I just got back from Tok on 9/12. I lost 20# in 2 weeks ( my guide was 6'5", 27 y/o former basketballball player), broke my ankle 6 days into the hunt (had an MRI on 9/13), I just tightened up my boots and dealt with the pain. After two weeks of this shit we waited for our bush plane. Inclement weather completely grounded planes for two days so we stayed in the tent 'til one came. I am now way past overdue by a long shot. I am a physician and besides the broken ankle, the 2 weeks of hunting, shitty weather, missing my family, I gotta get to the hospital, I just can't sit around jacking off looking at clouds....it was pretty imperative that I get out ASAP! The whole time we're waiting my guide says "you're lucky they'll get you out, but I gotta spend one more day out here." One finally arrives. The plan was to make three trips to get my guide (the outfitters son) out of the bush that night to main camp before sending me back to Tok. Well, rather than take care of their client, they got their son out of the bush and now it is too dark to fly so I gotta stay an extra night at main camp. Take off is postponed.

Now I'm pissed: 1. Guide and outfitter know client took a spill with severely twisted ankle (now known to be fractured)- the last night of the hunt before we waited for planes I told my guide I had a feeling it was broken and 2. Guide and outfitter knew client needed to be back ASAP. Rather than take care of client, those fucking cocksuckers got to enjoy a family get together at client's expense.

The next morning, we go to take off, go down the strip and bounce around, after 400' we run out of strip and start bouncing on the tundra, I'm thinking he's trying to bounce the bitch into the air. Landing gear, prop and struts now start hitting brush- I'm thinking probably not a good thing, run out of tundra after 300 more ft and bounce off plateau- I'm thinking aircraft carrier takeoff. We hit one tree..... now I'm not a pilot, but I'm 99 44/100% sure that is really not a good thing. Hit one more tree and spiral into the ground.

After the crash, my guide comes screaming down the hill screaming "you fucking asshole, it's all your fault you fucking asshole, you just had to get home you fucking asshole, you're the biggest fucking asshole in the world." He's 6'5 and I'm thinking he's gonna hit me.....oh did I tell you I just got out of a plane crash? He screamed at me, ran past me and never asked if his client is OK.

The remainder of the morning was bizarre. I asked to phone home (via a satellite phone). My wife was out and I left two messages on our recorder. Outfitter then called ________ to have them pick me up. The pilot was actually an "adopted son" of the outfitter who grew up with the oufitter and sons and who was moonlighting for this outfitter/dad i.e. flying before 0730 HRS and 1930 HRS during his regular job with ________. He instructed the outfitter to call and ask for _____________(his employer) but to not tell _____that he was there or there was an airplane crash. The outfitter did not report the crash at all, just requested a pickup for a hunter from his camp. After some pleasantries “I’ve got a hunter Frank C, who needs to be picked up from my camp.....†and “use the lower 300 ft of the strip, which is in better shape....†I was shocked that an airplane crash was not reported and of the blatant dishonesty (lying by omission) exhibited by both my outfitter and pilot. I find that irresponsible and inexcusable. When my wife called one of the hospitals telling them of the crash, a lady who works there called her son in the Alaska Coast Guard who wound up notifying Alaska Search and Rescue, who contacted my wife.

Before and after the phone calls there were numerous clandestine/secretive meetings between them (there was another guide at camp, but was never involved in any of the conversations- apparently a new guy to the camp/out of the family). After being screamed at, cussed at, and maliciously blamed for causing the accident, and especially after that deceitful phone call, I felt extremely uncomfortable and remained outside the cabin while they ate breakfast and talked. The other guide at camp started a 4 wheeler near the cabin, which muffled the voices in the cabin. When the 4 wheeler engine quit, he was instructed by outfitter to start it up again- once again muffling their conversation. After a few minutes the guide took the 4 wheeler away from the cabin. Immediately afterward, the four of them then moved from the kitchen table (near the door and me) to the back of the cabin tp continue their meeting.

The remainder of the morning and afternoon until I was picked up, they and the other guide worked on tidying up/fixing the strip. They made several trips with the 4 wheeler and spread numerous loads of gravel on the strip and also pumped water off of the strip with a portable pump. They continued to do so until I was picked up around 1400 HRS.

After the other pilot arrived, _____ told the outfitter that the strip still looked to be in bad condition, and reminded him that when he landed there the previous week that the strip needed work: he said “I told you last week ____ when I dropped in your wife you needed to work on the strip.â€

When I got back to Tok, and told them that they never called in to say there was a crash and the secretive meetings, the pilot said "of course they're just getting their story straight."

Well guess what............ I am NOW the biggest fucking asshole in the world. Although I didn't have to and probably was not going to be contacted .......I went out of my way and called the National Transportation Safety Board (the information gatherers) on my own. After hearing the facts, NTSB safety officer said he's gonna call the FAA (the enforcement division) and for me to expect a call. After talking with the FAA guy, I am now in the process of preparing a very detailed statement for the FFA...........oh and I took a shitload of pictures, which nobody knew about.

(pilots) License number 1. down, two to go.

Did I tell you I was an asshole.......this statement, along with pictures and more details will be forwarded to the Alaska Big Game Services Commercial Board. I will do anything and everything in my power to see to it that all licences are pulled.


Yes, that is gas dripping from the tank

Damn, glad to hear your back and doing Ok (I assume).

Now this sounds like a legitimate bitch about a guide vs that other thread.

Who was the guide/outfitter? once you had the injury they shoulda called it quits and got you out of there.

Wow!

What bothers me is the "getting their story straight" comment. Might not be a bad idea to get a lawyer involved sooner rather than later. This has all the signs of getting turned on its head and making you out to be the bad guy.

Didn't know it was busted until later, I am a physician though- my call, I could still walk, hurt like a motherfucker, but I opted to hunt. I am proud to say though that I still kept up with my guide 'til the end, never asked for a rest or for him to slow down.

I'd rather not mention the outfitter until I call the proper authorities.

They were getting their story straight with respect to the amount of fuel on board (read too many lbs), frost on the wings etc and the muddy strip.

P.S. Bitter sweet- uninjured so no damages/grounds for a lawsuit.

Here's the strip

Wow, that is a heck of a story and I'm glad you are all right.

Glad you're okay, FMC, but WOW! That is a sorry looking landing strip.

They might be able to patch the strip up a little, but they are not going to be able to hide that plane. The FAA will get on that ASAP, I'll bet.

It is clear who was most important on their list (not you). That is just crazy, you'll never hear about this sort of stuff on OLN.

With the pic of the landing strip and the pic of the crash, I am wondering if they had more going on than having to much fuel.

The plane landed in a stand of trees but none are shown in the landing strip pic (except on the right hand side).

I'd really get a lawyer in on this one. if they were grossly overweight or bad maintenance on the plane, it could get nasty.

Its not the ideal landing strip, but there are worse out there.

Once again, I'm glad you made it back safely. your getting screwed by these guys.

sounds like a company called XX mile air to me but I could be wrong, I have been before.

Well, this is a new low.

Good luck on sorting out the mess.

Did someone go through the front windshield or did it just pop out?

FMC
glad to see you got home alright, would you please put a name on the outfitter so the rest of us can steer clear off him.
pretty lousy way to spend your money and time.

regards peter

If there's an air service involved i'd like to know who they are so I don't use them in the future. I hope you nail these a-holes to the wall.

The outfitter was Art Andreis, A&L Outdoors.

The pilot was moonlighting in his own plane. During normal working hours, he works for 40 Mile Air, they picked me up and did a good job, no complaints with them.

FMC, ypu are a better man than me. I would have probably shot somebody over this.

I would notify 40 mile air about this immediately. The owner of 40 mile has one of the best reputation in the state of Alaska and I do not think that he would put up with this pilot. Do it now.

Get a lawyer, get it on record NOW, everywhere you can. Don't put it off one more day. Record all you can think of in a journal, make copies of your pictures. After a few days you will normally begin to remember more details. Try very hard to remember your exact words, their responses in their own words as best you can. Yes, I would guess they will try to reduce their responsability by making you partly at fault. DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN. Get details on record now, with the help of a lawyer, with every government entity you can. Don't let anyone deflect responsability for this mess. Oh,just so you know, I am NOT a big fan of lawyers, nor do I place great trust in gov't organizations..but your start with the FAA was the right 1st step. Get well soon/ Chaz

First, which direction were you taking off? From the pics, it looks like there was a lot of room even after the strip on the tundra. Did the plane have tundra tires? They would appear to as very large balloon like tires. Also, it's absolutely the obligation of the pilot to determine the safety of flight, not that of the passenger. Regardless of whether you needed to get out of there or not, it's ultimately up to the pilot to make the "go"/"no go" decision and he is legally fully responsible for all aspects of the flight from fuel on board, to baggage to loading, to whether or not to attempt the takeoff. The outfitter is lucky you were not hurt in the crash. Also, failure to report an incident such as this is a very serious matter with the Feds.

Unbelievable!!

Canuck

This should be good!

Glad no one was killed, or more seriously hurt.

so,what could they have possibly thought you did to cause a crash?

FMC:

A few thoughts.

It sounds like a rotten trip, however the most important thing is safety and survival and you did live thru it, good on you for that.

you do not have x ray eyes , re: your broken ankle. However, when a Dr. tells you i think it is broken, especially when it is his ankle he is talking about. more than likely, he will be right.

would love to know who the outfitter was, p.m. me if necessary. where did this happen?

sounds like you have already had good advice on how to proceed and which agencies to contact. again, good on you.

glad you tuffed it out and kept hunting. shows tenacity, maybe some stupidity as well.

the F.A.A. will be on this like stink on poop.

photos are worth a thousand words, they will help a lot. again, good on you.

i agree with joel, likely either over weight or poor aircraft maintenance are to blame. the poor condition of the strip shows the poor judgement of the pilot. not immediately reporting the crash is another big no no, especially with a client on board with a broken ankle.

what kind of co. does not get the client out of the field first. client safety always comes first. especially, since you were in need of medical attention. the guide board will be interested in that.

i just went thru this with another co.. my guide had a flight to make, i did not. i wanted the guide to fly out first. the outfitter would have none of it, in fact he waited for 2 hours at the strip for me and the ast. guide, so i could leave first. that is how a well run co. operates.

quote:

Originally posted by EB:
First, which direction were you taking off? From the pics, it looks like there was a lot of room even after the strip on the tundra. Did the plane have tundra tires? They would appear to as very large balloon like tires. Also, it's absolutely the obligation of the pilot to determine the safety of flight, not that of the passenger. Regardless of whether you needed to get out of there or not, it's ultimately up to the pilot to make the "go"/"no go" decision and he is legally fully responsible for all aspects of the flight from fuel on board, to baggage to loading, to whether or not to attempt the takeoff. The outfitter is lucky you were not hurt in the crash. Also, failure to report an incident such as this is a very serious matter with the Feds.

Yes I made a point of contacting the NTSB and the FAA. I have prepared and e-mailed a memorandum of record, which once in their hands becomes a public document and I will post accordingly.

The photo of the strip shows the mud after they started pumping off water and dropping loads of gravel. We took off toward the opposite direction. There was 300 feet of tundra available to abort.

Leif (one of the owners) is the pilot who actually picked me up. He told the outfitter "the strip still looks like bad," and "I told you last week when I dropped in your wife you needed to work on this strip."

What casued the crash?
1. mud on the strip
2. overweight (16 gallons too much fuel [only deeded 8 gallons to get back to Tok, not 25])
3. FROST/ICE on the wings ( 5*F and fog)

As I said as soon as the FAA get's the memorandum I will publish it.

why were they blaming you?

FMC;

standing by for p.m.

Just for fun a few more pics.

Heres a search engine throught he NTSB. You can look up just about any flying company for there past accidents.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

FMC;

you are lucky to have survived that.

What is your weight?

weight of your gear on board?

weight of any other cargo, if any?

approx' weight of the pilot?

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
why were they blaming you?

Because I had to get home. I was overdue by two days already- I needed to get home ASAP because of hospital coverage issues. While the planes were grounded, and while stuck in a tent I told my guide I just have to get home.

Of course PIC is the bottom line: Pilot In Command.......I begged to leave the night before and was vetoed b/c of PIC, I guess we shoulda left ( no Ice then- could see clouds)

Me: 236# gear 67# (that one I'm not sure, but it was under 70#), pilot I dunno 200#, no cargo

As I said above: outfitter was A&L Outdoors, Art Andreis. Haven't gotten to the guide board yet.....

I had to re e-mail my Memo as the FAA agent asked for it to change from a .wpd type of document. As soon as he receives it I will publish.

FMC:

Glad your o.k.

I would definitely get a lawyer. The meetings they had in the cabin while you were outside......... probably concocting some story about you going ballistic in the plane and causing all of this.
Wouldn't put it past them.

Serial Number 18-7809113 Type Registration Individual
Manufacturer Name PIPER Certificate Issue Date 01/14/2002
Model PA-18-150 Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 52631624
MFR Year 1978 Fractional Owner NO



Registered Owner

Name KNAEBEL ZACHARY
Street PO BOX 857
City TOK State ALASKA Zip Code 99780-0857
County SE FAIRBANKS DIV
Country UNITED STATES



Airworthiness


Engine Manufacturer LYCOMING Classification Standard
Engine Model 0-320 SERIES Category Normal
Utility

A/W Date 05/08/1978

Temporary Certificate

Certificate Number T020268 Issue Date 01/14/2002
Expiration Date 02/13/2002

Heres a search engine throught he NTSB. You can look up just about any flying company for there past accidents.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

You're a lucky dude to have survived that little adventure! Sounds like a "Deliverance" experience. FAA & NTSB will fry those guys.

Glad you are alright. Pictures, statements, and lawyers are a good idea--I don't think you have been treated right.

I personally would avoid going out of my way to be too much of an asshole. Trying to get anyone's license of any sort pulled isn't your job....let the agencies that deal with them sort it out, and provide info as asked. If you get seen as someone who will go out of their way to screw folks (even though you have been wronged this time) it won't help you in the future.

Just my $.02.

Hope the leg heals up well.

Dan

FMC,

Unbelievable!

Glad you are ok and hope the ankle mends quick.

Best Regards,
Dave

From what Alex posted, I guess this guy doesnt believe in doing annuals.

I'm pretty sure he will be paying for it though.

From what Alex posted, the aircraft should not have been in the air, let alone carrying passengers. That would explain a lot of the secret discussions.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
From what Alex posted, the aircraft should not have been in the air, let alone carrying passengers. That would explain a lot of the secret discussions.

I don't understand. Can you explain please?

I'm not sure, but that "certificate" in question might have been a temporary air taxi certificate, not an annual. Like I said, I'm not sure.

Either way, he shouldn't have been shuttling paying passengers.

An airworthiness certificate certifies that an aircraft is safe to fly. It is issued only after an inspection. If I recall correctly, they do not expire provided the operator keeps to the required maintenance schedule and makes any modifications required by directive and has the work duly logged. It is my understanding that they are transferrable when ownership changes hands.

I am not sure what they mean by a temporary certificate. It could be for a lost original, or it could be for some issue related to airworthiness.

It is one thing to put your own neck on the line by ignoring the rules (which can still get you into a ton of trouble), but it is quite another thing to use an aircraft not deemed to be airworthy to ferry passengers.

I would be very interested to hear if the aircraft lapsed out of airworthiness in the first place. Was it invloved in an accident before? Was there some safety issue that grounded it? Whatever it was, as far as the FAA is concerned the issue was never corrected or addressed and the aircraft was not fit to fly. And flying a passenger in such a plane may involve some criminal violations - it is certainly reckless endangerment in my book.

That's at least my understanding. I am sure some of the professional pilots here will chime in and correct anything I have screwed up.

I think FMC is one lucky dude. I'm glad they are all okay, as that hard lesson (for the pilot) could have turned out much worse.