Oh My! That was WAY too much of an adventure!

Glad you're "OK." Hope the authorities make the lives of the "right" folks simply miserable! They deserve it.

FMC,

What made you select Art Andreis, A&L Outdoors as your outfitter to begin with?

FMC--

Thanks for your continued info.

Frost and configuration problems are frequent killers in planes of all sizes. (I fly for a living...)

Your statements and photos will help sort things out......and I believe the appropriate agencies will do just that.

Sorry to have confused your justified anger with vindictiveness.

Cheers,

Dan

My first Alaskan hunt was a drop hunt.The guy was supose to go with me and I was going to help him also.He said the weather was too bad and he was going to his cabin.We tore holes in the winging trying to land on an uncleared old runway.I was left without knowing when I was to be picked back up.The guy refused to pick me back up and after battling grizzleys for night upon end ,a leaking tent and three foot of snow a too little of a sleeping bag and no moose to be seen I flagged down a plane after 10 days.I knew the last night I was about a goner.I was wet getting hypothermia,grizzleys were trying to get into my tent and I was freezing to death at 8 degrees.I flagged down a Wright Air plane who radioed the jerk who flew me from Delta Junction.They at first refused to come then the guy radioed the FFA that they wouldnt pick me up and they finally came.They waited till a snow storm to pick me up and we had to fly about 50 foot off of the River.Then we went to the bombing range and the army told us to pull up.Then the sand hill craines were wacking the plane.We finally made it back.The guy I flew with was finally banned from flying people across the river and I should have turned hin in for not flying me back when I asked him.You really have to watch who you fly with in Alaska there are alot of half ass companies that are fly by night that will get you in deep trouble.Alaska has more small plane crashes than the rest of the country all put together.Alot are due to weather but I think alot of these guys dont need to be flying.The guy I flew with had a brain tumor and should not have been flying.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Flaps were not deployed by the way.

Not at all? For a takeoff?

+1. I'm no bush pilot, and I only have about 800 hrs on various types (none at all on Super Cubs), but the only thing I've flown that didn't have "set flaps" as part of the pre take-off checklist was rotary wing...

Any Cub drivers want to chime in?

CZ,

Sounds like you a big sheep hunter. I saw your sheep on pristine ventures website. I've been trying for TMA a LONG time. Have friends that have been drawn during this span. I guess the time will come some day. I heard this year was a bad season for sheep and the harvest was low. Will be interesting to hear how it went at the next fish and game advisory meeting in October.

I've have flown quite a bit in cubs and they do NOT take that much strip to get off the ground. Doesn't sound like the plane was overloaded either. Again most wrecks are attributed to "pilot error" and this sounds like a classic case! I hope you keep us all posted on how this all plays out. I will try to get ahold of Leif and see what is up over there.

If it's 5 degrees, there is ice on the wings. Planes don't fly well with ice on the wings.

IMO, that plane should have taken off even though the runway was crappy. From the looks of it, there is plenty of room. That pilot got off the ground, came down, bounced tried to get it up and down it went.....Ice on the wings.

IMO, the deployment flaps are a none issue...some older pa-18's don't have any. A lot of pilots pull the flaps on in a cub to rise into ground effect. The flaps are operated with a lever that could be mistaken for a parking brake...very quick and easy to pull on a notch or two.
Mud at 5 degrees?....Sounds like frost was the culprit to me...

I'm glad you are ok.

In the second set of pictures it looks like the flaps are set mid-range. With no other info and based on your description (looong take off roll) I'd have to assume frost was the culprit.

Bob

holy ****

You are one of the few people in the world that can say you survived a plane crash! Sorry to hear about how bad the service was...good help is hard to come by wherever you go

Totally unacceptable (unlawful) action and I hope they get hit with the book! Too many of these outfitters are allowed to cut way too many corners, IMHO.

A couple of things here.

fmc,

What you describe is a case of gross negligence on the pilots part.

A commercial pilots license is a professional license and the PIC is the final say and ALL responsibility for the safety of flight rests with him PERIOD END OF STORY!

Blaming you for the crash would be like a doctor blaming the patient after cutting off the wrong leg in an amputation surgery. You were in the pilots care. It's as simple as that!

It is not only a well known fact that ANY ice or frost adhering to a lift producing flight surface will greatly reduce lifting capability. IT IS ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLY COMMON TABOOS IN AVIATION. NEVER TAKE OFF WITH ANY ICE OR FROST ADHERING TO THE WINGS OR TAIL.

It would be like you treating a patient with a cut finger but letting him die because he didn't have a patent airway.

Just simple ABC's of the flying profession that were ignored! Unbelievable!!!!!

Just for your future reference a partial coating of frost as thin as a sheet of 00 sand paper on a wing will kill up to 40% of your wings lifting capability. IT WILL NOT "BLOW" OFF.

That is basic flying knowledge 101!

100LL AV-GAS weighs approximately 6lbs per gallon. NOT 8.5lbs per gallon. Jet fuel weighs approximately 6.6 Lbs per gallon. Water weighs about 8Lbs per gallon.

A PA-18 is a Piper Super Cub, they came in 130, 150 and 180 Horse power configurations from the factory. A 150 horse cub should have had no problem with proper tires getting you out of that mud hole strip.

HOWEVER at the temperatures that you described and given the amount of moisture on the strip you were almost guarantied to develop carburetor ice on the take off roll unless the pilot applied full carb heat for the take off which would have decreased the power available to the engine making that take off VERY iffy even without the frost adhering to the wings.

You basically didn't have a chance and any pilot worth with any experience or knowledge would have not attempted that takeoff under those conditions.

You were loaded in the "boat" my friend and the ONLY reason you are still alive is that god almighty didn't decide to provide a spark to ignite all the AV-Gas that was leaking out of the ruptured fuel tank.

I'd be glad to speak to you further about this if you'd like send me a PM.

I've been a professional pilot for 20 years. Including having been a bush pilot in Alaska.

This story really boils my blood.

Great post Surestrike.

quote:

Originally posted by Kusko:
If it's 5 degrees, there is ice on the wings. Planes don't fly well with ice on the wings.

IMO, that plane should have taken off even though the runway was crappy. From the looks of it, there is plenty of room. That pilot got off the ground, came down, bounced tried to get it up and down it went.....Ice on the wings.

Isn't icing one of those things that has been written in blood so many times it's not funny?

As you say, basic, 101 type stuff...

Thankfully, not written in blood this time.

FMC, glad you made it OK.

FMC,I"m sorry to hear about your bad luck.I was on my way out of an 11 day hunt with 40 mile air. I had heard about the accident from my pilot. It sounded like 40 mile air was not involved, Is this correct? It sounds like that guiding service that you went with needs to be put out of business. The problem is that they may take the pilots license, but the guiding service will still operate.What a shame. Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 69deer:
FMC,I"m sorry to hear about your bad luck.I was on my way out of an 11 day hunt with 40 mile air. I had heard about the accident from my pilot. It sounded like 40 mile air was not involved, Is this correct? It sounds like that guiding service that you went with needs to be put out of business. The problem is that they may take the pilots license, but the guiding service will still operate.What a shame. Jeff

Absolutely correct 40 Mile Air was not involved. The pilot was employed by them at the time, but he was freelancing on his own. I highly recommend 40 Mile Air.

Once again, as far as licenses:
1.I went out of my way to contact the NTSB- that officer told me to expect a call, and I have been subsequently contacted by the FAA and was asked by the officer in charge to prepare a statement. DONE.

2.They are next. http://www.dced.state.ak.us/occ/pgui.htm

P.S. Buliwyf: Last year I had an elk hunt get cancelled at the last minute and was scrambling to book another hunt. I contacted several outfitters. I wound up going to BC. At the time, Art had e-mailed me he had no openings, but that "next year I have an opening for a hunt- my pilot just cleared a strip in an area that has never been hunted before." Sounded good.

P.S.S. The only bad thing about an area that has neveer been hunted before is you really don't know what the winds will be like. This place was at the confluence of three major valleys and a fork in the river. The winds were squirrely at best- we never had a steady wind. You'd start a stalk, get close to the game and the goddamn wind would shift on you sometimes 180*.

Few comments:
Take em for what their worth.
I've been a Cub pilot and A/P, A/I in Alaska since 1966. I've worked on lots of Cubs and have a couple thousand hours in them. I own three.
1. According to the faa info the plane is a PA-18 with a 150 Hp engine. It is a Piper CUB.
2. Gross weight on an 18 is either 1750 or 2000# depending on different mods.
3. The pics show this Cub had Atlee Dodge long range fuel tanks. (Not important if you know how much fuel was aboard?)
4. Most 18s empty weight will be between 1100 and 1200#.
5. Giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the plane weight 1100 empty.
6. Let's also assume that the plane did not have the 2000# gross weight.
7. Using your figures, the plane had a load of 656# on take off. Legal load would have been 650#. 6#, no big deal, 1 gallon of fuel.
8. The Airworthiness Certificate does not mean a plane is Airworthy. It means at the time the Certificate was issued, it was airworthy.
9. Annual Inspections have nothing to do with A/W Certificates.
10. The FARS require 30 minutes reserve fuel for a VFR flight at the arrival point.(I may be wrong on this one. Prove it.)
11. PA-18 Pilot Owners Handbook says, no flaps required for take off in a Cub.
12. Stall speed with flaps up is 47 MPH.
13. Looking at your pics, it looks to me like the flaps were down?
14. Cubs will fly quite well with frost on the wings. However, the stall speed and the takeoff run will increase.
I'm not taking sides here, just clearing up a few points. I don't know anyone involved.
My guess? I figure the wet strip and a little frost on the wings, plus maybe inexperienced pilot was the culprit.
Glad everything worked out ok for you.

WOW!..What a story,Glad you made it out Alive,but I am sure by the time you are done with him,he will have regretted that you did! Good Luck Pal!

quote:

personally would avoid going out of my way to be too much of an asshole. Trying to get anyone's license of any sort pulled isn't your job....let the agencies that deal with them sort it out, and provide info as asked. If you get seen as someone who will go out of their way to screw folks (even though you have been wronged this time) it won't help you in the future.

Hmmm a much nicer attitude than I would take. If the facts are as posted this crew deserves jail time not just a license pull. I would do all in my power to ensure that they have no more contact with the public. The next person might not be so lucky.

quote:

After the crash, my guide comes screaming down the hill screaming "you fucking asshole, it's all your fault you fucking asshole, you just had to get home you fucking asshole, you're the biggest fucking asshole in the world." He's 6'5 and I'm thinking he's gonna hit me.....oh did I tell you I just got out of a plane crash? He screamed at me, ran past me and never asked if his client is OK.

And folks think that you only take a pistol for bear!

That the plane was so far out of cert says it all.........let us know how your recovery is going/ Chaz

Thanks guys. I am doing well. I have a cast from my ankle fracture- not crash related. It's a pain to try to be non weight bearing.

By the way: I was told there was a plane crash about ten years earlier from that same strip and that plane pretty much wound up in the same area.

The worst thing about the crash is the efect it had on my 9 y/o boy. He was not doing well from me being gone for 2 weeks to begin with (the most I had ever been away) and the second week was really hard on him..........and then when my wife told him that "daddy was in a plane crash"....well......he still has tears in his eyes when I talk about it.

Jeff. Who did you fly with from 40 Mile? What did he have to say? PM me if you like.

I know FMC has said this over and over, but just to clarify, 40 mile air had nothing to do with this mess. They are a first rate outfit and I would fly with Leif and Randy anytime/anywhere. They are a class act and great pilots.

FMC,

I believe Saint Hubertus himself got you home safe & sound. Good to have you back.

Roland

I haven't flown in years, but if I remember we always used a little flap when doing short or soft field takeoffs in Piper Cherokees and Cessenas. I would have to say that I never flew a PA18 but would think that the procedure is similar to the others. This wasn't the first time the plane was crashed either.Seems it happened once before and was flap related.
http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph-nntsb_connect?pass...199506.dat&pos=59792

Flap related or just plain old pilot error??

Plain ol' pilot error. He used the flaps to get off the runway quickly but dumped them (took them off) too soon and the plane quit flying. Flaps are used to create additional lift at slow speeds but at the price of a lot more drag. I was told to get them back up as soon as possible to help climb out speed, but not so quickly as to cause the plane to quit flying. Sounds like the same thing may have happened to the good Doctor here.

FNC,

I grew up in Hungerford, just up the highway from you. Wishing you and your son a speedy recovery.

As a commercial pilot, (not professionally) I must say that there were a number of human factors which lead to this event; mainly the "get-to-work-itis" of the PIC causing a total lapse of judgment and professionalism…He will soon face some stiff penalties from the FAA.

On a few occasions, I had to remove frost from the wing of the airplane (Maule) I regularly flew to a lease in South Texas….yes, it gets cold enough in south Texas to develop frost. While removing the frost, it seemed so innocent yet, deadly. All I could think about prior to removing the frost was staying in ground effect until meeting my demise in the Texas brush at the end of the road…

From the NTSB:
According to.wind tunnel data, a wing upper surface roughness caused by particles of only 1-2 mm [millimeter] diameter [the size of a grain of table salt], at a density of about one particle per square centimeter, can cause lift losses.of about 22 and 33 percent, in ground effect and free air, respectively.(2)

Greaseball.....




Im very glad to hear you are okay my friend. Been meaning to catch up with you anyway. Will give you a call this afternoon.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
Greaseball.....




Im very glad to hear you are okay my friend. Been meaning to catch up with you anyway. Will give you a call this afternoon.

Blow me xoxoxo Dago...

FMC, I am really glad that you made it through this ordeal. I also expect that your worst trip of your life has now been completed! Burn those bastards for what they are. The rogues I have met in AK have been among the worst.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
FMC, ypu are a better man than me. I would have probably shot somebody over this.

Let me point out that it isn't too late to go back and correct that oversight.
Pity this didn't happen in Texas

I'm not a pilot but it sounds to me like the pilot was less than competent.

as for the guide that screamed at you?
I dislike lawyers, I dislike assholes even more.

AD

What was the outcome of the investigation. Maybe FMC will see this and give us an update.

Wow. Blast from the past.

I spoke with the NTSB investigator and an insurance investigator at the time. The NTSB inv. called me back just before he filed his report and seemed apologetic as there was nothing they could do about the pilot as there is a "loophole" in the law that since the pilot was a licensed guide, he was able to fly me "commercially" in his private plane..or something along the lines. So other than what the final report states as to the cause of the accident, nothing came of it for him professionally. Now his insurance investigator got an earful from me - I don't know what happened there.



Aviation Accident Summary ANC07LA099
Tok, AK, USA

Aircraft #1
N82022

Piper PA-18

Analysis
The airline transport pilot, with a hunting client aboard, was departing from a soft, 900-foot long, mud and gravel-covered off-airport site that had an area of standing water near the departure end. During the takeoff run, the pilot said he was able to get the airplane airborne before reaching the area of standing water, but as the airplane began to climb, it struck a stand of trees at the departure end of the site. The airplane sustained structural damage to the wings, fuselage, and horizontal stabilizer. The pilot said that there were no preaccident mechanical anomalies with the airplane.

Factual Information
On September 11, 2007, about 0630 Alaska daylight time, a tundra tire-equipped Piper PA-18 airplane, N82022, sustained substantial damage during takeoff from an off-airport site, about 50 miles north of Tok, Alaska. The airplane was being operated as a visual flight rules (VFR) other work use flight under Title 14, CFR Part 91, when the accident occurred. The airline transport pilot and the one passenger were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed. The flight originated at the off-airport site, and was en route to the Tok Airport, Tok. During a telephone conversation with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigator-in-charge (IIC) on September 11, the pilot reported that on the morning of the accident, he awoke to a thick layer of ground fog, which delayed his departure. The purpose of the flight was to transport a hunting client to the Tok Airport at the conclusion of his guided hunting trip. After the fog had cleared, the pilot said he preheated the airplane's engine, removed any accumulation of frost from the wings, and did a preflight inspection. He said that the soft, 900-foot long, mud and gravel-covered site had an area of standing water near the departure end. During his takeoff run the pilot said that he was able to get the airplane airborne before reaching the area of standing water, but as the airplane began to climb, it struck a stand of trees at the departure end of the site. The airplane sustained structural damage to the wings, fuselage, and horizontal stabilizer. The pilot said that there were no preaccident mechanical anomalies with the airplane.

Probable Cause and Findings
The pilot's selection of an unsuitable takeoff area and failure to maintain clearance from trees during takeoff. Contributing to the accident were soft, muddy terrain conditions.



Source: NTSB Aviation Accident Database

Damn Frank... you had the good Lord on your shoulder on that escapade. Adventure for sure! A bit much I'd say.