Many good points have been made, perhaps we should continue this discussion while an a.t.v. is running...

FMC,

Why did you select Art Andreis, A&L Outdoors as your outfitter?

Let me try to temper the discussion just a bit.

1. the hunt itself was fine, the issues I have about the actual hunt itself are with priority- getting your son/guide out of the field rather than your overdue client. Also, the fact that he was using his "adopted son" to ferry me back/forth from camp before 0730/1730 HRS to save a buck, rather than use 40 Mile Air during normal/customary working hours.

This actually is the root of the whole mess. I had scheduled my hunt with two days weather pre/post hunt. During the final week, the guide said we had 3 more day to hunt, I thought 4- hunt friday morning, get out friday. When he called dad and said there was confusion (not the first instance of miscommunication b/w me and the guide) about how many more days to hunt, they decided to hunt all day friday and leave sat. As my flight out was sunday, no big deal hunt friday get out saturday morning (this also helped him coordinate flights to save on $). I did not ask for an extra day, they decided this and frankly at the time I welcomed an extra day hunting. Had skimping on $ not been an issue and had 40 Mile Air been the carrier, there probably not have been a problem with scheduling my transport during normal working hours. (I don't have a problem with coordinating flights- of course had the air carrier/outfitter relationship been on the up&up.)

2. the outfitter himself is also a pilot (though not with a commercial license), and the bush pilot was an "adopted" son of the outfitter, so Pilot In Command was the key issue to all- the clandestine meetings in my opinion were to cover up any evidence of poor judgement by the P.I.C. 1. weight (too much fuel) 2. frost/ice 3. water/mud on strip (Three of my colleagues are pilots and they shit when they saw the condition of the strip.) and potential lawsuit. And 2. what to tell the pilot's employer and the FAA as to the reasons for the crash: after all, he did not check in for work despite the outfitter talking to his boss. As stated earlier, they used P.I.C. to not take me home the previous night "it's too dangerous." Don't forget, the pilot was moonlighting and had to return to Tok before 0730 HRS and fly after 1930 HRS. So if he had a 40 min. run, he'd havre to take off at 0530 HRS to get back to work.

I don't know of Alaska law, but Texas law no mental anguish without phisical injury. I fractured my ankle hunting and continued the hunt, no injury from the crash. In all honesty I was not really affected by the crash, I am more pissed about 1. not getting home earlier 2. the deceitfulness and 3. how uncomfortable I felt after the crash and

FMC, I understand your being pissed about the experience, but may I remind you and the rest of our members to "tone" down the language (as in your first post).

Some members here read these forums at work and more than one has complained about posts that are not safe for work screens.

Thanks,

Don

While DRG's point is well taken and the language should be toned down.

In all fairness to everyone else, anyone with a work place that tight, should not be on the internet reading hunting forums while at work and on their company's clock. Instead, should be doing their work to keep their boss off their back, instead of making a problem for the admin/mods here with non sense complaints. my .02.

FMC, while I am not a pilot, I beleive the pilot is supposed to have extra fuel on board per regulations. I beleive there is a formula to calculate how much reserve fuel? Maybe some of the pilots here can chime in on that?

The bigger issues here are:

Not reporting the accident to the mulitude of agencies that are supposed to be notifed promptly.

Getting the guide out of the field first and leaving an injured client in the field.

Ice on the wings and the poor/unsafe condition of the runway. Improvements made to the runway after the crash could be construed as a cover up or tampering with evidence.

FMC,Sorry to hear about your bad experience.Glad to hear you got out alive.
As to the langauge content,people who use the Computer at work for private purposes are stealing time from their Employer.I dont in the least feel bad for them. OB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FMC:
Well, rather than take care of their client, they got their son out of the bush and now it is too dark to fly so I gotta stay an extra night at main camp. Take off is postponed.

After the crash, my guide comes screaming down the hill screaming "it's all your fault you, you just had to get home you, you're the biggest in the world." He's 6'5 and I'm thinking he's gonna hit me.....oh did I tell you I just got out of a plane crash? He screamed at me, ran past me and never asked if his client is OK.[QUOTE]

Just one thing I am confused on. I understood the outfitter left you hanging the day before to fly your guide/his son out. Who was the guide left to call you names?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Whatever it was, as far as the FAA is concerned the issue was never corrected or addressed and the aircraft was not fit to fly. And flying a passenger in such a plane may involve some criminal violations - it is certainly reckless endangerment in my book.

How did you draw that conclusion?

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
FMC,Sorry to hear about your bad experience.Glad to hear you got out alive.
As to the langauge content,people who use the Computer at work for private purposes are stealing time from their Employer.I dont in the least feel bad for them. OB

Hmm I've seen a lot of people who most of the time at work just sit there with nothing to do. If someone has that type job they might as well be on AR.

Regardless of the weather, game sighted/taken (or lack of) I can't fathom any Outfitter/Guide talking to a client that way. FMC, you may be every Guide's nightmare, but I can't imagine that. Anyone that spends the time to finish college, then medical school and goes on to become a Doctor deals with life and death on a regular basis. Generally, these said Doctors have learned a lot about human psychology and know how to deal with deteriorating situations, which you definitely were experiencing. No where in your story do I find you doing anything that would warrant such behavior from your Guides. As another member said "I would have shot someone" sounds more reasonable to me, especially for the extreme duress they put you in. I would have feared for my life. I really hope this all works out for you in the most positive way. Guides are required to be licensed, but does it guarantee they are stable? If I want to go to AK and hunt Sheep, I must have a licensed guide. Same for most of Alaska's big game. There is a reason for this and the main reason is to expect to be kept from harm as much as humanly possible, and treated with reasonable respect. Damn, this is bad. Please keep us posted and have a speedy recovery. David

Glad you are okay. Living here in Tok, I will ask around. I know the pilot and it sounds like no matter what, he should have NOT taken off in those conditions. When I saw the picture of the muddy strip, I was pretty sure you were at Andreis's place. I have flown over that before. Glad you reported it to the FAA. Too many crashes that don't get reported! My dad was an air traffic controller in Northway for over 20 years, and the FAA gets pretty serious about these types of wrecks, especially ones that are obviously avoidable! That strip looks like hell. I am sure those people were concocting some type of story for the FAA and NTSB. They NEED to have their stories straight. Kind of funny one time as a friend of mine clipped his wing and prop flying into a strip. There was NO hesistation by others to report it to FAA. My friend hadn't even gotten out of the field and he had messages on his phone from FAA. I am glad you have the pictures as they will surely come in handy! Again, glad you are okay and back at home!

DRG,

Thanks for your professionalism. You have tough duty keeping us rowdies in line. Ha!

Alaska has sure spawned an avalanche of cuss-words!

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

Hmm I've seen a lot of people who most of the time at work just sit there with nothing to do. If someone has that type job they might as well be on AR.

That is correct, what you are describing is called the boss and many times he has the corner office, with privacy.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
FMC,Sorry to hear about your bad experience.Glad to hear you got out alive.
As to the langauge content,people who use the Computer at work for private purposes are stealing time from their Employer.I dont in the least feel bad for them. OB

I guess you don't look at porn either, too bad.

Some further answers.

1. Another pilot who has flown from that strip numerous times said all that was needed in the tanks was 8 gallons, not 20-25. (is it 6 or 8lb/gallon)

2. As a physician I want to know why the planes weren't flying. "The plane'll come when they can fly" just is not a satisfactory answer to me, sorry, but I want to know why! And now I know about high winds, ceiling, cloud dispersal etc. Yeah I asked a lot of questions, but that was not his first rodeo and I'm sure he's had other clients go nuts while waiting in a tent in the rain....chinese water torture.

3. Frankly, had I had to spend the night I would not have allowed myself to fall asleep. Yes I did feel very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. (My guide did read the bible, which was maybe comforting but not that much)

4. Howard- the guide was his son, who was running down the hill. Rather than leave the guide in the field one more day to get me home that night, they tried to make an extra trip to get the guide to main camp before flying me back to Tok. The guide actually told me several times while we were waiting for the plane "You're lucky, I'll have to spend another night here." There just wasn't enough daylight to do all that so I got stuck one more day/night at camp. This actually translates into two working days as I could have driven through the night to get to Fairbanks to make the 0700 flight. Flying out in the morning would have made it impossible to get to Houston in one day.

Also bit of jealousy/resentment by the guide, during the course of the hunt I told my guide I own a Ferrari and an Aston Martin Vanquish, to which he replied "Oh my God, I just love the Aston Martin Vanquish," and "I can't believe you've got an Aston Martin." And one of the phrases he said on his tirade was "you just had to get back to your F_N Aston Martin, you F_N a-hole."

5. Yes the NTSB and the FAA were both interested in the meetings and the runway conditions pre and post crash.

By the way, the guide was telling me has has an assistant guides license and only needs to take the test to get a full guide's license...........maybe not as I plan on quoting him verbatum to the guide board.

Something was certainly not right here! You surely weren't treated as a valued client. Too many mistakes happened here to be overlooked. Good luck with your reporting to the FAA, NTSB, and the guide board. You certainly have a "strong" case for all!

quote:

Originally posted by Northway:
Something was certainly not right here! You surely weren't treated as a valued client. Too many mistakes happened here to be overlooked. Good luck with your reporting to the FAA, NTSB, and the guide board. You certainly have a "strong" case for all!

In all honesty, all that needed to be said was "I fckd up, we shouldn't have taken off," "You OK from the guide" and not hiding the crash from 40 Mile Air/etc and you know what I woulda been happy with walking away from a potentially deadly crash and all would have been well. The hospitals, my partners etc wouldn't have cared how much work was missed, I got a get out of jail free card.....

P.S. My wife still would be pissed cause she missed out on $*8M in life insurance and the 2 weeks worth of bitching she had stored up waiting for me to get home has been trumped........

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
P.S. My wife still would be pissed cause she missed out on $*8M in life insurance and the 2 weeks worth of bitching she had stored up waiting for me to get home has been trumped........

I knew my wife had a third sister out there somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
[QUOTE]
3. Frankly, had I had to spend the night I would not have allowed myself to fall asleep. Yes I did feel very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. (My guide did read the bible, which was maybe comforting but not that much)

Bible John
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Learn more about citing Wikipedia •Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses of the name, see Bible John (disambiguation).
Bible John is the nickname of an unidentified serial killer who is thought to have operated in Glasgow, Scotland, in the late 1960s. Three murders were attributed to him, but it is not clear that they were the work of the same person and officially the police still have an open mind on this.

Just something to think about.

FMC:

re: #1.

only a fool and it seems there are a few in the tok area, would take off with the bare minimum of fuel that is needed for the trip. if you hit a head wind, need to circle, experience another problem then there is an insufficient fuel reserve and a stall and crash takes place.

fuel weights about 8.3 lbs./gallon. he may not have needed full tanks, but an adequate reserve is required when flying passengers commercially, like in your case.

We have all heard about your bad experience but your said that you had a good hunt. What were you hunting and did you get anything? Let's hear the story and some pictures of the dead critter.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
P.S. My wife still would be pissed cause she missed out on $*8M in life insurance and the 2 weeks worth of bitching she had stored up waiting for me to get home has been trumped........

I knew my wife had a third sister out there somewhere.

Make it a fourth sister - she lives with my brother in law.

It seems to me from sifting through all this that the cause of the crash was the ice or frost on the wings. If it was foggy and the temperature as FMC stated was 5 degrees Farenheit, it was way below freezing. If that was the case, the strip would not have been that muddy and the ruts etc should have been pretty firm. Also from the pics the supercub appeared to have small tundra tires that would have handled those conditions pretty well. The fuel carried in the plane was not a big factor in my experience as from the description of the various weights the total weight in the plane, including fuel (653 lbs) was a little more than half the useful load of a supercub which is around 1100 lbs. Carrying extra fuel in the back country is a usual and I would argue prudent practice, so that doesn't bother me too much.
Attempting to take off with ice and frost on the wings is a wholly other matter. Did they attempt to at least "buff" the wings smooth before they tried to take off? It sounds from FMC's description of the take-off roll itself that the plane simply did not want to fly out of ground effect and that is more a function of the ice and frost then the weight. Again, if there was nothing else in the plane but FMC, the pilot, 67 lbs of gear and 150 lbs of fuel a supercub should have been more than able to climb out of ground effect, especially in cold, dense air. FMC is lucky to be alive and we all thank God for that.
We all have to remember though that in the wilderness (especially in places like Alaska) we have to be cognizant that what we do back in the real world is not nearly as important as our lives. Especially when aircraft are involved in the bush we have to have the attitude that if we absolutely have to be somewhere at a specific time and date, we shouldn't be depending on airplanes to get us there or back on any sort of a schedule.
I can tell from the posts that FMC was very upset that he were not taken out the night before. Without excusing the pilot or the outfitter for the outcome or their exceedingly poor judgment, FMC you should ask yourself whether the pressure you put on them to get you out contributed to the willingness of the outfitter and the pilot to fly in conditions they knew were not acceptable? Did you have any qualms about getting in that plane that morning or did the "need" to get back outweigh any nagging doubts you may have had in your mind about the potential safety of the flight. Did you have any sense that they were trying to just get you out, because you had expressed that you really needed to get back. Again, I only raise these questions as a lesson to all of us who fly ourselves or fly with others in the back country. The pilot has full legal responsiblility for the flight, but we as passengers have full responsibility for putting ourselves in the seat. If one has any sense that something is clouding the pilot's judgment (even pressure that we may be bringing to the situation even justifiably so) one needs to delay the flight. "Gethomeitis" has killed too many pilots and their passengers and is still one of the primary cause of weather related accidents in general aviation.
FMC if you had been killed or seriously hurt in the crash, what impact would that have had on the schedules back home?

EB:

Makes many good points about the weight issues and the super cub's capabilities. The paragraph break is your friend, a little hard on the eyes.

When you are flying anywhere, and especially up here in Alaska, it is the pilot you are putting your trust in. I have flown out with 40 mile air and spent and extra 5 days in the field as there was NO WAY they could get us. I respect that fact and would rather sit and wait then take the risk of a wreck. This to me is pilot error, no questions. If the pilot is willing to risk flying in adverse conditions with a client, they should no longer be flying. I am also "ass"uming here, but it sounds like the pilot may have been trying to get back to his real job??? Pushing the limit in any plane is plain stupid. Like the old saying goes: there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old/bold pilots. I will make sure that if I fly with 40 mile air, the pilot involved here will NOT fly me anywhere.

Cold zero,

"only a fool and it seems there are a few in the tok area"

Who would you be refering to with this statement? Sure would like to know anyone here that you know that fits this statement. Just like to be educated.

No EB.

He was moonlighting and had to be back to Tok by 0730HRS regardless, with/without me. Besides the pilot already exhibited P.I.C. the night before.

Indeed there was still frost on the wings, I did notice that and really (it) was in the back of my mind as we started down the strip. He did make the comment "it'll (frost) blow off when I get her up in the air." That statement was laughed at by one of the owners of 40 Mile Air. I'm sure it will raise an eyebrow to both the NTSB and FAA officers.

The water was not frozen, there were 3 takoeoffs/landings the night before, probably too much colloid effect from the mud as to why it wasn't frozen. Flaps were not deployed by the way.

He did have over 300 ft of tundra to abort, surely enough to stop a cub.

quote:

Originally posted by Northway:
I will make sure that if I fly with 40 mile air, the pilot involved here will NOT fly me anywhere.

FYI I flew with Leif, Randy and Brian from 40 Mile. Good guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Northway:
Cold zero,

"only a fool and it seems there are a few in the tok area"

Who would you be refering to with this statement? Sure would like to know anyone here that you know that fits this statement. Just like to be educated.

Northway:

The outfitter, the guide, the pilot, the ast. guide who cursed out a client for something that was not his fault, to name a few people.

No reflection inferred, nor intended against the residents of TOK. I personally know of no one there that fits my description, just the characters in this disgraceful and illegal debacle.

Do I need to clarify anything else?

FMC,

Glad to hear you weren't hurt in the crash. Unfortunately we loose way too many people every year due to pilots with poor judgement.

As a friend is fond of saying, people who are dying to get home from a hunt, often do. I also tell folks who are coming up here to hunt that they need to realize there is a good chance that their return home could be delayed a week.

FMC, Thanks for the info. Also, the useful load of a stock supercub is pretty close to the weight you had in the plane (my bad), but if there was frost on the wings (even a little) it would have seriously affected the ability of the wing to fly. I'm sure the FAA will clobber these guys as they should. Take care

Cold Zero,

I hope I didn't sound like I thought anything was directed at me. I hate sometimes how things read after being typed. I was just wondering if you had/knew of some bad experiences here and would have loved to know who they were so they could be avoided by me!

The guide doesn't live in Tok. He operates up in the Middle Fork Drainage. I think he lives in Fairbanks. Obviously A LOT went wrong here and am glad that FMC is safe at home.

FMC, I know Leif and Randy well. I would fly with either of them anytime, anywhere. I know of the pilot you flew with that wrecked. It will be interesting to see if he continues flying with 40 mile air. Consider a drop of hunt with Leif. They put you in some good areas up there. Depending on what you are after of course. Did you get to hunt and did you get any animals? I am assuming that you were after moose, bears, caribou? Probably the later if you were coming out that early.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
FMC,Sorry to hear about your bad experience.Glad to hear you got out alive.
As to the langauge content,people who use the Computer at work for private purposes are stealing time from their Employer.I dont in the least feel bad for them. OB

Hmm I've seen a lot of people who most of the time at work just sit there with nothing to do. If someone has that type job they might as well be on AR.

Not on my Dime.I pay for 8 hours of work.Thats what I expect.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OLBIKER:
FMC,Sorry to hear about your bad experience.Glad to hear you got out alive.
As to the langauge content,people who use the Computer at work for private purposes are stealing time from their Employer.I dont in the least feel bad for them. OB

I guess you don't look at porn either, too bad.

I have nothing against Porn.I dont care what people do at home.They can shoot smack and look at anything they want on their own time.Not on mine!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by EB:
FMC, Thanks for the info. Also, the useful load of a stock supercub is pretty close to the weight you had in the plane (my bad), but if there was frost on the wings (even a little) it would have seriously affected the ability of the wing to fly. I'm sure the FAA will clobber these guys as they should. Take care

The more I think and type it was most likely frost. Weight & the strip I'm sure had something to do with it also, but no laminar flow, no lift PERIOD.

1. I did not see air speed guage, but it seemed to me we definitely had enough speed to takeoff, we just never got off the ground. We were definitely travelling faster than Leif did later that afternoon (700ft total between strip & tundra).We kept bouncing and bouncing, I actually did think he'd eventually bounce the plane up and it'd take off, especially after running off the plateau. I really wasn't worried even after hitting brush as I truly thought we'd do an aircraft carrier type dip and takeoff........'til we hit the first tree...

2. We took off at a higher altitude 4000ft with me and gear the night before (granted longer and drier strip) to get to main camp, the only difference was 12 more gallons of fuel in AM, clear skies at night, fog in AM.

3. When Leif took off the next day at 1400 HRS- heat of the day (less lift) he did gear then me, we still took off using under 1/2 of the strip- I know he had a different plane (PA 18 I believe, but don't hold me to it) but it was under 200ft and air speed seemed slower than in the cub. Probably not a good comparison.

Oldbiker: just having a little fun in this whole thing- just imagine what would happen if I got busted looking at porn in the hospital

Oldbiker: just having a little fun in this whole thing- just imagine what would happen if I got busted looking at porn in the hospital[/QUOTE]

You had me going.Good one

Northway;

all is fine. you are there and i am not, you know most of the folks involved and i know only what i have read here. 40 mile air has a long standing and solid reputation. it will be interesting to see if the pilot involved keeps his job with them.

I have not hunted tok, yet. I did apply last year for the tok mgt. area for sheep and will do so again this year. the guys involved in this really distinguished themselves...

Although not current, I am a private pilot and one of the first things I learned was that the wings had to be completely frost free before trying to take off. Even a small amount of frost will disrupt the flow of air over the wings and thus not allowing lift.

quote:

Flaps were not deployed by the way.

Not at all? For a takeoff?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Flaps were not deployed by the way.

Not at all? For a takeoff?

Affirmative. I remember getting in, glancing at fuel lines showing 1/2 full, then full throttle applied (as I said earlier in prior soft runway takeoffs the tail always rose- this time it did not) I looked out and flaps were up.

For a short field takeoff, I believe the Super Cub is supposed to have about 25 degree flaps. That would explain a lack of lift.