aglifter...

topics here to avoid...45-70 crf vs pushfeed and rebated rims...

do that and you will be fine...p.s. read my tagline

this topic is better suited for the lever action board or marlinowners.com

good luck...

cats, why is it you think that nobody elses opinion matters but yours? And on top of it all it appears that you have never even hunted Buffalo. You would think someone who tells everyone that they don't know squat about a subject would at least have done it themself. GET A LIFE!

Sometime, someone, +/- newcomer on A.R. A.B.G.H.arrives and, as we say in Italy, hurl a rock in pidgeon-loft (45-70 crf vs pushfeed and rebated rims as boom-stick wrote). The hubbub starts, the ????newcomer??? sometime make a reply or two, sometime spill gasoline on fire et voilla (its French Tichie!!! -Addam's FAmily)three pages of topic without any effort.
Meditate on, people, meditate on ......

Whew! My internet was down for three days after a big storm here and joburg and I get back to see a storm in a teacup! Cats, I was just giving my own account of my experience of a 45/70 - I own one for goodness sake and am not dissmissing the rifle, just telling you what I feel after many years of hunting in Africa and north america - it just my opinion, but it is backed up by my personal experiences. I do not think it is fair to question my sportsmanship concerning what a "great shot" is versus a "good shot" there are both and can any member who is a hunter with extensive here say that they have only ever pulled the trigger on the prefect shot? Before you slag me on this, I am asking for a reality check - has every animal a person who has takne this "perfect shot" with dropped dead in its tracks? Technically a perfect shot would in that the right calibre was used appropriate to the body mass of the animal being hunted, the shot stopped the nervous system of the animal instantly etc. We all have the intent of the perfect shot and sometimes things go wrong or physiology doesnt do what it is supposed to do - things go wrong - that is why its called hunting and not shopping.. A second shot on a wounded animal might not be the perfect shot but might be neccessary. Is such a neccessary shot unsportsman-like when yours, or others life might be on the line?

Most of my work here in Africa requires me to carry a rifle for safety purposes - not for hunting so I am speaking from the perspective of someone who is often looking at rifle performance from the hopefully unnecessary need to "stop" an animal. Even when I'm shooting a wildebeest or impala - I'm looking at performance of the calbire, rifle bullet and trying to interpret what would happen in a DG clsoe range scenario. From this perspective - an only in my opinion - the 45/70 does not live up to this standard.

I think you are over-interpreting my use of the term "knocked off tis feet" - I think you know very well what I mean.

concerning the toughness of African game vs. N. American game - outside of the polar bear - there are no real large carnivores in North America - Yes the grizzly etc. are very dangerous but in what is needed to "Knock one down" in an emergency - they are clearly not as tough as many of the African DG - otherwise North America would be full of minimum DG calibres and our discussions would be around these facts - you certainly wouldn't carry the type of protective firearm such as pistols etc that you can in N.A. in Africa - they would not suffice in an emergency.

Concerning Elk as an equivelent of large African plains game, regardless of weight I don not believe from an anatomical point of view they are as tough as African plains game - they have a very different evolutionary background with lighter bpone and muscle structures - they live, for the most part in moderately open to closed environments and are not migratory - If you don't like anatomy - just mass is enough - a bull eland might get up to say 900lbs but they average probably 500 or 600lbs?

A bull eland will average more than twice that weight and can approach 2000lbs which is the size of the biggest buff whiole an elk is about the size of the average wildebeest or gemsbok and smaller than a roan.

It reallly is a shame that individuals have to interpret the questioning of a calibre as a personal attack on the user of the calibre - its not - at least its not what I intended. Someone on this board asked a question and individuals with experience try to use that experience to help that person formulate their own opinion. Discussing the merits and or shortfalls of the guide gun in 45/70 help all of us hunt better and more safely.

Berger, very well articulated.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
cats, why is it you think that nobody elses opinion matters but yours? And on top of it all it appears that you have never even hunted Buffalo. You would think someone who tells everyone that they don't know squat about a subject would at least have done it themself. GET A LIFE!

did I say I never killed a buff or DID I SAY "I've never stuck a buff with a shaft" / Reading comp class in CHIT STIR HALL 101

cats,
have you killed a buff at all?

yep 2

Sorry cats, I should have said Buff with a bow. With that addition I think it is a fair statement. Oh yeah, I also own a 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
yep 2

where and with what?

apology accepted as for your comment about knowing of which i speak because I've never killed a buff with a bow to date. I reply I've never killed one with a 460 WBY either but I'm pretty sure I could kill one with it...that seems like a FAIR statement too
I own a couple 45-70 a Sharps Shilo and a 1895LTD nice guns both though I wouldn't think of using the same loads in Sharps I do in the 1895

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
yep 2

where and with what?

Zimbabwe/ 458 Lott

gosh -sorry about all the typos - i just re-read my last post and had written it in a hurry.

Back to the original question by Aglifter.

Of course a .45/70 can be used to hunt a cape buffalo if one is aware of its limitations.

I guess I take buffalo hunting more seriously than some on this thread. In respect of the animal, the lives of my trackers, PH and my own I want to use a weapon that gives me the best chance to kill quickly and stop a charge and that I can carry all day and use effectively. I get very little satisfaction out of taking an animal that someone else has to join in on to end the chase. Now if someone is happy with not being able to take the chase to the finish please have at it and use your pistols, bows, spears, atlatls or submarginal rifle calibers.

Berger I have heard and read the opinion that African game is tougher to kill pound for pound then North American game. I don't believe it for one second. I have taken large numbers of both and can tell you in my experience a 1600 to 1800 lb moose is just as hard to kill quickly as is a equal sized eland. Although the eland is much more likely to run after the first shot then a moose. The same holds true for a an impala and a whitetail doe or yearling buck. I don't know how much experience you have in hunting North american game but since your from SA you may not have much if any. I mean no disrespect to your opinion I just don't agree with it.

465H&H

465 H&H I grew up in the states before moving here in 1989. I have hunted many species of north american game (but not moose!). I admit that what I am saying is just my opinion, although the bone densities of African plains game is higher than that of N.A. game. I will look at muscle mass and see if this is also the case, but I would suspect it is. I think your experience is the same as mine - pound for pound an African animal shot in the same anatomical place will run further than a N.A. game animal - to me that means tougher. Not having any animals in North America that equate to the big game animals of Africa means we will never know the answer on larger animals.

I'll willing to bet a Pronghorn antelope will match any animal near it's size for toughness pound for pound. And they are commonly killed with 6mm
I'll also cover all bets that for a 300# critter the mtn goat will surpass any African animal for toughness in it's weight class pound for pound and a 257 Wby is considered just fine for them.

Interesting point Cats - goats are an interesting question. With smaller antelope we will probably never know as even the minimal calibres are adequate. What African antelope, would you say, is in the class of a mountain goat?

I don't have much experience with mt. goat as I have only taken two and both dropped rather quickly to double lung shots with a .270. Others have said they are tough and I will bow to those with more experience. I have culled impala in Zim so have much more experience on them. I do not think they are any tougher then deer of the same body weight. What I meant by eland more likely to run is that a moose tends to stand there after a lung hit and wait to die. It usually takes a minute or two for that to happen where eland almost always run off. Deer, elk, sheep caribou etc. all will usually run off when hit in the lungs. Assuming similar hits and the same rifle/cartridge combination, the length of time it takes an animal to go down is dependent upon the size of it's lungs and how long it takes for the lungs to fill wth blood. Moose and eland take about the same time to keel over. Bison are larger then any Cape buffalo that ever walked and some of our polar and brown bear can reach weights nearly their equal. We don't have any animals to match the weights of your hippo, rhino or elephant. IMHO and that of at least two of the PHs I have hunted with is that elephants are rather soft and no where near as difficult to kill as one would expect for an animal of that size. That statement will probably get me crucufied here but I stand behind it. If an elephant was as tough to kill as a cape buffalo, we would need much bigger guns.

465H&H

465H&H

Berger IMHO a Gemsbok is in the league though they may weigh more. I'm told they can be tough animals, though both mine fell rather quickly one with broken shoulders the other with a heart blown all to ribbons (he ran quite a distance considering his heart looked like jelly,he must have been really running to cover thr ground he did).

Interesting string of discussion. I have a 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun (Stainless)with an Ashley Outdoors ghost ring. Fun gun. I planned to use Buffalo Bore Ammo on a bear hunt but by the time I had the little rifle sighted in with those monsters I developed a horrible flinch. I then had to re-sight it for Winchester 180 gr. Hollow Points. They worked fine on a black bear in Saskatchewan but were not overwhelming. Since then I have used my .376 Steyr and my .338 Rem UltraMag for bear with much more devastating results on the bear.

I'm now going to Tanzania with Usangu in September to hunt Buff, Croc. and Plains Game. Am I taking my Guide Gun? No Way. There will be a .375 and a .458 Lott in the gun case.

I'm on board with the others. To use less than what is available to quickly and effectively dispatch the intended game borders on unethical.

OK - let me crucify - I'll tkae the bait - bison are not bigger than cape buffalo nor tougher (1200 - 1800 lbs for bison) - elephants are as tough as any animal that walks the earth today - anyone who tells you otherwise - well -

Shot animals don't die from blood filling the lungs - they die from blood loss - or more accuratly massive and rapid pressure loss due to bleeding along with other physiological shock factors.

Impala are probably the same as whitetails concerning "toughness" but again, when dealing with tiny antelope like that its just hard to tell - in my opinion.

I think a gemsbok or wildebeest is a heck of a lot tougher than an elk based on shooting both but I really don;t know about a moose. We don't really shoot eland with a .270 though......

(I know all the "i've shot them with a .270 will jump in here - but its not recomended)

P.s. Cats - what did you shoot your Gemsbok with or did I miss that in an earlier post? apologies if I did.

Berger!

I just checked Mammals of the WorldMammals of thr World by Walker.

Estimated adult Cape Buffalo weights 600 to 900 kg.
Ameerican Bison weights for all adults 450 to 1,350 kg.

Morris in Mammals gives a weight of 1,600 to 1,800 for a cape buffalo bull and 2,500 for a bison. Other books I have indicate the same trend. I must admit though that I think the weights given by Walker are too heavy for both cape buffalo and for bison. I can't imagine a 3,300 lb bison.

As for how tough an elephant is to kill, well let's just agree to disagree. By the way how many have you taken?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Berger:
P.s. Cats - what did you shoot your Gemsbok with or did I miss that in an earlier post? apologies if I did.

I killed the one with 2 broken shoulder bones with a Bear 3 pc takedown 62# @28" using Easton XX75 2117 and a Wasp Broadhead...complete passthru
The other I heart shot with a Winchester mdl 54 30-06 200 gr Sierra which BTWE did not exit.
I've killed a bunch of bison over the years for meat I've never seen one over 2200#

.

Why don't you fellows open a new thread to discuss the differences between African and North American game? I think Aglifter has given up on this one, as it has ranged absurdly far from the original topic.

George

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

See this link, you decide.

Come on! The best one is 500gr @ 1530. Would anyone be happy with that? Remember that the 458 Win got crucified for a 500gr @ roughly 1900-2000 for bad performance on DG?

Imagine if winchester came out with a new cartridge with the above 45-70 ballistics. Would anyone buy it? NO. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it will cost $180 for a box of 20. Any Takers?

Anyone who says the 45-70 is an ideal DG cartridge needs to have their head examined. It is so far below the minimum it isn't even worth considering as a possibility.

Kind of like taking a knife to a gun fight. IMO a bow would be just as good for DG, if not better. At least it will penetrate!

Did not say I agreed with them. I use a Lott,
just thought some might like to see it.

Bulldog, I dont see where anyone has said it's an ideal DG cartridge??
I took exception to folks who said it wasnt even adequate for large plainsgame. That I've found to be totally untrue. I wish I had taken photo's of the halved eland carcassI shot last Aug. It was a huge bull, but still not much to penatrate to poke a hole through the ribs into the lungs. Berger, I wasnt taking potshots at your shooting if thats what you are refering to. I only mentioned I've seen the same animal run as far, hit MOL the same. Many here take raking shots or rear end shots, I will not, and hence can often use what others think to be an inadequate cartridge.

Actually, the elk originally was an animal of the open plains, and migrated. It was also favorite prey of the plains wolf and plains grizzly. Elk moved to the timber when man moved into the open ground to stay.
I belive the pronghorn has the highest bone density of any animal, the high speeds required the the dense bones to take the pounding.

Actually the elk was found on the plains and in the mountains in the early days. They really were not pushed off the plains as much as shot off the plains. Although those living close to the timbered mountains proabably retreated there from hunting pressure.

465H&H

I grew up in Alaska and to me the ideal DG rifle is a nice and compact lever gun in any caliber from .348 on up for the big bears. To the folks in Eastern US, it might be a .30-30 on up for black bear. The point I’m trying to make is that depending on where you are in need of a DG rifle, the rifle’s requirements will be different from region to region. Even in Africa, the ideal DR rifle is different from region to region. Why would I need an elephant cartridge to hunt leopard of do a cull on a large mob of rowdy baboons? These can potentially be some of the most dangerous hunting situations in there own right.

I also think that the improper use of FMJ bullets has also added to the legend for African game toughness. With the exception of Africa, almost every other place frowns upon their sporting use as they tend to wound (usually more than one animal) more than kill. I would never recommend anybody use a FMJ on a big 1500 Ibs. Kodiak, even from a .458, so why push their use on 1500 Ibs. cape buffalo? As far as bone structure, density and shear muscle mass goes, I would have to put my vote on the Kodiak.

Now, in regards to this rumor of lever guns being unreliable. I think that this started from some old safari stories about a lever gun jamming up at the critical moment. If you take note as to what type of rifle they were using and how they cleared it, you will quickly see that is was caused from improper loading of the then commonly used Winchester model 1895, where the rims were overlapped in the wrong direction. You will also note that this was happing with rimmed bolt guns too! The lever gun design has been around much longer than the bolt and has been subject to 140+ years of refinement. As is the case for any gun, if it is in sound condition, properly maintained and loaded with the proper ammunition, it will be extremely reliable. And let’s also not try and split hairs by comparing an old worn out, loose and sloppy lever gun with a brand spanking new latest and greatest custom bolt gun.

Lastly, powder and bullet design has come a long way in the past 100 years. I find it funny that people still condemn a cartridge as being unreliable or temperamental because they read it in a book or article that was based upon material that was published in the 30’s, which in itself may have been based upon yet older material. What do you think Taylor or Selous would have said if they had access to Triple Shock X-Bullets loaded with modern components!

Now back to the original question, could you use your .45-70 loaded with the latest hotted up ammunition in Africa? Sure you can, but you didn’t say against what? You mentioned its’ use on Cape Buffalo and Hippo, but didn’t say if that was what you were hunting or not. If you’re just worried about having to use it against them incidentally during your hunt for other game, just keep a few of the heavy weight rounds in your pocket and leave a few rounds out of your magazine when you load it up, that way you’ll always have room to load the buffalo protection rounds if need be. If your primary hunt is for Buff, I would consider reloading your own if you are set up to that. With a long barreled gun like yours, you should be able to easily get 1900-2000 fps at safe pressures with a Woodleigh 405 gr. FN of some other similar quality bullet. Practice with the load that you want use until you are good with it and know the gun inside and out from any field hunting position you can think of. Make sure every round you take on your hunt feeds and cycles flawlessly. Know the limitations of your gun and most of all, yourself. When you hunt, get close, then get a bit closer, pick your shot and most importantly be patient! If you do these things, you’ll be light years ahead of other hunters who go out with canons that they can’t shoot! Usually hunts that result in charges are from lazy/poor hunters who try to make up for their lack of precision/skill with horsepower. Poor shot placement is still poor shot placement in the real world and no amount of ultra magnum is going to change that…

I have some 45/70's and I love this caliber! But that is not the reason for my post. IF you do go to Africa and go hunting buff with the 45/70, abd IF he decides to stomp you into jelly for haveing the audacity to shoot him with the 45/70, can I have any other guns you might leave behind. IF you don't have someone else to leave them to as you won't be needing them anymore?