1/2 mile wind. TOF is 1.6 seconds. You can record wind in any number of places and measure a variation of 1 mph every 1.6 seconds. It simply becomes impossible. Now is it possible to shoot a deer at 1200 yards? I am sure it is. Is it possible to do it 90 percent of the time? No way. At least, not with a shot in the heart/lung area. I suppose if your idea is to eviscerate it with a 300 SMK, oh well...

Guess what?

I agree!

It becomes 100% about the WIND!

i use my TMR.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Plugged that info into the program and it told me on my Phone HC that wind drift would be .8 mRad. ...

Meanwhile the Game walked away and the Target fell over.

quote:

Meanwhile the Game walked away

HC, that's part of the reality of LRH. You have alot of variable to calculate, and calculate accuratly. If you have to let a particular set up go to avoid an inhumane shot, then so be it. Even though the long range hunter has more options avalible to them, it's still a game of patience, planning, and quality shots.

Hey HC!

Don't you have any rifles with laminated data on the stock or hanging off of your scope? It really works good with those dial thingys on the top and side of your scope.

And if you'd quit using your computer that uses punch cards in Fortran or Basic for your ballistic calculations:



and your wind meter:



The above are waaaay too tough to carry around with you in your pack

You need this:



For wind and atmospheric readings and this thingy in the bottom middle called a "cellular phone".



The other pics around it are "screen shots" of different screens in the BulletFlight program.

In the reality of a hunting situation with a data card printed for drop and a full value 10 mph wind, it's simple to look at after ranging the target. Then it's just read the wind meter or use experience for wind speed, dial drop, hold off for wind.

For target shooting, the PDA run ballistic program is quick and simple because steel plates don't blow over or run off

We've had a really windy year so far. I've enjoyed going to the range on windy as heck days to see what happens to your bullet at long range in conditions that you'd never shoot big game in. No one is ever there. Being a fair weather shooter will never help you improve. We shoot in bad wind at long range at Raton just about every shoot this year.

Chalk it up to practice.

amen

quote:

We've had a really windy year so far. I've enjoyed going to the range on windy as heck days to see what happens to your bullet at long range in conditions that you'd never shoot big game in. No one is ever there. Being a fair weather shooter will never help you improve. We shoot in bad wind at long range at Raton just about every shoot this year.

Chalk it up to practice.

Amen to that Rick. Shooting when the wind calm is pretty much a waste of time; kind of like shooting a clay target set on a dirt bank with a shotgun.

There is a big difference between shooting at long range and hunting at long range, especially a big game animmal. One can shoot on a long range known distance course and get quite good at it because one knows the range, the sight settings or the hold off and can quickly jusdge the wind and other conditions. After a bit, if you are a decent shooter and have good equipment, a high percentage of hits is quite possible even in windy conditions. However, take the same equipment and go where you don't know the ranges, aren't sure of the wind condition, and the targets pop up and down at various ranges givng little time to make the shot. Such as in long range ground squirrel, woodchuck, rock chuck or PD shooting. After a couple hours and numerous shots you can get it sorted out and do pretty good. However, the first few shots will be a low percentage of hits.

With big game how many shots do you get before you get it all "figured" out. In target shooting you get sighters or you shoot the same target again and again at the same range.

How close to the reality of deer, antelope or elk hunting is that? Not very close at all. I will say that skill at the one certainly gives an advantage to the other but with big game we are talking about one shot and it hitting the heart lung kill zone every time. I'm also talking about a hunting rifle here and not a stylized light weight target rifle with maxed out to the rules of the game bipod and shot 90+% prone and that is simply carried from shooting position to shooting position. The hunting rifle is one you'll carry all day long up mountains, across canyons and be able to shoot accurately from any position.

When that deer, antelope or elk presents a shot are you going to be able to use a range finder, dig out a wind meter and have lots of time to judge the correct hold off for the wind? What if it's across a canyon and there is not indicators of wind between you and the game? What if light is fading fast, are going to take the shot? What if the animal is moving and only stands for momenst at a time? Yup, lots of difference there compared to a dinger thats way up a mountains ided and has been for several years you been shooting at it.

To answer the question; if the "game" is varmints and I am in a set position with a good rest, know the range, know the wind conditions (direction and speed) I will use both elevation and windage on the target style scopes I have on such rifles. Elevation corrections is easily monitered via witness marks on the elevation turret. Windage likewise is easily manageable via witness marks. Even in really windy conditions I find that I've never used a complete revolution of the windage knob on any scope I've used. Most of these scope are quality scopes with repeatable adjustments. My percentage of hits is always much higher when using the adjustments than when using elevation or windage hold off. Some reticles do provide better precision for hold off than others but they are not as precise as making sight corrections. Shooting small varmints at long range is akin to precision target shooting. How many long range match/target shooters use hold off? None is the answer and there is a very good reason for it.

Now if the "game" is big game such as deer, antelope, sheep or elk there are other considerations than just hitting the animal. You must hit it in the kill zone. The bullet you hit it with must be of proper construction to give sufficient terminal ballistics. The bullet must retain sufficient velocity and ft/ls of energy at the distance of the shot. You must know your cone of fire (practical accuracy) with that rifle under field conditions. You must be able to use a range finder or have a reason guestimate of the range. You must be able to accurate judge the wind speed and direction between you and the animal. You must know the uphill/downhill correction if any. Lots to know, eh?

I have my own limitations. On my hunting rifles I use reasonable scopes of 10X or under, usueally 3.5 x10 or 3x9 power scopes with positive and repeatable elevation adjustments. I practice using the hunting load with these rifles at various ranges out to my limitations. On sheep, deer and antelope I will shoot long range to 600 yards if I am in a very solid prone position and have time to figure all the conditions and know I can put a first shot into the kill zone, no guess but know. I will make an elevation adjustment and then hold off for wind. Simply because the wind is variable and the amount I hold off may be decided while looking through the scope just before the shot. I will not take a long range shot over 300 yards in a wind over 10 mph. On elk my max range is 500 yards. Both ranges are determined by the retained bullet velocity and energy. Since my big game hunting rifles are sub moa capable under the best of conditions and I can shoot them with 1.5 moa cone of fire at those ranges the accuracy is there. I the conditions aren't good or variable, I can't get a good ranging, can't get a solid shooting position or it is too windy the ranges I set as max for me get shorter as circumstance warrents.

Larry Gibson

Much wisdom, good post Larry.

quote:

You must know your cone of fire (practical accuracy) with that rifle under field conditions. You must be able to use a range finder or have a reason guestimate of the range. You must be able to accurate judge the wind speed and direction between you and the animal. You must know the uphill/downhill correction if any. Lots to know, eh?

Yes, it is an excellent post.

If if recall, somewhere in another forum, Larry was discussing with another shooter what perhaps constituted the greatest measure of skill. Larry's idea was shooting at distance, in the wind in a location where neither shoot had shot before. No sighters. No shooting the target and zeroing to the hole in the target, just your skill vs mother nature. Give the target a mind of it's own, 4x vision, and the ability to run 60 mph....and put them in flat open country where the wind never stops...now you have a challenge. An if that's not hard enough, go hunt the late season after they've been shot at for a full month!