By the time Ben Forbes passed away he had been on over 450 brown bear kills . Started guiding out of Sitka in the 30s . I would say he was more experienced . No doubt he had killed and seen lots and lots of bears with the 06. As that is the cart he started guiding with. But ahfter a big p.od bear pushed him and his client out into Deadmans Reach till they were up to their armpits. Before turning and taking off up into the brush. He decided he needed a bigger rifle. And reccomended his clients use a 375.
If the 06 works so good , then why do most guides rely on something ALOT bigger ?????? .
The obvious reason is because it doesn't work all that great. I can't see that it works any better than a mid velocity 6.5 . Just a little bit better than a bow and arrow. Now , if a person has to rely on spineing a bear to keep it in one place then I still don't see the 06 as being much . A 270 or 6.5 will work every bit as well.

I don't think this thread was about the aught six being the best for bear....
It works just fine for bear. It's not what I'd label as a "back up" gun just based off my preference and the vast amount of other options out there. I wouldn't hesitate to stick those bullets into any brownie but if I've got an gun safe of options...I'm going big and heavy. Because I can't think of a reason not to.

Ok. Great. Were on at least the same chapter .
Put it this way , if I had to choose between a 308/30-06 with a stout bullet and a 12 guage shotgun to stop a bear or kill a bear . I would take the 30 cal bolt rifle.
But , if I had the option . I would use my 458. Or 9.3×64 , or 375 Whelan A.I. in that order. And I wouldn't have many qualms using my 6.5 Creedmoor with a 130 gr TSX or 140 gr SAF. . But with that I would use cns hits. Having gotten somewhere around 45" of straight line penetration thru a caribou bull at 300 yards with that load . Im confident it would have enough snoose to smash vertebrae ect.

The thread started out asking if the 30-06 was enough for bear hunting and generations of guides and bear hunter have pretty well proven it is ! My opinion is summed up in my tag line.

Everyone is free to use whatever floats their boat as any centerfire rifle is legal in Alaska.

If someone offered me a free guided brown bear hunt on the condition I'd have to use my 270 with 150g Partitions, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That being said I hit my little almost 9 footer with a 300g A-Frame perfectly at 13 yards and he took several minutes to die (I was listening to him with my guide). Might bring my 500 Jeffery next time lol

Best to you all

140gr nosler and my 270 win put my first brown bear on my wall. No issues. Worked great.

In the P & T book, Last of the Brown Bear Men. Morris Tallifson stated that he killed his largest bear, an almost 12 footer with a Winchester 94 in 30-30. I am positive a 30-06 with a partition will get the job done if properly placed. That said, I like my 50 Alaskan with 535 grain Woodleighs, but then, I am a rookie and don't have the experience of the rest of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
140gr nosler and my 270 win put my first brown bear on my wall. No issues. Worked great.

Ditto's, and now days Nosler is making 160 gr partitions which is what i use in my 270 win. Which has about the same SD as a 30cal 200 gr partition which equates to superb penetration.

Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

That was my thought, probably a several shot situation. Certainly a 30-06 was a big gun in the 1940's.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

That was my thought, probably a several shot situation. Certainly a 30-06 was a big gun in the 1940's.

So was the .375

Well lots of bear were killed in the good ole days with small caliber muzzle loaders. My granddad shot a couple of Mexican Grizzlys with his 38-40 Win and factory ammo..The Mexican Grizzley isn't as big as its northern brother, but big enough. He also shot an unknown number of elk..He didn't seem to think anything about it, just another days work..got close and shot stuff in the neck or head as a rule. I shot a reall big black bear and several elk with my 25-35, caliber isn't the recipe for killing, getting close and making a good shot is..

The problem is with ultra light calibers like the 38-40 and 25-35 is you will have to pass up animals that you could have shot with an 06 for instance, if you don't you will have a long tracking job.

Just dawned on me how old this thread is!! but nothing changed since 2003..06 still kills brown bear, some caliber are better if you can shoot them.

It's been sucessfully killing big bears for over a 100 years and with today's bullets and powder is better than ever.
What more needs to be said ?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

That was my thought, probably a several shot situation. Certainly a 30-06 was a big gun in the 1940's.

So was the .375

But, alot of guys , guides included couldnt afford a 375. But many of them , as soon as athey could , did . And never looked back.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

That was my thought, probably a several shot situation. Certainly a 30-06 was a big gun in the 1940's.

So was the .375

But, alot of guys , guides included couldnt afford a 375. But many of them , as soon as athey could , did . And never looked back.

And that, wanting something more than an 06 for Bears without breaking the bank, was specifically why the 35 Whelen was conceived. I wouldnt care to argue the point with the old sourdoughs who drew that conclusion either. I know an 06 will get the job done, and still does on bears all the time. Im a big 06 fan. BUT! One time that it wasnt enough vs a Bear is all it takes.. Just sayin, bears can be pretty nasty on a bad day.. I know I would feel better with a little more than an 06 against them, especially coastal Grizz.

It seems after all this the question was: is the .30-06 enough for bear and the answer is yes. There are countless examples to verify that.

Whether there are better choices is a separate question.

Cougar; agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Most of the time it took lots of bullets from the 30/30 to kill those bears. And they started when the bears were a ways away.
One of the big things that doesn't get talked about concerning some guides rifle cartridge selection. The rifles had to be in a cart that was available as factory or surplus ammo. So the 06 , 303 British, 30/40 Krag were used because they were available. Back in the days when trappers used snowshoes and sled dogs , miners used picks and shovels, trollers used oars,sail,steam or Naptha. And loggers used axes, misery whips, gravity , jacks and the tide.
It wasnt that those rifles were great . But they were a rifle. When the options were things like a 25/20, 32/20, 25/30, 30/30 ect a 30/06 was a big dang gun.

That was my thought, probably a several shot situation. Certainly a 30-06 was a big gun in the 1940's.

So was the .375

But, alot of guys , guides included couldnt afford a 375. But many of them , as soon as athey could , did . And never looked back.

And that, wanting something more than an 06 for Bears without breaking the bank, was specifically why the 35 Whelen was conceived. I wouldnt care to argue the point with the old sourdoughs who drew that conclusion either. I know an 06 will get the job done, and still does on bears all the time. Im a big 06 fan. BUT! One time that it wasnt enough vs a Bear is all it takes.. Just sayin, bears can be pretty nasty on a bad day.. I know I would feel better with a little more than an 06 against them, especially coastal Grizz.

The very first 35 Whelan I ever saw/held was a converted 98 Mauser with an ER Shaw barrel on it. The rifle was built in the mid 70s iirc . My friend that had it built introduced it to me as a (poor mans 375 )
Back then and there , Sitka , a 375 was in the loacl vernacular, a 375 H&H . I first saw it in 85 or 86 and was young and tough so I skipped all the middle ground and put together a 458 Winchester.
Now I find that I Really like the 375 Whelan A.I. I got this past fall. It was built in 72 or 73 . But I was the first to blood it. It pushes a 250 gr TTSX @ 2550 fps with just 56 gr of 4895 . Not bad for a 19" barrel. I don't know how much I'm giving up to the H&H as that is generally the velocity of a 300 gr bullet. But I'm thinking not too much compared to bullets like the Interlock, Corelokt, ect.
Sorry for the derail.

quote:

But I was the first to blood it. It pushes a 250 gr TTSX @ 2550 fps with just 56 gr of 4895 . Not bad for a 19" barrel.

Sounds like a lot of dead critters.

Just 1 so far. Earlier this winter.

Size of the animal seems to be the answer or at least partially...I killed a couple of Giraffes with the 30-06 and that's a heavier animal than any bear or Buffalo, and it killed them well..I have killed a Cape buffalo with a 30-06 and half a dozed on an old cull with a borrowed 7mm milsurp Mauser and old milsurp green ugly ammo..Wasn't ideal but got it done..so I agree that sticking a "properly constructed" bullet in the right spot is more important than the caliber used, been saying that for years on this forum.. But If your chosen bullet isn't up to the job for the caliber used, it just may not make any difference where you stick it..I have not seen that mentioned in this thread...Its important..I've seen some real screw up with light high velocity bullets on heavy animals..Ive also seen solids fail when used in smaller calibers, they need mass and a big hole in the barrel to be real effective, as a rule..

In this sort of bloviating keep in mind that nothing is written in stone and fate can play a hand at any time under all circumstances.

Your right Ray. I'de rather ise a 200 gr TSX out of an 06 @ 2600 fps mv than a 350 gr Hornady rnsp out of a 458 Winchester @ any velocity on anything !!!!!! Same with the 400 gr Speer fnsn. Or the .025k" jacketed Barnes 400 gr rnsp at 2400 fps. One time I litterly blew about a 90 lbs deer in half with that load. Note to self, never believe a gun trader when he tells me the bullets are .049k" jacketed. Really pissed me off cause I had just got done backin down a real pissed of bear at less than 25' while hiding behind that bullet.

I shot an Eland a number of times with a Hawk bullet, the heavy jacket in my .338 and they came apart, not only on eland but some other lesser PG..almost total jacket separation on every thing, then again with the 7x57..

The Hawks worked to perfection in my 45-70 and later in my 45-90..Im still using them in my 38-40..They seem to be designed for slow velocity, but by design they are an old school bullet with expansion controlled by pure lead and soft copper so velocity is their enemy IMO...

I suggested to Hawk that they solder their cores and they were indignant..oh well..

My go to rifle is a 300 Win Mag shooting 180 gn Sciroccos. I've shot moose, most of the African plains game and a few Black bears with this set up. The only animal that took a couple follow ups was a huge Eland Bull. I've always wondered how this bullet would hold up on a big Grizz.

My BB Outfitter would not allow me to take a 30.06 on the hunt. I wanted to take it since I had a lot of confidence with it and experience with it and felt that shot placement wins over caliber size. I also did not want the expense of buying another rifle that would receive little future use, instead of using one on hand that I had lots of experience with, as opposed to NO experience with a new larger caliber rifle.

So, I was able to find a good deal on a lightly used .300 Weatherby Magnum. I felt due to the much larger case capacity and hitting power, that this combo would do fine. Once I put a Swarovski scope on it and had the barrel ported and then zeroed it in with Weatherby ammo I called said Outfitter and this time was told no .30 cal rifles.

I then bought a new .340 Weatherby and put yet another Swarovski on it and successfully used that to take my B.&C. Brown Bear. While the recoil was much greater with this set up, it was largely negated by the rifle being 3 lbs heavier than the .30-06 I wanted to take, the recoil was not a factor. The .340 was also at least 3" longer in overall length and was barrel heavy and a pain in the neck to carry all day. It did hit like Thor's hammer coming out of the heavens in all fairness.

For those with access to hand loads I do feel that an .06 with 200 Gr. Premium ammo is without doubt up to the task, provided the shooter does his job.

Anyone know of any Premium factory .30-06 load with .200 Grain bullets ? Prefer no TBBC.

CZ; I don't know if they still offer it . but, Remington used to load the 200 gr Swift A Frame in their Premium Safari line . Thats what I kept in my wife's 06 when we lived at 8 Fathom. . Do I understand correctly that you Don't want to shoot Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets ? . I REALLY like the Federal High Energy 375 H+H 300 gr TBBC Ammo. It was like an instant rechamber to 375 Whby/A.I./RUM. and that from a 23" barrel . extremely accurate in the rifle I shot it in . Consistently chronographed @ 2700 fps @ around 20' from the muzzle. Low e.s. and s.d. also.
Iirc the 200 gr Rem A Frame ammo was going around 2550 fps from the Ruger Ultra Light. But I only ran a couple shots over the chrony.

Years ago, I went on a two week trip Deer hunting in Oregon Applegate area and then up to Kodiak for a week deer/duck hunt there. My friend, who was a very experienced hunter and good shot wound 3 deer in two states on that trip and recover none of them.

On Kodiak, I actually saw from a distance him shoot the Buck in the chest drop it and before he could reload it was up and running down hill into the brush only to be found by the bears. He was using a .270 with 130 gr TBBC. After that trip, I got him to switch to 150 NP and he had no more issues with animals getting away.

I would not use TBBC ammo if I had it for free.

My favorite factory ammo is the old now discontinued Federal High Energy .30-06 180 NP. Boy, I got one shot kills with that like no bodys business. No animal likes to be shot in the neck with that round. A real shame it is no longer available. I do still have a little bit of it left. Flat shooting and hard hitting.

I dont know why more co don't offer factory ammo in 200 Gr. I think it would sell.

Agree that the 150g Partition at 2900 plus fps out of a 270 is about a good as it gets for that cartridge. I've been shooting that bullet at just over 3000 fps from my BDL in 270 for 40 years and it's a stone killer.

Too many think that the old round nose 220 gr 30/06 load is the way to go above 180 gr. But there are very few 220 gr 308 bullets that are tough enough . Where as there are several 200 gr bullets in 308 that are as tough as any bullet made. I've never been too keen on N.P.s preferring, Barnes , Swift, TBBC, ect.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
IMHO Re; caliber selection for brown bears. The hunter should be reminded that his bear is liable to be just as deadly as a man eating tiger, only three times as big.
These aren't black bears. A certain percentage of brown bears, or grizzlies would rather kill you than run the other way. Most of the time they would rather avoid man, but sometimes they just have a grouch on, and it is absolutely incredible how fast they can be. Making it very difficult to place a well aimed shot just exactly where you want to.
I killed my brown bear with a 375 WB. One brown bear, so I'm by no means an expert.

I'm just telling you really honestly, none of us up here with any amount of experience around these bears think of them in any way as like a man eating tiger or being interested in killing us rather than running the other way.

As to the -06, theres quite a few bears killed around here with the cartridge and it usually seems to work fine.

I SAID LIABLE TO BE. It's not unusual for someone to be killed by a bear. Even a black bear. They both possess the necessary tools to do great bodily harm to a person.

Black bear killings used to be unusual.....not so much anymore!

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
Black bear killings used to be unusual.....not so much anymore!

I'm sure better communication plays a big part in it.......

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Too many think that the old round nose 220 gr 30/06 load is the way to go above 180 gr. But there are very few 220 gr 308 bullets that are tough enough . Where as there are several 200 gr bullets in 308 that are as tough as any bullet made. I've never been too keen on N.P.s preferring, Barnes , Swift, TBBC, ect.

I,

On the other hand I have had wonderful luck with every Nosler Partition I have ever used, or even seen used. And my all time favorite bullet for any 30 caliber, from the 308 to the 300 magnums is the Nosler 200 Partition

Yup, alot of guys have had great success with them and really like them . No doubt they are miles ahead of the old round nose cup and core 308 bullets . And possibly as good as any bullet made. I've used a few NPs, they worked. I still prefer Barnes, Swift, Trophy Bonded . Ect.
It seems the old cup and core 215-220 gr 30 cal bullets worked great at 303 British and 30/40 Krag velocities. The 06 had enough more speed that they didn't hold together very well.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
IMHO Re; caliber selection for brown bears. The hunter should be reminded that his bear is liable to be just as deadly as a man eating tiger, only three times as big.
These aren't black bears. A certain percentage of brown bears, or grizzlies would rather kill you than run the other way. Most of the time they would rather avoid man, but sometimes they just have a grouch on, and it is absolutely incredible how fast they can be. Making it very difficult to place a well aimed shot just exactly where you want to.
I killed my brown bear with a 375 WB. One brown bear, so I'm by no means an expert.

I'm just telling you really honestly, none of us up here with any amount of experience around these bears think of them in any way as like a man eating tiger or being interested in killing us rather than running the other way.

As to the -06, theres quite a few bears killed around here with the cartridge and it usually seems to work fine.

I SAID LIABLE TO BE. It's not unusual for someone to be killed by a bear. Even a black bear. They both possess the necessary tools to do great bodily harm to a person.

Not unusual? The weather kills more Americans than bears.

I'm aware of what you wrote, I read and comprehend quite well, and no I don't agree with your statement nor do I believe experienced people do either.

I'm in bear country right now. After I type this I'll head back outside and in less than half a dozen steps be mixing my foot prints with last nights bear prints and no, I don't consider the bear that left those prints just as deadly as a man eating tiger nor, "LIABLE TO BE" as you say.

These bears are like poison oak. Just watch where you walk or drop your drawers to go number two and you'll be fine.

Swampshooter

What Scott said. I lived up the road a couple miles from where he lives for many years. There were brown bears in my yard most nights from June to Oct as the town dump was only a half mile as the crow flies from my house. I don't think Sadie or I ever felt in much danger. When you live around bears 24/7 they don't seem nearly as fearsome. We worked at the regional Indian Health Care Hospital in Dillingham. In our 19 years working there one patient was admitted with wounds incurred from a bear attack.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Swampshooter

What Scott said. I lived up the road a couple miles from where he lives for many years. There were brown bears in my yard most nights from June to Oct as the town dump was only a half mile as the crow flies from my house. I don't think Sadie or I ever felt in much danger. When you live around bears 24/7 they don't seem nearly as fearsome. We worked at the regional Indian Health Care Hospital in Dillingham. In our 19 years working there one patient was admitted with wounds incurred from a bear attack.

Mark

Agreed, you get real used to them when you live among them.

I lived where Mark references and Scott still lives. I now live in Anchorage and have very regular visits on my property from Black Bears and the occasional Brown Bear.

Most bear have zero interest in you as a food source. They are all about reward vs. expenditure of energy. Humans, for the most part, are trouble for bears so they will avoid you when possible.

That said we have had two predation attacks and deaths on humans by Black Bears this year.

I regularly carry when I hike.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

That said we have had two predation attacks and deaths on humans by Black Bears this year.

And a couple mauling's from the brown haired types also.

Bears are not a problem until they are.

Back to the topic a 30-06 with a good bullet placed in the proper spot well kill any bear walking.

We just keep this thread alive so Phil has another chance to re-post that picture of his beautiful and lively 30-06 and that beautiful and dead monster bear!