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This year, Pedersoli will produce a new 1886 replica. http://www.davide-pedersoli.co...egoriaId=304&lang=de I´m waiting for a .348WCF version.  Martin | ||
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That is good news for the introduction of the '86/71 for they are fine lever rifles in all respects. I would hope that these rifles do not have the nasty tang safety on them as the current Winchester/Miroku versions do. I recently bought a Browning 1886-45/70 rifle which does not have the tang safety and had for sometime the Browning 71 which I should never have let go. Noticed mentioning of plug for 3 shot capacity, is that a requirement in your location?? | |||
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I saw one at the SHot SHow. Look a the one from Chiappa, I like it better, very close to the original and the parts will interchange. US threads and all. But just for disclosure I am working with them to really try to get it so it will interchange and look correct. They are making a Premier assition htat we are doing all the US finishes on. There will be one that we finished at the Bass Pro show in Dallas Texas March 19-21 at the North Texas SCI chapter show on our table. See you there. Doug I tend to use more than enough gun. | |||
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What calibers are they chambered in? | |||
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They are saying 45-70 and 444 Marlin but all I have seen is it in 45-70 I tend to use more than enough gun. | |||
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444 Marlin? Where does that round fit into the history of the 1886 Winchester? Oh Well, I guess I shouldn’t be too critically, at least they started making them. | |||
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Surely there is a market for the .50/110? | |||
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Butch and I arrived at their Reno booth about the same time. So, I asked him what he thought. He was a bit critical, but opined that the little issues were "fixable. Looks like he has taken on that project. Good on You Butch!! Rich | |||
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I don´t know why....The Pedersoli is made in Italy, but I don´t know about any regulations with the magazine capacity of repearting arms. In Germany it´s not importend. Pedersoli are all very well made. The imported is the "price". I bought a Pedersoli Sharps befor a few years. I love to shoot it. It´s a accurate rifle. OK, the finish is not the same, as by the Shiloh rifles, but here in Germany a standard Shiloh without any special sights is priced about nearly 3000.-€. A Pedersoli you get with diopter between 1500.- and 2000.-€. Martin | |||
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Yesterday, I saw the price of the Pedersoli made 1886, nearly 1450.-€. This is OK, Browning or Winchester made, mostly costs over 2000.-€. Martin | |||
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Well that's great news! So the quality is the same as the Winchester version, but what about the materials and strength? Can they simply be re-chambered for the 45-90? If they can take that cartridge at the pressures the Winchester can, then we have a great combination. As much of a fan of history and the 50-110, 450 Alaskan and 50 Alaskan, I would rather go with the lengthened 45-70 case run at near max pressure (seing the larger case diameters of the other chamberings would require less pressure) and utilize the excellent bullets the .458 offers while still being a very easy modification any gunsmith can do. Brass is easily attainable and you are nearing the same energy developed as the others. Although...a 50-110 does sound like the tool of choice for some big and nasties! Can they be had in take-down version someday? -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Extremist... Just an observation. If you expand the 348 Win to 458 you will eliminate the shoulder and have a tapered case to a neck that is 2.25" or shorten it. Call it the 458 Extreme. A fatter, longer 45-70. 
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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any chance for a 450 Marlin? | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick: Extremist... Just an observation. If you expand the 348 Win to 458 you will eliminate the shoulder and have a tapered case to a neck that is 2.25" or shorten it. Call it the 458 Extreme. A fatter, longer 45-70. Why in the world would you not just go 450 alaskan instead of a 450 extreme??  | |||
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I think the 45-348 would be the best feeding. The other would be the ease of forming brass not to mention the fun of being different. But a 45-90 might be another and best option but at the same OAL the 458 Extreme will have more capacity. The 1886 model 71 feeds a 2.75" OAL case well and 2.80" you start to get feeding problems. The 2.25" case of the 458 Extreme will maximize the Useable capacity with 45-70 bullets and have about the same capacity as the 450 Alaskan since it is a shorter case 2.15" ish to work in the 1895 Marlin. So the 450 AK 450 Extreme are quite similar in capacity but the Alaskan is optimized for the Marlin. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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That would be something! Would we have to have a crescent steel butt plate, or any chance common sense might prevail and be offered in a shootable gun ie. shotgun butt? Edit: Just saw the pics, looks good. Pistol grip too. The rubber pad is a little out of place, but at least not curved steel. | |||
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Sorry, can't see the need for a short round in the 86 platform especially when the 450 alaskan is a proven design and the longer case will yeild lower pressure--- like attempting to make a 458WM into a 458 Lott. IMO, just asking for problems. | |||
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The 458 Alaskan is 2.145" the 458 Extreme idea is 2.25" If crimped at the canalure with 45-70 bullets they will have similar capacities. If using a model 71 designed for the 348 Win a 458-348 unimproved should work great. I don't see your point. 
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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This reproduction is chambered in 45-70 The 45-90 has 90 grains capacity The 45-70 has 80 grains capacity The 450 Alaskan has 88 grains capacity A 2.3" version of the 45-90 should have a tad over 87 grains AND still shoot 45-70 ammo. The 1886 model 71 shoots the 348 Win with the OAL of 2.75" A 45-90 with 45-70 bullets will have an OAL of 2.85" and that is too long to function without mods. A 2.3" 47-90 case should cycle reliably with the same OAL crimped to the canalure of 45-70 bullets as the 348 Win. Maybe THAT is the holy grail and giving the same performance as the 450 Alaskan and 45-90 since the same OAL will be forced upon the 45-90 in a 71. Maybe it should be named the 45-80 in between the 45-90 and 45-70. Anyone else see the logic or reason in this?  The other cart to consider revising is the 50-110. 500 S&W bullets are more plentiful and with .5" from tip to canalure necking up the 348 Win to .500" and keeping the 2.25" case length will give you the same 2.75" OAL. A 500-348 would be aaaaawesome. The 50 Alaskan is 2.1" long so add another .150 and you get a potent package for the 1886. There is the 510 Kodiak Express that is about 2.3" long with a slight shoulder. maybe a 500 Kodiak is better...Easier to get a hold of 348 Win brass and neck up to .500" Maybe THAT is the holy grail of the 1/2" levergun 1886??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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50-110, 50 alaskan and 510 kodiak express again are the time proven 50 cal wildcats --- you must be one of those guys that has to try something different all the time? Not a criticism, but I don't try to reinvent the wheel, generally much more costly and if it worked the best it would be the standard. The wheel works fine as is. Also, my guess is that the .510 bullets are built more solidly than the .500 handgun bullets. At least, I have zero complaints from the 535 grain woodleigh's in my 50 alaskan. | |||
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510 Kodiak Express, 50 and 450 Alaskan all were once wildcats or are wildcats. The 510 is pretty new. All did try to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Most carts less than 75 years old were once wildcats. Wildcats are not for everyone. Just trying to make that wheel more round All of those were designed with the OAL of the Marlin in mind not the 1886 model 71. My ideas are platform specific like the 475 Turnbull. Turnbull also designed the shorter 470 turnbull for the Marlin. As to Functional impact velocities that would all depend on the specific bullet used. I hear good report on the 500 grain Hornady .500 bullet at 2,000 fps and the 400 grain .500" Barnes Buster should be great. Cast bullets can be made hard enough for 2,200 fps. There are also solids that will not have any issue. When the 50 Ak was made the designer made his own bullets from shortened 50 bmg bullets. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boom Stick I think that taking the longer 348 case and going up to .500 caliber is a fantastic idea, for the M71s it will work great I think, getting velocity up and holding pressures down with the longer case, as opposed to the 50 B&M Alaskan (50 AK squeezed to .500). As you well know we have been doing that for some time, and have .500 caliber rifles in every action available, with tremendous success. Of course the 50 B&M Alaskan since it is shorter will fit, function and feed in the Marlin 1895 as well as the M71s. You can see the 50 B&M Alaskan in this .500 caliber cartridge lineup, Along with some of the rifles.     I have both the standard 50 AK (.510) and of course several 50 B&M AK versions at .500. There are many great bullets in .500 that are PERFECT for a lever gun, and most definitely will hold together at the velocities the lever can offer. I built the 50 B&M AK around the 500 gr Hornady. Having tested it extensively from 1200-2100 fps in the bolt version the 50 B&M, this is a fantastic bullet and is a tremendous hammer on big game, might be just about the perfect big bear bullet in these lever guns. The 50 B&M AK with it's 2.1 inch case is capable of running that Hornady 500 at 2000 fps, although it is much more manageable and easy to handle at 1900 or so. Several more bullets work well in this case such as the 400 Sierra at 2100 fps. Then of course I have been fortunate to be involved with coming up with several good designs for various HPs and solids made for these rifles.   Recently posted up on our Terminal Performance thread in Big Bores I did some 50 B&M AK tests as follows;      I think your idea for using the 348 case and it's extra length has a great deal of merit for the M71s, with the extra length not only adding velocity, but helping hold pressures in check for the lever guns. I will take a serious look at it if you don't mind? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael... Since you already have the 500 B&M dies and reamer it makes a lot of sense. The 500 Alaskan or 500 Kodiak or whatever it is called is a good idea IMHO and would be similar to the 475 Turnbull but your favorite 500 bullets. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boom Stick, I am with you 100%. Yes, I think it is a great idea, but one question that still sticks in my mind is the bolt thrust vs case head. If you do the math, and I promise I will when I get a moment, the additional bolt thrust generated from the larger 348 case vs the 45-90 (45-70 is the same), substantially higher pressure can be used in the 45-90 case and maintain the same bolt thrust. If case cap is near the same, then the 45-90 takes the cake, and can be shot with 45-70 or .457WWG ammo as well. I know the Winchester 1886 can be had in 45-90, but they are hard to come by, and not in take-down or pistol grip, so I would just convert the 1886 to 45-90, unless this rifle turns out to be just as good and just as strong, though, it will likely be a moot point. Where the really interesting point comes in is with those Tungsten bullets I've made and am waiting to test. They need a longer case to utilize their short length (maximize case cap) in the 45-90 1886. 450 Alaskan is too short, and isn't quite as long as it could be for the Marlin, when you look at hanging only one caliber out or less. So I think this might be a great niche to fill... Michael458, Please let me know what you find with that convertion, but if I might make a suggestion...GS, GS, GS! I know man, you like JD, and he is a great guy, but the drive bands on the GS bullet really reduce pressure and/or gain velocity. I'm sure you've read my posts about it before, but I cannot help but mention it again here where it's most relivent. I have seen some HUGE performance increases with the GS bullet in the lower operating pressure guns such as the 45-70 and 45-90, with personally getting 2200fps with the 400FN in my standard 45-70 Marlin, while being well under 40K! You just have to try them...and they are custom too! Thanks for humoring me Mike, and I cannot wait until the day we can do some shooting together, if our SA wives will allow it.  -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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P.S. I am soooo envious of your lever collection...  -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Thanks Extremist458 Yes the 45-90 has been made on the 1886 but if you want to use 45-70 bullets it makes more sense to shorten the 45-90 case to 2.3" to use 457 WW Mag and 45-70 ammo as well as the 2.3" case to maximize the 2.75" 1886 mod 71 OAL functionality. With a 2.3" case you can crimp your critter criptonite 620 grain bullets and have a 2.75" oal that will function reliably. The 2.3" 45-90 case might make the most sense. What do you think the name should be? 45-80? Yes, please crank out those bolt thrust numbers if you please for the 458 on the 348 Win case as well as the 2.3" 45-90 case. 
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Yes, 45-80 or 45-86!? Researching... looks like the inside case diameter for the 348 and Alaskan's is apx .500 Easy one, but what is the ID of the 45-70. Happen to have a case drawing? Bolt thrust is purely a factor of psi vs surface area (inside case). So it's hard to come exactally close, but I still favor the 45-86 because of compatability...Great Idea Boomy! -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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interestingly enough nearly almost exactally 10% difference in bolt thrust. Running the math shows the 348 at 50,000 psi (supposed max) generates 30,867.347 pounds of thrust, where as the 45-90 would only push 25,002.551 pounds...to run that up (even though I know the max should be 50K) you would have to go over 60K psi to get the same 30,000 pounds of thrust...actually 61,600psi, but who's counting. If we keep the pressure at 50K for the 45-90 or 45-86, then the 348 must be kept under just a bit over 40K psi. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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I'll look. If someone has a case drawing that will help.  As you see the 45-70-500 (45 was the caliber 70 was the propellant charge and 500 was the weight of the bullet) was loaded out long and could use up the 1886 max oal or single shot same as the 45-90 but people today use bullets with a .45" crimp to canalure from most manufacturers. With loads up to 42K PSI (What I hear is safe but 40K PSI better) in 500 or 458 in the stronger 71 I think both would be great. Thanks for the feedback. I am curious to see how fast your 620 grain bullets would fly @ 42K PSI. What does your software say? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Not sure on that one, as I have no software...just old school mathmatics. I'm calling a friend with quickload... -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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45-90 WCF, 50k, 2.75", 620 grains, 26"bbl: N550 VV 67 grains(C) 1874fps @ 4,833 lb/ft. W748 60.5 grains 1836fps 4640KE. -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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The 510 Kodiak Express boasts 5,000 FPE so this is remarkable when you think about it at the minimal cost of conversion. A 2.25" case with the .500" bullet on the 348 Win case or 50-90, 50-110 parent case available from Starline would be quite something in terms of power.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Extremist... It would be good to know the projected velocities of the 500 Tungsten 458 bullet as well as the 300 and 400 grain bullets made of lead or jacketed in the 45-80/86 Did you get a hold of your "Friend"? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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So; apparently there is not much interest in the old 50/110 as chambered by Winchester back in the day. Is it the availability of brass? or lack of newness? | |||
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Well there are a great deal of .500" bullets out there and in a lever action with the constraints of OAL and wanting reliable cycling and crimping on the canalure of modern production bullets a 2.25" case makes the most sense in an 1886 or 71. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I looked it up in Barnes. 50/110 Winchester used 0.512 bullets in a 2.4 inch case. The 50/90 sharps shows .509 bullets in a 2.5 inch case. Is that difference important 512 vs 510? I wonder what shiloh uses for their black powder 50/90. Would an 1886 with .510 make sense if a new/modern smokeless gun was to be built? Assuming the old guns would only be fired with properly sized lead bullets. And, a modern gun would use a jacket bullets and smokeless powder. The 50/90 sharps brass is available. No perfect solution for a 50 cal 1886 then. Either very expensive odd ball 50/110Win, or non authentic shortened OAL 50/90 sharps or totally new ctg with zero historical precedence. I agree, those 3 Marlins look killer. I wonder what the future holds for Marlin levers under Remington managment and manufacturing. Gimmicks and cosmetic options or innovation? | |||
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The ideas were to maximize and modernize. If one were to go old school you would use an old gun and old school bullets and loads. If you want max power in the modern lever actions these ideas are cool. They did not use jacketed bullets back them or even smokeless powders in most. The old school already exists and this is using both modern and old together. The 45-70 has plenty of nostalgia and in the 2.3" case using 45-90 cases you can use both 45-50 ammo and the larger in the same gun. No compromise. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Brass readily available from starline and modern 50-110 loads will exceed 50 alaskan loads and have over 5000 lbs of muzzle energy. No flies on a 'modern loaded' 50-110. I just can't see this messing about with handgun bullets of .500 when you have very good ones in .510. But then, I'm a traditionalist and not into 'experimental guns, with experimental ammunition' as was said in Quigley downunder. | |||
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What are the bullets: 510 or 512 ? If the 50/110 exceeds the 50 Alaskan why not go bigger and stay with tradition? Bullet selection? The old original Win 86 in 50/110 cost too much for me. Pedersoli is offering a replica. A 50/110 would be a replica. One I could afford to buy just for fun and nostalgia. Browning/Wincheater is also offering an 86. I bet a limited edition 50/110 would sell well enough. I might not buy it, but I would sure take a long hard look. Something else makes me sick is all the old western style guns offered in 45LC and not in 44/40. A lack of good taste, IMHO. Don't get me started on all the 45/120 that never were. If we change subject to Marlin, I would eagerly consider a 50 Alaskan if ammo were available. Doubtful now they are to be fully assimilated by Remington. | |||
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50-110 is a .510 diameter. On a modern 86 or 71 the 50-110 give the most power. The 'rub' comes in that the case is fine for a winchester however its too long for a marlin lever action without massive reworking and questions about durability in the area under the chamber and over the mag tube attachment, along with the size of the barrel threads. The other reason the a very few high performance 50-110 loadings is the fact that someone my drop one into a vintage winchester (black powder frame) and then a big KABOOM! The 50 alaskan is flexible in that it works in both actions, is generally loaded full power and again cases readily available via starline. I shoot 500 grain cast, 300 grain barnes and 450 grain barnes originals and then 535 grain woodleigh from my 50 alaskan. The marlin makes a nice conversion as does a new winchester    | |||
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