Hey All,

After reviewing the " Data " in the " Safety in Bear Country " tech Report .. !

" We selected a distance of 15 yards as the " point of no return " - the distance at which an obviously aggrassive bear must be stopped or a person risks personal injury or death... "

I’m a bit perplex " Why ", the “ Shotgun Slug “ scored so low (26) ??

The “ 458 Winchester Rank # 1 “, with both the 375 H&H & the 338 scoring very high.

Now,take a look at how many inches both the “ 375 & 338 “ penetration 14.2 – 16.8 (Chart Table 1 ; pg# 5)
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

375 H&H: Ranked (3/5/10): Based on load & Bullet tested.
338 Win Mag: Ranked (4/6/7/8/9): Based on load & Bullet tested.

12-ga x 2 3/4 inch: Ranked (26) : Peneration (15.3 inches): Barrel Length (20)

Large-Caliber Magnum Rifle(pg#4)
Cartridges.458 Winchester Magnum. –
In overall ballistic performance, the .458 ranked first. Bullet penetration was the deepest of all the cartridges tested – average depth, 19 inches. Striking energy was 79 percent of the .460 Weatherby (ranked second), part of which may be attributed to the extra 10 gr of bullet weight in the .458. The bullet expanded well (4.6 times) and retained 82 percent of the unfired weight….

Shotgun Cartridge: (pg# 10/11)
12-Gauge x 2 3/4 Inch Chamber. –
The variety, rapid-fire potential, and reasonable prices of 12-gauge repeating shotguns with short barrels and the impressive appearance of the l-ounce (438-gr) rifled slug have made this combination popular as a weapon against bears. The slide-action shotgun with a short barrel is relatively light and compact, has good pointing characteristics and a large magazine capacity, and can be fired rapidly. Recoil was similar to that of weapons firing small-caliber magnum rifle cartridges. In our tests, the 12-gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion. *** The lack of bullet expansion is somewhat misleading. *** The unfired rifled slug is 0.672 inch in diameter (0.355in2 area); the 1.7x expansion ratio increases this to a cross-sectional area of 0.62 square inch, which is only slightly smaller than that of the expanded bullets of the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby magnum rifle cartridges. The penetration of the rifled slug was good (15.3inches), and only 4 percent of the unfired weight was lost….


Summary of Technical Data:
1.) The “ Shotgun Slug “ didn’t expand & it was only slightly less than the diameter of an expanded “ 458 Bullet “.
(HMMM … That sounds like a good thing to me !)

2.) The “ Shotgun Slug “ penetrated as well as 94 % (six were slightly better) of the Rifle Cartridges, which ranked higher. (review pg #5)

Conclusions:
Based on the information provided by the “ U.S Forestry Service “.. I wouldn’t hesitate carrying (using) my “ Vangcomp, Remington 870 Combat Shotgun“, as a “ Protective Measure, against Bears or Mountain Lions, at short ranges with Shotgun Slugs ", while I was out enjoying myself,Hiking,Flyfishing or Camping.. And using something with better performance in a " SHOTGUN SLUG " (** DIXIE SLUGS **)


0- 25+ yards: Dixie Predator II / TUSKERS; .727" dia- 600 gr / TERMINATOR ;.730†-730 gr / or Tri-Balls.

" If " I were out " HUNTING ", just swap out my Smoothbore for the " Hastings 20 inch Rifled Barrel w/Leupold 1-4x20mm Shotgun Scope "

(0-100 + YARDS)

One Firearm (Shotgun); So many options !

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=39309&page=1&pp=15

PAPI

Why use a 12ga slug/brenneke for bear defens when a 9,3 x 62 and up with a expanding bullet will do much more damage to the animal??


//OK

Hi,

1. I already own a " Custom Combat 12 ga Shotgun , along w/ a Rifled Barrel".

2. I would only trust my life with the " ** DIXIE ** " products, period !
The " Brenneke " might work for someone else ?

3. I'm very comfortable using the " Pump Action Rem 12 ga. 870 ".
I've been shooting/handling one for over 25 years.

4. With all of the " Homeland Security Issue's ".. I can transport my " Shotgun & Two Barrels " inside of my " Waller Travel Bag ", almost anywhere in the " USA ", without raising tooooo much concern or attention from the " Local Authorities ".
In particular .. I'm legally with " FISHING & HUNTING LICENSE/PERMIT's, etc ", which I always carry with me in my home state.

5. And finally, for all of the reason's explained in the " Test " results ( a, b, c ), with the exception of the " * SLUG USED * ": March 1983 ; Safety in Bear Country Test. The " DIXIE's SLUGS " are a much better choice today, with better penetration @ .727 -.730 dia. & 600 Grain or 730 Grain Slugs.... !

a) " The variety, rapid-fire potential, and reasonable prices of 12-gauge repeating shotguns with short barrels and the impressive appearance of the * l-ounce (438-gr) rifled slug * have made this combination popular as a weapon against bears. The slide-action shotgun with a short barrel is relatively light and compact, has good pointing characteristics and a large magazine capacity, and can be fired rapidly. Recoil was similar to that of weapons firing small-caliber magnum rifle cartridges. In our tests, the 12-gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion. *** The lack of bullet expansion is somewhat misleading. *** The unfired rifled slug is 0.672 inch in diameter (0.355in2 area); the 1.7x expansion ratio increases this to a cross-sectional area of 0.62 square inch, which is only slightly smaller than that of the expanded bullets of the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby magnum rifle cartridges. The penetration of the rifled slug was good(15.3inches), and only 4 percent of the unfired weight was lost�. "

b)dixieslugs.com/products

c)shootersforum

p.s. My 2nd choice would be my " 45/70 " using " ** Garrets Hammerhead Cartridges ** ".
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
" Why do we recommend our 540-grain 45-70 ammo for close-quarters work against grizzly instead of our 420-grain ammo? The stress experienced by a bullet upon impact is the product of the toughness of the target and the speed of impact. Therefore, when engaging an extremely tough target at close-quarters, such as a heavy coastal grizzly or buffalo, reliable power is best achieved by lowering velocity and increasing bullet weight. This insures that impact velocity is not excessive, which can overwhelm even the toughest alloy. Although well suited to grizzly defense, our 420-grainer with its .330" meplat, higher velocity, and flatter trajectory is best deployed as a heavy game hunting round, whereas our 540-grainer with its huge .360" meplat, extreme weight, and lower velocity, is best deployed as a heavy game close-quarters stopper... "

There's been lots of " TESTING & DEVELOPMENT " done with " SUPER HARD CAST BULLETS & SHOTGUN SLUGS ".. !
Old concept , new " Bullet/Slugs ", better performance

PAPI

. This ? was hammered out last year . And I am still in my self impossed moritorium on talking about killin bears , ,,, Do a search from last fall sometime , lots of info .....

The posting of the Forest Service tests reminded me that one of its authors, John Thilenius, preferred a Marlin 45/70 for his personal walking in the bear woods defense gun. Even though it didn't make it in the top 15. He preferred it for its handling characteristics, (rapid fire) and balance of good striking power. Full length magazine and without the push button safety.

I am suprised you guys haven't mentioned this yet. How about some fancy smith out there build a 4 bore pump.

I saw a picture, somewhere, of some guys fishing and the guide was standing by with what looked like a Mossberg 18 1/2" barrel, pistol grip shotgun on a sling.

A nice compact Bear gun, bigger than a pistol, but smaller than a rifle.

Given a choice, I will take the Mossberg over a .44 any day.

Anyone who has ever tried to cut down a small tree with a shotgun (I was a curious child) knows the close up ability of a shotgun, with just about any shell.

I have shot deer and wild pig and my wife shot a wild pig with shotgun slugs and I was not impressed.

We were not using Brennekes, and if I had to use a SGN for bear protection that is what I would use.

I would much rather have my Winchester 44 Magnum Tracker, with 300gr Federal Cast Core, or a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun.

However if YOU are doing the fishing, then any kind of long gun will be WORTHLESS.

After less than an hour of fishing, the long gun will be laying on the ground as it is just too much of a burden to fish AND CARRY a long gun.

Best slouting IMHO is to WEAR a 4" 44 Mag revolver.

If you want to have a long gun "nearby" that is a good idea too.

However, you may never know you have a bear problem till you are face down, with him chewing on your head.

Wendell, I have seen many people try and use a pistol grip shotgun, most of them could not commit suicide in a phone booth with one.

However, they are pretty handy for "blowing" dead bolts amd hinges on doors when making a quick entry, but I would rather have a 4" 44 to keep a bear off of me.

That makes sense to me, most shotguns are too heavy and bulky to tote around.

When bears start to fly, then I'll consider a shotgun suitable.

If you're going to carry a long gun, then carry a rifle. A 338 mag is more gun than the most impressive 12 ga load, and more accurate, and there are much bigger rifles available.

And a handgun in your hand, beats a rifle or shotgun leaning against a rock.

Having owned some guns much larger than a 338 and having shot bears with a 338 I still don't have a problem carrying my SxS 12ga with the solid slugs for a hiking gun, plus it oddly will shoot both barrels to the same point of impact at 40 yds (it earned a set of sights). Shotguns like rifles are very subject to what kind of projectiles are being used. Foster style slugs are very poor penetrators, buckshot at ranges beyond hand shaking distances is a waste. A single 00 buckshot weights about 60 grains as I remember and at 1200-1500 fps is a projectile if used by itsself would be used for rabbits. Just because you have 9-12 of them doesn't improve their penetration. Check with your local fish and feathers rep about how many buckshot pellets are removed from the hides of bears and you may have a better idea of their lack of performance. Bears, no - entry gun, yes. If you choose a shotgun for bear protection get a heavy solid slug and stay away from the foster style slugs and buckshot.
For those that would rather have a 44 mag than a shotgun, consider that a 20ga slug weighing 5/8oz = 273gr at 1500fps is over 250fps faster than Remingtons 275gr 44mag hunting load! I'll bet that I can shoot a pump shotgun faster and more accurately than a 44 pistol with full loads. The 44 does have one distinct advantage over the longer guns. Once the bear has your leg in its mouth, its easier to get the gun muzzle on the side of the bears head. There the pistol works nicely.
The "Bear loads" that some small ammo manufacturers are putting out for the 44 and 454 are so hot that you have to look for a rock to hit the ejector rod with to get the empties out. Just hope you don't need to reload anytime soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
When bears start to fly, then I'll consider a shotgun suitable.

Now that's funny.

Last week I hit a javelina 3 times with OO buck at close(4-8 yds) range, and he was still coming when the dogs latched on to him. Lots of mud and blood and flopping around at one's feet.Buck shot at point-blank skin level finished it, but I would have rather had any 30+cal rifle. Thank God for dogs. Bears would likely be worse.

Hi all,

There seems to be a very consistant comment such as:

" but I would have rather had any 30+cal rifle "

OKAY.. !
I completely understand & whole heartedly agree

Remington 12. ga 870 " Rifled Barrel "
Dixie Terminator: Hard Cast " BULLET "; .730 dia. ; 730 grain ; 1200 fps
Dixie Tusker: Hard Cast " BULLET "; .727 dia. ; 600 grain ; 1550 fps

The last " Slug " is a Winchester 2 3/4 1 oz.


The " RIFLED BARREL (Hasting )& REMINGTON 870 " has now been converted (without a hefty Gunsmith fee)into a:
"REMINGTON 870 LARGE CALIBER (.730 /.727) PUMP ACTION RIFLE ", using modern day " HARD CAST BULLETS " .. !

I'm not trying to critize anyones opinion.. However, this seems to be a very simple concept to visualize ..

" Penetration Test
Went to the John Linebaugh Seminar and penetration test this week end and saw some interesting results. A 416 Rigby 410 grain Federal Factory load round nose solid penetrated 46".

The 475 Linebaugh with 425 grain Buffalo Bore Factory load went 49", 1400 + Fps. The 500 Linebaugh 525 grain Buffalo Bore load at 1097 fps penetrated 50".

The 50 Alaskan Revolver with the 525 grain Buffalo Bore load at a clocked 1570 fps went 51". The 500 Linebaugh with a 450 grain punch bullet at 1280 FPS + or - penetrated 51".The 500 JRH 425 grain factory load at 1380 + or _ went 50".

The 416 Rigby Federal factory loaded 400 grain Nosler partion went 30" in the test.

NOW THE MOST DEVASTATING LOAD TESTED, the one that rocked the test box the most and the one that blew about a 4" diameter wound channel and penetrated 28" was a Dixie slug 730 grain at 1200 fps IMPRESSIVE to say the least.

I will be getting a spread sheet together and post more results in a week or so..as can be seen these big bore revolvers with less speed penetrate with the big rifles..........and the wound channel was larger......... "
http://www.dixieslugs.com/Testim.html

p.s: The Dixie " Tuskers " will work in a smoothbore .. at closer ranges,i.e.: (0-25+ yards).

PAPI

I'd like to see a phot comparison of the wound channel from the handgun hard cast rounds, the slug rounds, and a 350 gr TSX @ 2600 fps from a 416.

You might check the " Beartooth Forum "(jwp475 Beartooth Regular).

http://www.shootersforum.com/

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=26647

He (jwp475) might have posted some additional information regarding his penetration test results(05-15-2007) & photos ??

PAPI

The Ruger M77 Hawkeye chambered in .375 Ruger is perfect.

I keep this thing in the tent -



I sleep better in bear country with this in the tent.

Hey all,

Just a few photos of a " RANGE TEST ", conducted by an average Joe !! ( ME ).


8/23/08 : 16.6 yards (50 feet) 8 inch dia. Black Bull. : 6 O'clock hold/point of aim.

BEAR PROTECTION:
" We selected a distance of 15 yards as the " point of no return " - the distance at which an obviously aggrassive bear must be stopped or a person risks personal injury or death... "


Dixie Tusker
Dixie Tri-Ball

Remington 870 12 ga.(12 Bore) : 18 Inch Cylinder Bore Barrel ; Ghost Ring Sights

PAPI