On a lever-action which is set up for still-hunting through the woods, which sight system (excluding scopes) do you prefer for the probable jump shots?

While an aperture is more accurate for target shooting, is it as fast as the semi-buckhorn sights for the quick close range shot?

I use a Marbles tang sight with the smaller target arpeture for longer shots and and just flip it down and flip up the blade (Marlin 1895SS) while i'm walking in and out of the woods or if my position dont allow for a long shot. I keep the peep sighted in three or four inches high at 100 yards. The blade on my rifle holds good out to about 60 or 80 yards set in the bottom notch. That's about as far as I like to shoot at anything moving anyway. My peep covers me out to 150 yards or so. I can shots around 100 yards by compensating 4 inches high with the blade or 4 inches low with the peep. Just takes a little practice.

Ashley, (XO,XS, whatever they are called now), rear peep, and a Williams Firesite front.

Don't get much faster than that combo.

Like Al says ghost ring rear and a round fiber optic front may be fastest and sufficient for close work. I have never been able to do good work with a bead front sight though. If you ever need to make a longer shot - or spend much time on the range - a smaller aperture and a flat topped post is better if you have enough light to use the setup comfortably.

Large aperture and thick post, or a red dot sight. I think the red dot is quicker but that's just an opinion.

Do you think the receiver ghost is better than the "one ragged hole" installed on the factory sight system?

http://www.oneraggedhole.com/Winchester_One_Hole_Sight.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thunderstick:
Do you think the receiver ghost is better than the "one ragged hole" installed on the factory sight system?

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I've never seen that sight in person, but personally I'd think the ghost rear is way faster as it's closer to your eye, you pull the gun up and wham, everything is right there, no thinking about lining anything up, just put that lil red dot on hair and squeeze the trigger.


The XS sights are hell bent for strong too. They make a white dot front sight now too, that's pretty rugged. I have a couple of them, but haven't put them on anything yet.

quote:

I think the red dot is quicker but that's just an opinion.

I agree w/DD...red dot is quickest.

Don't dangerous game rifles set up for stopping a charge use the barrel sighting systems?

quote:

Do you think the receiver ghost is better than the "one ragged hole" installed on the factory sight system?

I haven't used forward-mounted aperture but it doesn't make sense optically and appears to combine the disadvantages of both aperture and open rear sights. When the aperture is close to your eye you automatically look through the center of it leaving your brain free to concentrate on the front sight. Out on the barrel you have to deliberately look through it and then focus on the front. The primary disadvantage of the aperture sight is that you can "run out of light", the smaller the aperture the sooner it happens. I wonder if the forward-mounted apertures suffer from the same problem? Finally, a receiver sight (and a tang sight even more) lengthens your sight radius. Putting the aperture out on the barrel gives you no such advantage. Might be interesting to have a couple good shots with a PACT timer and some Pepper Poppers test the different systems...

red dot...red rum

may i suggest aim-point...there have been a couple of threads on this, do a search

Both my Marlins (.450 GG and 44 Mag 1894) wear XS Ghost Rings with medium sized aperture and they're wonderful. I like the heavy square-topped post with white line on it for a front sight too. Both are favorite rifles for the hiking in the outdoors here in lion country - and yes I've run into an aggressive lion and thanks to that little 1894 I'm here to tell about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Thunderstick:
Don't dangerous game rifles set up for stopping a charge use the barrel sighting systems?

I can't speak for the African folks and I have never been there...yet, but I was between a blackie, and where she wanted to go, at the wrong time. I don't even remember seeing or looking for the sights, just thinking don't short stroke, don't short stroke.

Aperture sights belong on the receiver, not the barrel. They needn't be ghost ring size although that will certainly work. Apertures the size of a #2 lead will work fast enough and have enough precision for the "rare" shot you can take from a rest. Williams makes 'em, so do others. I kinda like the ghost ring concept but it isn't the end all to aperture sights.

The things I like about the red dot are many. Using the Millett SP-1, which has a 3MOA dot, no magnification and weighs 4-5 ounces...no parallax, and the battery life is quite long...shooting MOA groups if I take the time and have a rest, plus being able to use it effectively in twilight or even dark conditions with BOTH eyes open. I assure you that with both eyes open at night, if you can see nothing more than a silhouette you can smoke it, regardless of range. Far superior to a laser sight IMO...there is no red line leading back to source. Did I mention it can be mounted with one ring?

Aimpoint makes some terrific sights, I just never could justify the money for the application, and I would not want one with magnification. Not their purpose IMO.

Dangerous Game??? I dunno.

Still hunting through the woods, what's preferable? I think a red dot is quicker than anything.

I don't doubt that a red dot is very quick, but I won't use one on a traditional lever. I would sooner put a low power scope on than a red dot thingy (those are just my tastes).

I still wonder why open sights are primarily used on dangerous game rifles that are used for high pressure snap shooting, if they are slower than an aperture sight.

I have not experimented, but I wonder if the semi-buckhorn could not be used as half-ghost sighting system -- rather than dropping down into the notch and finding the front blade, you would use the half circle and the front blade.

At the risk of great flames, let me suggest that for close range fast shots, it is not necessary to have a rear sight of any sort at all.

That is, shooting a rifle as one would shoot a shotgun works just fine up to 50-65 yards or so. Of course, it helps if the rifle is stocked to really fit the shooter.........and a lot of practice firing from the hind legs doesn't hurt any either. But that's true with ANY sight system.

The front sight should be something large that your eyes find easy to pick up in the cover you normally hunt.

quote:

I still wonder why open sights are primarily used on dangerous game rifles that are used for high pressure snap shooting, if they are slower than an aperture sight.

Alberta Canuck covered nicely I think, but that's an opinion not based on African hunting. Big difference between facing a charge and jump shooting a fleeing head of big game. Opens will work on that, but so will apertures, and I think probably better. Don't know if you've used them much but open leaf sights are at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder in my book.

DD and Alberta C. have it right.

I used to hunt with an 870 with a 20" barrel and a #8 allen head screw in for a front bead chasing up to 250 kilo hogs in Turkey. I used Brenneke slugs and shot most under 30 yds...put the screw head on the pig's shoulder and you had a dead pig...works the same for a rifle....BUT you gotta keep your cheek on the stock...no lifting your head!! Practice shooting ballons on a windy day blowing across your back stop or a Red Ryder shooting carpenter bees on the wing. I have tried it with a red dot and a holo sight and the "big bead" still works better at short range. You don't need no stinkin rear sight.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
At the risk of great flames, let me suggest that for close range fast shots, it is not necessary to have a rear sight of any sort at all.

That is, shooting a rifle as one would shoot a shotgun works just fine up to 50-65 yards or so. Of course, it helps if the rifle is stocked to really fit the shooter.........and a lot of practice firing from the hind legs doesn't hurt any either. But that's true with ANY sight system.

The front sight should be something large that your eyes find easy to pick up in the cover you normally hunt.

This makes good sense to me. It would seem to me that sighting down the barrel (over what could be wide rear sights) and merely picking up the front blade would be optimal. If the rifle is sighted in to have the POI a little above the blade you would have an uncluttered view of most of the target -- whether its charging you or fleeing from you.

It would seem to me that this would have to be faster than trying to peer through any type of hole. The purpose is not accuracy per se, but good enough accuracy to put it in the vitals. Speed is the difference between either success or failure, or in the case of a charge, life or death.

quote:

it helps if the rifle is stocked to really fit the shooter..

True words.

Good information here from all ... I am setting up my first lever-action for this type of scenario, so I want to look at this from every angle.

I have a trijicon on mine, and it's quite nice, but I had to learn to keep my head off the stock -- if I tuck my head, I can't see -- the main problem I have is the size of the dot -- I think its a 4.3 MOA -- I can do the dinner plate bit just fine out to 100yds -- but it get's pretty big after that -- I've thought about sighting it in to shoot at the top of the dot -- but I don't know that it would help much, and I think reflex will be to put the dot on the target -- it's nice not to have batteries to deal w. and so far that sight has worked well in bright sun, night, using a spotlight on varmints, etc.

Use the williams peep sight ( minus the insert) and their fire sight front sight,very fast and stands out against most backgrounds. left them on both marlins ( 30-30,45-70) and have since added leupold scout scopes.

Thunderstick, idle question(s) if you don't mind? Have you used a peep before, and how old are you? Reason for question(s) is this. My sense of your posts is that you have not, and maybe you're....30 something? If I'm wrong, my apologies...unless you're older...

Eyes go with age, aperture sights still function long after leaf sights do not, and certainly in dark woods conditions...as relates to time of day, and years of life. My observations about aperture sights are that most approach them with an anal attitude, ie. they try to be too precise with them and waste a lot of time. Thus they assume they are slow sights. Competitions apertures are very very small(and much slower) for rifle shooters and that is NOT what I refer to, nor do the others preceeding this post. There is a learning curve...maybe an acceptance curve if you will. Before you make up your mind on a project such as this, and assuming my read is right, find a gun with an aperture sight and shoot it. Shoot it a lot. From a rest, then on your hind legs, sitting, prone, hanging from a tree by your knees(if you have a CRF action ). Try some contrived snap shots at odd distances...rocks on a hill side? My point is that if you were familiar with the utilization of aperture sights I don't think you'd be puzzling over the solution. Peeps and lever guns go together like love and attorneys. Lever guns and snap shots go together like root beer and vanilla ice cream.

If you happen to have an old Winchester 94 laying around you can bolt a Williams receiver sight on it yourself, and it might cost $20-30 bucks..I dunno, it's been awhile since I bought one. Hope you reload 'cause you'll wind up shooting it alot...probably. I say Winchester only because I have one...snap shots are the one point where it is superior to a Marlin...lighter, trimmer, quicker to shoulder...all of that rifleman crapola...precision is not on the platter in this scenario. Minute of Chest Cavity is, on the fly.

I mentioned the red dot earlier...still think it's quicker, but it's real advantage is open eyes, and darkness where an aperture won't work...that's my take. Regardless of your choice ya gotta shoot a LOT to appreciate the merits of either system.

You seen a military rifle in the last 60 years or so that was built with anything other than aperture sights? Yes? What was it wearing? Oh, an Aimpoint Red Dot....

I'll quit babblin' about it now.

I have a new model 94AE winchester 30-30 (first center-fire lever for a bolt guy) which I bought instead of a Marlin for the same reasons you mention -- handling characteristics.

I am in my 30s and have used open sights quite a bit from youth on up -- on BB guns, 22s, and a flintlock. I had an old bolt Marlin 22 with an aperture sight that I used for a short period before adding a scope. So I do not have a lot of experience with peeps, but am comfortable with open sights. I understand the principles of large and small peeps. Hence my questions were, how much faster can a peep be, for my eyes do fine with open sights?

The other issue is that this will be the first rifle my 10 yr. old boy will use (is currently shooting), as he wants to hunt with a lever gun. He is not sure whether he wants to hunt with a scope or open sights. I currently have a scope on it to work up a reportoire of loads. I chose weaver bases so the scope can be easily removed and open sights used over the scope bases. The scope can be very easily put back on with little POI shift.

If I go with a receiver sight, this means eliminating the scope bases and comitting my boy to receiver sights as well. I also want to use the rifle for plinking and still-hunting. He is not going to get all the usage ... yet...

So open sights offer the scope option, but a receiver sight is probably superior for the dedicated usage I defined.

Decisions .........

quote:

If I go with a receiver sight, this means eliminating the scope bases and comitting my boy to receiver sights as well. I also want to use the rifle for plinking and still-hunting.

You could buy the XS scout scope base, a Burris or Leupold scout scope (or a red dot sight) _and_ install an aperture rear sight.

quote:

I had an old bolt Marlin 22 with an aperture sight that I used for a short period before adding a scope. So I do not have a lot of experience with peeps, but am comfortable with open sights. I understand the principles of large and small peeps. Hence my questions were, how much faster can a peep be, for my eyes do fine with open sights?

I would suggest that if your eyes are good you can probably do ok with leaf sights. In addition I'd guess the Marlin you mentioned likely had a smallish diameter aperture, they usually do. I realize your quest is speed, but don't forget the goal. To put lead on target. If you were in my local area I'd let you burn a 100 or so rounds with my 94...visualizing and doin' are different things I think...you have to try the system to see the utility of it.

My particular 94 is a Traper model. Did two trips to the range with it and moved over to the Williams sight, this at a time when I had 20/15 vision(how I miss those days!) I have killed more deer and hogs with that gun that all other rifles I own combined. Some few were buggin' out when I shot them, most were not. I have missed a couple of stationary shots due to unseen limbs/twiggs on deer, none on the snap shots. Thing is I have no recollection of looking thru the peep on the snap shots, though I certainly was. What I recall from those events is seeing the post merge with the critter...end of story. About as fast as a shot on a covey rise of quail. I recently shot a hog with a red dot as well, trotting down a trail. Dot on hog, DRT. It wasn't much of a test...the adrenaline was not flowing...I'm sure it wouldn't have mattered however.

Best of luck on whatever path you take!

When I was a kid, I loved iron sights --- got to play cowboy when I was out hunting rabbits w. my Win. 22 1894 -- until I was told to eliminate a bunch of rabbits -- we were getting really overpopulated -- then I really liked my 3x9 leupold -- I should mention that I was also wearing glasses by then, and I had an easier time using a scope, than iron sights. Not really that helpful, I guess -- but I think most boys might like peep sights to let them play cowboy a bit.

Maybe a couple of more thoughts....

I suspect that for fast shooting, a peep sight's main function is to make sure you have your head in about the same position each time
you fire. So, When Digital Dan says that he doesn't remember looking through the peep, just putting the dot where it belongs on the animal, he is describing a phenomenon that is the result of his correctly using the sight exactly the way it was designed to be employed. He is essentially shooting his rifle like a shotgun taking a rising bird on the fly...only in this case it's a rising deer on the bound. And his peep sight is making him put his head in the right position to do that. (From what he's posted over the years, I'm sure he would anyway, but the peep sight is a handy "failsafe".)

For both peep sights and open sights, when jump shooting game, it is important to remember one thing: The rear sights are "reference points", not micrometers for surgically scrutinized perfection.

Open sights work just fine too, if one uses them just as references, glimpsed quickly during the process, and not the object OF the process.

For me, the best open sight is a straight, flat-topped, bar with NO "V" or "U" into which to place the front sight. Just like a police officer in a shooting incident, I concentrate on the front sight on the target. The rear bar just makes me raise the front sight high enough to see it over the bar and supplies a vague peripheral reference as to right and left.

In the end, like a good peep sight, it really just makes me put my head in the right place on the stock, and the result is that the animal falls down, only rarely to ever rise again however briefly.

You guys got it again!~!

Proper cheek weld on the stock...place the bead on the spot you would like to shoot.... squeeze the trigger and use good follow thru....that's all it takes.

Try it with a 22 rifle. Take the rear sight off and practice a box or 2 of 22's until you can hit a 2 lb coffee can at 25 yds every time you shoot. Mount the rifle the same each time and you will learn quickly to hit without a rear sight.

DD,

I still have 20/15...the problem is it starts at 6 feet!!

I think a low powered scope is the fastest. Try it and see.

quote:

Originally posted by Thunderstick:
On a lever-action which is set up for still-hunting through the woods, which sight system (excluding scopes) do you prefer for the probable jump shots?

While an aperture is more accurate for target shooting, is it as fast as the semi-buckhorn sights for the quick close range shot?

A shallow V express rear w/ a 3/32 bead front, or a large ghost rear (not target peep) along w/ a 3/32 bead or partridge blade. These are about as quick as it gets for fixed sights.

Many of the quality front sights (such as some of the Recknagel's, Sig machine gun, etc.) regulate the front sight hood so that you can look over the rear sight and center the entire hood on your target and hit center inside 25 yards or so. Our issued Sigs are like this and I have a big bore DG rifle w/ a Recknagel sight that does this. They are about as fast as pointing your finger.

Gary

*** HOLOSIGHT ***

It's not just which sight system is fastest , -- it's also what you're shooting , -- PLUS the sight system , -- that determines how fast the rig is on snap shots .

For example , -- you could strap the fastest sight system in the world , on an awkward long-gun , that doesn't throw up and point naturally to where you're looking , (when your eyes are tracking a moving target ) ; and you would still be relatively slow . -- Ask any wing-shooter , or competition Shotgun shooter about this .

There are two basic styles of fast-target- acquisition shooting . One is where you carry your weapon at port-arms , or in your favorite sporting ready-position .

And the other is like a Fighter Pilot's display visor , -- where you use a heads-up style ; simply scan constantly through your environment with both eyes open , searching for the target , and the recticle or aimpoint follows your eye/head movement . --- When you locate the target , simply fine tune the dot to the target , and pull the trigger when it superimposes .

The first method requires a properly fitted stock , and gun , that will end up imitating a good Skeet , or dove gun . -- Well balanced , custom fitted stock , etc .

If it's not a Shotgun , the African hunters will tell you the sight system should be a shallow-V , or shallow-U , express sight,
( iron sight ) set-up ; probably with a largish white front bead , for dark backgrounds , and/or dim light .

If you have recent military training and like the Black-rifle types , -- The EO Tech Holosight , is the best of the best , --
( IMHO ) ; -- and also the fastest in general terms , because there is no alignment to struggle with at the last second ; ( i.e. , the red dot is very near the target when you first see the target .

Holosights like EO tech / Bushnell , can be mounted on practically any weapon .

Mount such a system on a Rifle or shotgun that throws up and points like a fine Dove Shotgun , and you've got the best of both worlds .

I've got an EOT mounted on a Beretta Xtrema II shotgun , and , it IS fast . Furthermore , with a semi-auto weapon , -- all you do is track the target , and tap off subsequent shots .

I know this is a Levergun Forum , but if you hunt in heavy cover , in a state that permits Buckshot hunting , the above combo would give you much speed .

Holosights ain't pretty , unless you like the looks of military stuff , -- effective they are . -- Iraq and Afiganistan has proved that . -- And the illuminated recticle is superior in dim light too .

I could never master shooting with both eyes open until I got the EOT , -- now its natural and easy .

Hope this helps ,

---------- Good Luck , -- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by mmconcolor:
*** HOLOSIGHT ***

If it's not a Shotgun , the African hunters will tell you the sight system should be a shallow-V , or shallow-U , express sight,
( iron sight ) set-up ; probably with a largish white front bead , for dark backgrounds , and/or dim light .

-- MMCOUGAR .

Would have to respectfully slightly disagree with "the African hunters", whoever they may be.


First, let's agree, if we can, that whatever one is used to is likely to be the faster for him/her.

Given that, lets go back to the principles of what makes sighting on and shooting a game animal "fast", so as to pick what we each want to practice with and become used to.

The very first principle, I suspect, is to concentrate on the game and not on other things while trying to get off a quick, deadly shot.

The more complex a sighting system is, the more conscious or subconscious thought is required to use it, and the slower it must become when compared to a more simple system which is used with equal practice and experience.

That is why, for an iron open rear sight, I recommend against a shallow V or "U", in favor of a simple flat bar. To actually use a "V" or "U", one has to take the time to place fhe front sight at the nadir of of the "V" or "U".

In other words, the "U" or "V" is there so one can be more precise in the horizontal centering of the front sight. To the extent that shot placement without great precision can be "good enough", then precision is the enemy of speed.

Time one spends on getting un-needed, finer, centering of the front sight in the rear sight is time wasted when the game is fleeing. That's true by defintion, no matter how little extra time is used to achieve any un-required centering.

That's one of the principal reasons such rear sights have never become popular on shotguns. They would take the mind off the bird (real or clay), and make it waste time doing something un-needed.


It appears likely, then, there is some balance point between no sighting at all (and thus no need for ANY sights front or rear), and sufficient precision to strike the target (game) a deadly blow.

To the degree one can build consistent mounting and firing by having a well-fitting, "handy" firearm and doing a lot of practice, the more simple the sight he/she can use effectively.


For myself, that means a very large front sight the colour of which contrasts sharply with the cover in which it is to be used. The size and contrast make it easy to pick up as I mount the gun, and provides "enough" precision for my purposes out to about 65 yards.

If I am going to have a rear sight at all, I do not want the rear sight to attract my attention away from the front sight and/or the game by forcing me to place the front sight at some precise spot in/on it.

I especially don't want my eye going back and forth from the picture of the front sight on the game, to the picture of where the front sight is in the rear sight, while trying at the same time to follow the game with the front sight.

So, guess I agree with those anonymous "African hunters" that I like a large front sight, usually pure white except in desert environs. But, I disagree on the idea of a "V" or "U" in my rear sight except where shooting at relatively distant and immobile game, where more precision is both required and possible time-wise.

A simple red-dot system of some sort would be my preference if I had to use any kind of optical sight.

A gunsmith friend of mine has almost talked me into the SASS/Cowboy shooting thing. Since I have an odd collection of guns that will qualify, less handgun leather, I said I might give it a try, but no silly clothes.

Both my 1894 Marlins (.357 and .44) have Williams/Lyman peeps which are not allowed. If you use a peep, it must be tang mounted...which I don't like. A lot of guys use a barrel mounted full buckhorn as a "ghost ring" with great success. After my comment above about not needing a rear sight, I took the Wiliams off yesterday and proceeded to fire about 30 rounds without the rear sight. Results...I was snap shooting hanging plastic gallon milk jugs (which I equate to the kill zone on most deer size critters) from 10 to 50 yds and I hit about 90% of the time....not good enough. The misses were all at 50 yds. 30 yds and under was not a problem. More practice today...we'll see if that helps. If not, maybe a full buckhorn is in order.

Anyone else have any ideas?

quote:

Originally posted by Lowrider 49:
Both my 1894 Marlins (.357 and .44) have Williams/Lyman peeps which are not allowed. If you use a peep, it must be tang mounted...

Is that because of the "Cowboy" competition rules?

If so, too bad. They have several rules which strike me as rather phoney, which is one reason I find that game uninteresting to me. Another is the rule against using hammerless single-shot rifles, such as the Martini, which were concurrent technology with many of the allowed hammer guns...


I suspect your accuracy will increase with practice if you continue shooting without a rear sight. It's just like shooting a shotgun...virtually no one can count on breaking 50 straight the first time they pick one up and shoot it. Very few who CAN break 50-straight fairly regularly would want to bet on doing it the first time they tried a new gun...or their old gun with anything significant changed on it.

The truth of the matter for me is that all of the above mentioned systems are great. The best one is the one you practice with. Unfortunately I'm traditionalist enough to forego cool stuff like a Holosight on a '94. Too bad because its a great site for fast shooting. I have one on a Ruger 10/22 that is pure death on running rabbits. The only other system I think beats the Holosight is the ACOG. It uses a fiber optic thread to create the red dot and requires no batteries. Auto-adjusts for lighting conditions. The Holosight can be too bright for dusky conditions and it's unlikely you'll remember to dim it as the sun sets.

Thunderstick:

If you're a teenager - open sights will do very well - as long as you remember to pull that bead down into the "V"! For the rest of us, a peep sight will do best. (I hesitate to say what kind of peep because you don't mention what kind of lever action you have in mind. (A tang peep works great on a straight stock lever action. On a Savage 99 (newer models) a Lyman receiver sight will work very well) It's nice to see a guy wanting to use something other than a scope on jump shots. It really is fun to walk up deer,isn't it? Good luck.