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| One of Us |
Additionally you will often hear stories of poor performance on game with host of various calibers. I mean that's hunting... Different animals can react in strange ways to perfect shots. It sometimes happens in Law Enforcement in shootouts with criminals as well. One man drops instantly to a well place 9mm hit another man absorbs an entire magazine. If a .308 can drop a P/G animal at 150 yards or beyond a 45-70 will do the same with shorter distances. Its just a matter of preference. No one can truely state that any rifle is a perfect D/G or P/G setup. However some of the points made regarding expense of a safari are worth considering. Depending on the hunt itself you might be required to take a longer shot than expected. Should that be the case you might wish for a flatter shooting caliber at that time. Hunting is Hunting and there is never a garantee as how things will/can turn out. | |||
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I wish we could have someone film his hunt with the 45-70 and then we could judge him on shot placement.It sure would be fun to watch! *We Band of .338 ers*.NRA Member | |||
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Berger, I have no doubts about your gnu, but saw the same thing happen with a .338 when only one lung was hit. A 45/70 not adequate for large plains game? Give me a break! Horn 350 grn bullets at 2000 fps, punched right through lungshot kudu and gemsbok, not 1 but several, the same bullet broke the shoulder of a big eland and went on in to drop it with-in 40 yds, another eland took one through the lungs and died just as quick. My Namibian pal after watching how it killed got one himself and loves it, it's what he grabs for following up wounded leopard, being a lefty, it's a big advantage over his right handed bolt gun. An original win 95 in .405 worked the same as the 45/70 and added alot of memories to the hunt. As I've said before, I've used a 375 H&H on down to 30-06, and have found no differance in how far an animal has gone when the shot is put where it should be. I'ts easy to see from the posts here I've shot far more large plains game then most who have written in this thread with a 45/70 - .405. They can do the job very well if you take the shots you should, and put it where you should. | |||
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Ididnt hunted in africa but i killed a lot of water buffalos with my marlin guide gun 4570 ,i saw photos of Danie van Graan with a 4570 and cape buffalo so i believe it can do the work .Juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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I think some reading on big bore cartridges since 1898 and their ballistics, energy and KOVs levels would a good idea. If you friends in Zambia hunt a bit, they undoubtably will have a decent rifle to borrow if you wish to. If you do get to hunt Zambia in March, good luck and I hope it is a successful hunt. | |||
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forget the 45-70. what i want to see now is that arrow that busted the cape buff's shoulder. DRSS | |||
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how bout that arrow?....anybody?..... DRSS | |||
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 What I want to see is the 810 grain arrow! A 577NE only shoots a 750 gr bullet!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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**your lack of archery knowledge is apparent. An arrows weight for hunting purposes is determined by the total launched shaft....nock,inserts,broadhead,fletchings and in this case internal shaft liner. It is now OK to pull your foot from your mouth  also wanted to add you should go back and reread my post as to the buff's shoulder...nothing was mentioned about shoulder bones but rather shoulder muscle....is it possible to get both feet out of your mouth now? | |||
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CATS,you do like a  contest, don't you? I wasn't aware of the arrow thing,and admit to my ignorance of modern archery equipment, and because of that fact, I asked to see the 810 gr arrow! No foot in mouth there! Secondly I was not the one who said anything about the shoulder bones of a Cape Buffalo, that was DEGOINS, as was quoted above! So my fine feathered friend, my feet a firmly planted on the ground. The .22LR is lethal if it reaches the vitals of any animal on Earth, and so is the 45-70, or an arrow. The problem is getting either to do that,and the animal to die, before he stomps hell out of you. You, and I both know an arrow kills in an intirely different method than a bullet, and is not a qualifying example to justify a 45-70 as a DGR. Either will kill a Cape Buffalo if everything is perfect, but neither it, nor the bow, nor the 22 LR are well suited for hunting cape buffalo, and certainly couldn't be considered as a good choice as a stopper, if things go bad. The chances of it going bad, are far more likely if one uses weapons that are the absolutely minimum, for even killing him under perfect conditions! There's lots of room in several mouths ,for feet in this string! You just placed the wrong feet, in the wrong mouth, that's all!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I too would be interested in seeing the 45/70 load used. I agree that by the time you get up to some serious heavy loads, the recoil is downright objectionable at least in my Ruger #1. Having said that, however, I see nothing wrong with the ballistics of a 45/70 used against Leopard or against large antelope at under 100 yards, say. While Berger presents an excellent account of his experience, I tend to agree that a bad shot is a bad shot, and that animal is not going to "fall down" dead, or get "knocked off it's feet" unless it is hit right! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Why is the modern bow and arrow not suited to kill cape buffalo? Please explain. GTR | |||
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sure the modern bow is suitable to kill buff what MacD37 is trying to do is backpeddle his ass out of the pit he pulled it into by calling it a non stopper. No one other than him called the bow and arrow a stopper nor hinted at it even remotely. What he and some of his like minded posters would have everyone believe is that every buffalo in Africa opens it's eyes in the morning and goes about looking to stomp anything in it's path to mush. They also read way too much about buff charges, then sadly believe everything they ingested. Do buffalo charge at times??? Surely they do and I make no effort to state whaT THE PER CENTAGE IS OF THOSE THAT DO VS THOSE THAT DON'T THOUGH COMMON SENSE WOULD DICTATE THOSE THAT DON'T WIN HANDS DOWN (sorry hit caps). If I ever stick a buff with an arrow ( I hope to do it this August) I sure hope he decides to run the other way. But should he decide to come towards us at least give me the credit for being smart enough to allow the PH to have a clear shot. | |||
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GTR, Read Mac37's post. It says all that needs to be said on the topic. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I don't think anyone is doubting that a 45-70 can do fine on antelopes but when it comes to DG it really is an inferior cartridge. Especially when there are so many rounds that are proven in the field. | |||
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cats, i reread your post about the arrow penetrating a buff's shoulder muscle and not the bone, my mistake.....what does penetrating his shoulder muscle without breaking the bone accomplish? DRSS | |||
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have you ever looked at a buff's skeleton? the muscle can be pierced and the bone easily bypassed. I'd guess not 1 in 10 hunters actually knows where the buff's shoulder blade lies when he is 100% broadside. also an archer knows to waittill the leg is forward (as if stepping) | |||
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[QUOTE CATS,you do like a contest, don't you? No I do not ...I just don't take shit when I know I am correct! I call a spade a spade Straight forward read it if you wish, skip it if you wish, means little to me what "vision " of me you hold, cyberspace allows me to walk away whenever I choose. Cats | |||
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Actually there were several posts about the 45/70 not being suitable for large plains game. One reason for the disagreement might be the differant way people hunt. I expect Alf, like myself, was taught to wait for the "proper" shot, meaning a high percentage broadside ect shot. If quartering away or ass shots are taken, the 45/70 wouldnt be all that effective, I agree. I wouldnt have had any hide left on my backside if I ever came home with an animal shot in the ass, so the thought never crosses my mind. It's a case of each to their own there. | |||
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raking shots on unwounded game be it rabbit or elephant are the blackest smudge to a hunters image I can envision.Shooting any game animal at the root of the tail(1st shot) then claiming what a grand hunt he gave you makes a real ethical hunter want to vomit! Many of the pro 45-70 DG posters (of which to a point I am as well) read Paco Kelly's articles on sixgunner.com claiming with the correct cast bullet and powder combo a TRex is considered small game...I take 50% of a gun writers words as plain BS and the other 50% to be questioned as hype. | |||
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cats, as a matter of fact i've seen the skeletons of 2 cape buffalo. i killed one of them and my son killed the other. but we didnt bypass their shoulder bones. i've heard it makes it harder for them to run off and get into mischeif if you break thier shoulder bones so that's what we did. where in africa will you be hunting in august? DRSS | |||
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Namibia, RSA and trying to get something lined up in tanz. but trophy archery fees there are insane | |||
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The proper first shot is any shot that kills the quarry quickly. Personally I prefer front on shots, but any shot which quickly and cleanly kills an animal is a proper shot. Know your rifle and you will know what angles make for proper shots and which don't. Some say the archery trophy fees are higher than rifle fees to account for the larger percentage of lost buff. I'm not sure I buy this though since you pay for a buff if you hit it whether you're using a rifle or bow. I think it is an effort to make up trophy fee revenue lost due to the greater difficulty of stalking close enough and yet be in a position to be able to draw a bow. More difficulty equals more blown stalks equals more time per quarry equals less successful shots per safari equals less trophy fee revenue per average safari day. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I agree. | |||
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I don't I'm paying a daily fee with a min. of days set before the hunt to make for every hunting opportunity. If I go home without a buffalo that is part of the deal. the pressure is on a good PH to get me into 25 yds of a buff at a good shot angle. The operator knows an archer's needs BEFORE he books the safari. | |||
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Nitro x what is your point....looking to get banned again? I do think you are the sole owner of that title here on Ar....aren't you  | |||
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Cats, I bet your daily fee quote is the same as a rifle hunter's. The Gov't makes of the revenue on trophy fees, as I understand it, and the operator makes some too. Since you will shoot fewer game animals with a bow than a rifle you will be providing both with less revenue per hunting day, on average. The higher trophy fees are their attempt to bring the revenue per hunting day back up to where it would be for the average rifle hunter. Does saying it this way make it clearer? I would love some input from our Tanzania members. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Where in my post, quoted above, do you think I'm back peddeling? Cats nobody, at least not me, has said the 45-70 is not to be used in Africa! I use it all the time on game it is suited for, and it would be even usable on Leopard, and Lion over bait,if legal, with quality bullets, and proper loads. The only problem I have with the 45-70 is when used on Buffalo, and as some insane folks say ELEPHANT. Sure it will kill them "IF" everything is perfect! The problem is when useing a cartridge like the 45-70, things are likely to get out of hand, and a 45-70 is not up to the task when that happens, that's all! You will not find a post of mine where I said that buffalo charge all the time! In over 20 yrs of hunting Buffalo, I have had exactly one charge from a Cape Buffalo, and the reason I haven't had more charges is, like most Buffalo hunters, I use the proper rifles to hunt them, and get in close,and place the bullets where they belong. Sometimes they shots are a little off, but with the rifles I use, the wind is taken out of thier sails somewhat. You will not do that with an off center shot with a 45-70, or certainly not an arrow. SCI negociated for four years, before the game people would allow buffalo hunting with a bow in Zambia, and then only with a special permit, and only with certain PHs. The 45-70 is still not legal for buffalo! I'm sure some hasve used it for buffalo, but it isn't legal, and there is a reason for that. [QUOTE CATS,you do like a contest, don't you? [/QUOTE You seem to confront anyone who disagrees with you on anything, with crap like the quote below!
The key word here is "KNOW", I think it should be replaced with the word "THINK"! The problem is, you are not correct 90% of the time where the hunting of Cape Buffalo, or what is needed to hunt them properly is concerned. As far as you not takeing any "SHIT" as you so adultly put it! No body is giveing you any crap! I simply was not aware of an 810 gr arrow, and ask to see one! When I hunted with a bow, we were still useing recourve bows, and Port Orford ceder shafts, with Bear razor heads! I did not say anything about the shoulder bone, of a cape buffalo, as you assumed I did! So you were wrong there as well! Cats, I don't know what your problem is, but you came on this web-site with a chip on your shoulder, and the first person that disagreed with you, got your runny mouth! It seems you can't get along with anyone! Why do you suppose that is? Could it be your ego is so big you can't stand to be disagreed with or be proven wrong about anything, especially with your preconcieved notions about things you haven't done, and probably never will. I tried to be as nice as I could when discussing this with you, but it seems you will not have it that way. SON, IMO you are a CHILD, with a smart mouth, and no brains, but then that is simply my OPINION. Hence forth, please skip over my posts, as I normally do your's already, and will completely disregard from now on! YOU HAVE A NICE DAY, YOU HEAR!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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MacD37, perfectly said. DRSS | |||
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my point exactly I am happy to pay the same daily fee as a gun hunter, I am also not going to take marginal shots just to say I hit a buffalo. Nor do I cry about not getting one. that is why afterall I choose the bow 'cause of the challenge to begin with. | |||
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| Moderator |
Will you even be permitted to temporarily import a rifle without any formal safari contract to justify it? Most southern African are restrictive in this regard. You would not want to be turned back at the airport, or worse, spend time in a Zambian jail. George  | |||
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deleted by me as I do not wish to get into a name calling match.....there was enough of that stuff recently. suffice to say I'm tired of all the "stunt hunt" accusations | |||
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Mac: Just ignore the Joey Butafouco crowd, they are all in it together. Notice how the originator of the post is long gone and only the usual suspects remain to pursue this insane thread? We all know it can be done, arrow, 22, 45/70, etc., but unless you come out and admit the 45/70 is the equal of all the other calibers that were really designed for DG, they'll just keep harping. I've taken a new tactic to all of this. Unless the poster is known to me either by longevity here, personally or through mutual acquaintance, unless they show pictures, with names, datesm, etc., it goes into the shit can. It's amazing how many of these wannabes go away when you ask for proof. And if they remain and just keep dodging, well, then we know they are trolls and we ignore them anyway. Take care, jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I just do not see the argument "A bow and arrow will not help you in a charge". Are they implying someone should not hunt a buff unless they are capable of stopping a charge? How many clients are really capable of stopping a charge? Please PH's answer. Because a client has a "approved" rifle does that mean they will stop a charge? I would guess the majority are not prepared mentally or physically to stop a charge. GTR | |||
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Cats, So then you agree that the higher trophy fees for bow hunters are a reasonble way for the Gov't and the operators to ensure that they are not loosing revenue through hosting bow hunters? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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No point, just find the quotations interesting.  It will be good to hear your comments and experiences on bowhunting buffalo after you take your first bow hunted cape buffalo. I wonder if your views will be the same or not. | |||
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GTR, I'm sure some clients aren't prepared to stop a buffalo charge. I imagine most members here, at a minimum, try to be prepared for it both mentally and physically. But members here are a more avid group, I suspect, than the average safari goer, that is why they are here. There are a bunch of members here who have stopped charges by buffalo or elephants. Don't recall all the names right now. Seems most members are of the opinion that relying on your PH, 100%, to stop a charge is just foolish. He is a mear mortal, no matter his experience. I'm in the group that has this opinion. One thing is absolutely clear though is that if you hunt with a bow you are relying 100% on you PH to stop a charge. The same is true if an inadequate rifle is your choice of weapon. If you want to hunt cape buffalo with a bow, thats your choice, have at it! Please write up a hunt report when you return. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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