My buddy and I have been having a conversation about a hypothetical bear defense situation. If, for reasons of discussion only, you HAD to choose between three different platforms for Alaska bear defense which one would you select?

- A bolt action 30-06 loaded with your favorite projectile.

- A 45-79 Marlin Guide Rifle loaded with your favorite projectile.

- A 12 ga pump action/semi automatic shotgun loaded with your favorite projectile

For the sake of this discussion weight is not an issue and the probability of shooting a bear is high. The factors that come to my mind are penetration, energy, diameter of projectile, speed of follow up shots.

What sights/scope would you select? Any special modifications?

Bear defense only…a short range.

Which do you choose and why?

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Who put the dang "0" key right next to the "9" key??? Make that a 45-70.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

What ever one you allready own would be fine I dont have the guide gun or care for them. Nothing wrong with them, my hunting partner uses the stainless version guide gun in 45-70 and loves it. If I am hiking I take the pistol grip 870 W/18.25" bbl & slugs or 00buck.
If hunting I take a bolt rifle!

Good luck!!Merry Christmass!!!!!

I would take the 45/70 in the Marlin Guide Gun with a 350 or 400 gr premium bullet. The 350 North Fork would be my first choice.

I have hunted with a 45/70 and my brother has a Marlin Guide Gun, very handy accurate and reliable.

I would use my Blaser 375 H&H Tracker Synthentic.

Tsturm, you're easy to please! :-)

45/70 with 400 gr. bullets. No wimpy factory ammo though. It must be fed a strict diet of reloads loaded to near 450 marlin territory!

12 ga shooting 3" 600 grain Brennekke Dangerous Game Loads and open sites, 6 in the well and one in the tube.

45/70 They work so well and so fast ...Good quality bullets 350-540 gr weight as fast as they can go with a million percent reliability........ If it was me I would fix the saftey so I couldn,t accidentially put it on safe.......

Mr. 70,

I have often wondered about the penetration of slugs. Do you have any experience with these slugs or can you direct me to any articles or threads about them?

My own thought is that 600 grains is a lot of weight and a pump can put many rounds down rangt in almost no time. However, I am not certain how far the slugs would penetrate.

Thoughts?

Respectfully,
Harry

I'm with M70 on this. I don't want the slugs to go through.

*** INSTINCTS AND PSYCHOLOGY RULE ***

M70NUT , -- Is right on the money , -- IMHO . -- Must be a thinking man on this subject .

My Son , and I did a two year study on the BEST firearm response to pure Bruin-Attack . -- This included shooting Strategy , -- Shooting Technique , as well as Firearm and Cartridge . ( My son was getting ready to go to work for Alaska Fish and Game , -- where he is now employed ) .

Actually , the Choice of weapon & cartridge , is the easy part , which is not to say it ain't complex . --- But it's the Knowledge of Bear Behavior , The Strategy and Technique , -- and Yup ! , even the mental preparation , -- that's the hard part . -- It's like the Boy Scouts , -- Be Prepared .

We went all around the mill on Weapon and Cartridge . -- Full circle , two or three times . --- One big touchstone , was the experience Legacy , of African Dangerous Game Hunters , -- especially the Pro.s and the legendary ones . -- Another important touchstone , -- was Military and Law Enforcement information , concerning close-quarters fighting , at large .

Recommend two books , -- as esential reading , if you really want to get into it . -- One is James Gary Shelton's , " Bear Encounter Survival Guide " . --- The other is Massad Ayoub's , " StressFire " .

Out of much Reading , and consulting on Forums , we reached the following major conclusions :

It has to be Semi-auto , -- because the instinctive thing to do under great stress , -- is to simply pull the trigger . -- This effect , is built into your brain , and is inescapable . -- You WILL tunnel-vision if the stress is great enough . -- Your fine-motor skills , ( like the five motion working of a bolt ) , -- Will disappear .

And remember this fact , -- ANY manual action can be short-stroked , -- resulting in failure !

But the Semi-Auto must be World-Class dependable , -- by military standards !

We Chose the Beretta Xtrema II , after much research , -- and Breneke 3 inch Slugs for Power . They weigh in at 650 Gr. (?) , if I remember , -- and are awesome inside of 40 yards . --- Think THREE SHOTS OR MORE PER SECOND -- GROUPED ! -- Nothing Soft-Skinned can walk through that .

------- Got to go for now , -- More later , if it becomes controversial ,

------------- Nose To The Trail . ----- MMCOUGAR .

The 45/70 with chest shots genrally knocks a bear down with one shot,, where upon they get shot a couple- few times more.......The bears don,t dilly dally around ..,. they hit the ground... Shot guns don,t have the velocity....They work but the modern 45/70 -450 Marlin works better..... And unless your a duck They are more versitile...

Here's my take on this thread, we are wanting the best possible solution to stop a charging brown bear at close range. To me, 10 yards is close range, not 50 or 75, if I'm shooting out that far I could use my 375 H&H. I want to put as big a piece of lead in the bear as possible that will stop him dead. I want to bust bone and tear up vitals. I have shot 1 grizzly up close in self defense but I wasn't alone and we were both ready for the charge. I have not used a shotgun in self defense but have carried one while fishing and hiking.
mmconcolor, if your talking about the 3" Brenekke Dangerous Game loads, those are 600 grain slugs, i carried 10 of them with my 1300 Defender with 5 inside and 5 on a shell holder strapped to the stock.

That is a simple one Marlin guide gun in 45/70, 405gr kodiak bonded @ 1925fps. Leupold scout scope with heavy german post reticle, and while west guns ghost rings sight with tritium front bead. Add to that a surfire 9p with pressure sensitive switch and your as good as it gets. Lock the stupid cross bolt safety so it doesn't cause any problems and your good to go. This is my camp/fishing gun and I woudl take it any day of the week over a shotgun of any kind.

At close range 15-20 feet the point of impact is just about dead center in the light for really quick point and shoot situations, the heavy german plex is the easiest to aquire and hit with against dark or cluttered backgrounds and the trit dot and large ghost ring works great even in VERY low light situations.

Remember what Morris Tallifson said concerning his 375 H&H " now this will knock a bear down" ,,.,., Not to start an arguement but, what do you need 5 or 10 shots for when one will do the job......I would prefer a Ruger # 1 45/70 with one of my hand loads or Buff Bore / Cor Bon /Garret ect.to any street sweeper............But would prefer a 375 to that.....

Didn't say I needed 5-10 shots, i said thats what I carried, read into it however you want.

Interesting responses.

It seems that both the shotgun and the 45-70 have support, but not the 30-06.

Mr. Concolor:

Your exploration into bear defense must have been a fun time for you and your son. When it comes to shotguns I am partial to the Remington 870...just because I have used on for 26 years in law enforcement. It has become a habit. With your system built around the semi-auto shotgun, was your intention to work the operating handle with your weak hand pinkie, as in operating a pump but simply sliding your hand back and pushing your fingers into the handle? Does he rely on the safety or an empty chamber?

Anyone: Any personal experience on slug penetration?

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Mr. 78,

That rifle is to die for! You must be very happy with it. I have been doing some research and thought on flashlights attached to firearms and am close to adding one to my duty weapon. There simply isn't a down side.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

quote:

Originally posted by M70Nut:
12 ga shooting 3" 600 grain Brennekke Dangerous Game Loads and open sites, 6 in the well and one in the tube.

Make that the same for me, specially if the bear is very close.

Normally while hunting we will have our "toilet", a 35 gallon drum with both ends cut off and a toilet seat screwd to one end, about 200-300 yards downwind of our camp. It is very comforting to be able to light up strange sounds and have the gun already pointed when in bear country. Then all you have to do is rack one in and pull the trigger.

This summer while walking back from fishing up a thick brushy area on a "bear trail", more a tunnel than a trail, I happened to light up a suspicious looking lump to find a medium sized sow and one cub about 30 feet off the trail. Luckily she turned tail and ran when the light hit her. She must have heard us coming and got off the trail as we were making a lot of noise, always a good idea when traveling in the dark in bear country. If she had ran towards me instead of away I'm sure the only thing that would have saved me was the fact that she was already centered in my sights.

I also carry a smaller surefire on my chest holser along with my 44 for just the same purpose. I've seen a lot of bears and I'm not particularly afraid of them, just have to treat them with respect and be "bear smart", but I'm not going to deny that it feels good to be well armed just in case.

I have mounted that light on a few other rifles of mine also. Its quite easy, if its a synthetic or wood stock you just screw a small weaver style base to the frong of the forend. and mount the light to that.

78 I,m glad you didn,t patten that idea......Your brillant......Mount the base to the foreend...... Thanks... I would never thot of that....

Easy one. Winchester defender 1200. 7+1, slugs.

Mr. Bear78,

Have you found any downside to attaching flashlights to your defense weapons? I have been unable to come up with a downside, but I haven't used one yet.

Also, do you use a rechargable battery or not. I was told that the non-rechargables don't loose their charge when stored over time.

Thoughts,

Harry

*** FURTHER YET ***

Per M70NUT's input , -- my Breneke's are the 3 INCH Magnum Slugs @ 1 3/8 OZ. -- advertised by the Factory at around 1500 and some MV. and around 2900 ME . -- Now they have a new model out with a Gold slug , -- and similar ballistics . -- The 2 3/4 inch shells are less powerful . -- And they have a Home-Defense round that's really de-tuned , ( low vel. / recoil ) . -- Don't know about others , -- but the 1 3/8 slug = 660 Gr.

But when you go to a Semi-Auto , ( IF it's very reliable ) , you get all of the attributes that make Military and L.E. applications preferrable .

In the case of Bruins , in-close , you NEED , fire-power , AND Stopping Power ; -- ideally , an OPTIMUM balance of the two to yield the ability to GROUP ! , while firing very rapidly .

-- Controllable Full-Auto would be even better Bear Defense , -- but such weapons are not usually available to us law abiding pilgrims .

I believe that a AR 15 clone or FAL rifle in .308 Win , -- Full-Auto , would be the ultimate , in-close Bear stopper . -- Years of Military history makes the concept solid , real-world fact .

As the Animal closes the last few yards , and with a 30 round or + clip , you could FEED the muzzle to the growing target , and literally wet the target down with bullets capable of penetrating into the vitals . -- One would almost certainly find the Central Nervous System .
( This is NOT Spray and Pray , -- so don't even go there , Bolt Action Fans , --- This is " Directed Fire " .

--- I would , personally feel very comfortable with such a Rifle ; -- in the face of the fact that most Bear Attacks , ( where contact is made ) , happen within 50 Yds. -- with a huge percent happening inside of 30 !

But seins' as we can't carry these ; -- the Xtrema II Beretta , with an extended Magazine to at least 8 rounds , and an E.O. Tech Holosight , is the next best answer . That's what my Son and I recently built up .

The Xtremas have no less than five , (5) , recoil dampening devices on-board , if you buy the special " KICK-OFF " stock . Thje Holosight is amazing , if you have time to shoulder the weapon . --- FAST !! target acquisition .

The first time I test fired it , -- we set up big Bulls only 15 ft. away . With zip practice , and never having fired the weapon ; -- I grouped three 3" Brennekes in about 8 inches , on-target in less than a second . -- but I used an over-hand technique with the buttstock tucked in under my strong elbow . My weak hand was dropped over the BBl. ahead of the receiver , to fight the recoil . --- The elevated rib made a nice crease in the heel of my weak hand , -- but other than that , -- I was very pleased with the results .

I will repeat , -- I do not believe anything could charge through that . -- it's just my opinion , but I feel very confident with the whole rig , -- and I DO NOT get that feeling with ANY manually operated , Big-Bore rifle .

They're too slow , and you can't group with them in time to save your bacon , come a close-in Charge ; ( which most lethal charges are ) . -- You don't mess around , -- you play the best odds .

Think of the Semi-auto Shotguns , with the Magnum Slugs , as an african Double , -- with six more back-up rounds . --- Then you will behold the beauty of the Technique -- .

All of the above , -- JMHO .

------- Nose To The Trail , --- MMCOUGAR .

P.S. -- It ain't good to apply " HUNTER " thinking to this arena , --- Hunter-mentality is all wrong for close-in , dirty -nasty survival fighting . -- The Bear don't care , -- the train is on the track , in a real charge .

It's truth time , SportsFans .

*** Reply to HARRY C ***

Sorry I ended the Post without answering your question . -- ( Bad ! absent minded ) .

I'm a southpaw shooter and the Xtrema is a right-side weapon , so if the chamber is not charged ; -- I just drop the butt into my belt-line with the Strong-hand , and work the bolt with my weak hand .

-- But the carry , in High Population Bear environs , -- is just like in Military or L.E. tactics ; -- round in the chamber , fully loaded , and safety on .

But on slippery trails , -- you have to trust the training and judgement-under-stress , -- of any you're travelling with .

Surprised by a Bear , -- you need cool headed partners .

---------- MMCOUGAR .

Mr. Color,

Interestingly it seems you have approached this situation more from a tactical perspective than a hunting perspective. Wise.

I have zero experience with semi-automatic shotguns. When I think of tactical semi-automatic shotguns the Remington 11-87 comes to mind because I am so happy with their 870. What is it that you like about the Xtrema II Beretta that puts it ahead of the 11-87 in your decision?

I appreciate you sharing the results of your thought and research on this subject.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

I'll stick with the 45/70. I love the sites WWG uses and have them on my co-pilot. Right now I shoot 400gr hard cast at 1600fps but have been playing around with jacketed lately. Like Gum mention, I put an "e" clip on my safety so I can not hit it accidently, If I want a safe weapon, I go half cock, so far never had a problem, of course I'm always the one in front.

I never really got into shotguns for anything. I dont even own one. I think I'm the only gun nut alaskan that doesnt have a shotgun.

Joel I don,t own a shotgun either.

I think the main fault in Mmcolor's logic is that few people would walk aroudn with that kind of armement. 99% of the time I will have my 629 44 mag 4" revolver with 6P maglight along side it, another 25-40% of the time I will have the guide gun with me. Most of the time if I have the guide gun with me I am probably hunting so if a moose walked out at 100-150 yards I would still be able to shoot it with the guide gun, the rare times that I carry it while fishing its only in area's where an encounter is very probable. I'm not going to war. I'm not going to have any full out 308, way too much weight to carry around anyway. Anyone carryign cocked and locked is asking for trouble. The tube should be empty, I guess this is especially true for the lever gun because the hammer can get pulled back accidentaly, and it only takes a second to rack the lever. I'd also be much more concerned with getting one good shot than several fast ones, too likely to miss with spray and pray mentality.

Bear attacks don't happen at 50 or even 30 yards, bear attacks happen at 20 feet or less. You shouldn't even be considering shooting at a bear 50 or even 30 yards away, keep on eye on it maybe but not shooting.

There is a phenomina here every summer I normally see a couple of insidences a year usually at the russian river, its called "bearanoia". People come up here actually looking forward to a bear confrontation.

A good example was these two guys this summer, they told me in the parking area about a huge grizly chasing them off the river earlier that day. Later that day they were fishing a few hundred feet down the river from me and my 3 year old, a small brown walked down to the river and peeked out of the brush about 40-50 yards away from them, they freaked, and sprinted back up to the parking area waving thier handguns around like B rated cop movie. The same guys were telling another guy about thier harrowing ordeal when I took my limit up to my truck. Apparently I had a bad angle on it because they said a huge brown had chased them off the river twice that day and they almost had to shoot it, good think they had thier trusty glock on them. Two days later a guy shot a small black bear because it had come down the the whole he was fishing several times even after he chased it away. He figured it must have meant to attack him so he shot it from across the river. We even had some dickhead spray down a sow with cubs with his SKS last year. This resulted in a wounded sow that later died, and three angry adolescent browns chasing dozens of guys off the river and putting potentially hundreds of lives at risk.

I have saw a lot of your posts on this subject here and on other forums, you have about the worst cast of "bearanoia" of any man I have ever heard of. The only other guy so obsessed is that wacko that designed the bear proof suit, that wieghed close to 400lbs and was arrow and bullet proof to boot. Please stay down in the lower, preferably texas or florida. Then you can spend your time desiding the most tactical way to ward off semi aquatic aligator attacks. Perhaps some sort of high pressure compressed gas powered explosive harpoon, lazor guided of course.

Mr. 78,

mnconcolor was responding to the exact question that I posed at the beginning of the thread. It was a hypothetical bear defense situation. It would be more appropriate to attack the formation of my question than his response. I posed the question more to spark daydreams than anything else.

Again, I enjoyed the picture and background on your 45-70. That seems close to the very ideal for your intended purpose.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

I appologize for jacking your thread harry, this is a repeated question with similar responces by the same players, I guess I was bringing old arguments back up that last post.

Its good to be prepared in the "in case" situation but don't let yourself be caught up to much in that scenario, its HIGHLY unlikely at best to occur and best to prepare with practical equipement to be ready for the one in a million chance. Its best to use the weapon you have on you, and conveinence is important in that respect, if its too heavy it will be sitting up next to a tree when you really need it. Find something you can carry well, and know how to use it when the time comes.

We regularly practice "bear attack" situations but its mostly a fun game. Radio controlled cars and balloons are lots of fun for this sort of practice, tie the ballon to the tip of the RC car antena and try to shoot it as it races at you from 20 yards away, with either hand gun or long gun from feild carry position. YOu will find the one good shot more successful than multiple shot scenario. My one buddy regularly beats me with a sigle action ruger 45 than my double action 44.

Oddly enough one of the more likely times of getting attacked by a bear is when your walking your dog. The dog will follow its nose to a bears kill, and the bear will follow the dog back to you. Other than that you will probably be hunting or fishing, so the most practicle thing to use is your hunting gun, or if fishing a handgun.

First of all , -- believe it's time for a disclaimer : -- I think it's important to say , here , that almost all of my conclusions are theoretical and/or based on my own experience , ( which ain't much With Bruins of the Grizz. persuasion ) .

( And I hope that doesn't , necessarily , make them wrong conclusions ) .

I've been a Gun Fan since I was in knee-pants , -- I WAS charged by a Black Bear , once , and I DID spend most of my career in Law Enforcement or Enforcement-related fields ; -- but I ain't no expert that's been going into tunnels after wounded Brownies for 20 yrs .

I'm mentioning this , only because this sort of advice can read-out life or death to someone who takes it as gospel . -- JMHO .

What I do , believe in , -- is tapping into the great body of information found in the best , and most accurate books , that come out of African Dangerous game School . --- And applying those principles to the Bear Charge subject .

With great respect for experienced Alaskan Brown-Bear Guides , and especially Phil Shoemaker , ( who has aided my search profoundly on many occasions , on this Forum ) ;

-- there are not many people in the world who have been charged By Grizlys many times ; -- and have written about it in terms of , strategies , tactics , and choice of weapons , -- IN DEPTH .

--- Thousands of writings on the subject , -- but by FEW who have been true-charged at close quarters , MANY TIMES .

Seems to me there's ten times as much stuff out there from Africa Shooters ; -- so I recommend that source .

Everybody tears and compares " Hunting " Cartridges , and Hunting-rifles ; that might be used for Bear-Stopping in case of the very rare true-charge . But very little info. out there on pure Bear Defense tactics and strategies .

Even less info. on specialized , pure Bear-Charge Defense weapons . --- Them's our findings , at least .

--- Wish Phil , or somebody with real access to the incidents , -- would sit down and write a real complete compendium on the subject . --- It would become an instant Classic .

Right now , the best approach is to read the wisdom of Bear Behavior Biologists , -- so as to know what you're really up against ; -- and any article in Gun-Rags that you come upon .

I chose the Xtrema II because I did research a lot , and wanted designers and engineers who had a strong background in Militaty-Torture testing standards for dependable weapons . ( Ref. - the current U.S. Armed Services' Official Sidearm - by Beretta !! ) .

We looked closely at the Benelli's and the Winny SX2's and Rem. and Browning types , -- etc. etc. ; -- almost everything out there . -- The Xtrema II , is a further refinement of the Mod. 391 , -- which has been wrung out by experts .

-- Mainly , it's also a Gas-Gun ; -- and if you're going to group rapidly with any recoil level like 3" Mag. - 660 Gr. slugs , -- you had better have state-of-the-art recoil dampening . -- Not unimportant for Alaska , -- is its total , in-and-out Waterproofing in their Aqua-Tech system .

But the guiding fact in all of this , -- are the CONDITIONS , under which most true , ( not bluff ) Charges , occur .

-- Odds are , you'll have one to five SECONDS to get 'er done , -- and that's pretty frightening . --- What's really frightening is the power of a large Bear . -- They can pole-axe a human with one casual swipe of the paw . -- A big one can get your whole head in its mouth . ---- And even more impressive , is that they are stone persistent when wounded . -- Known to intensify a charge with their entrails dragging in the mud .

Lots of poo-pooing about how RARE true attacks are , ( usually by those who have never been charged ! ) . I'm a Professional Forester , by schooling ; with a few Wildlife courses in my distant past . -- I'm always amazed at how many " experts " cop-out to National statistics on the rarity of true-Bear-Attacks .

-- Those statistics are reasonably accurate , all right , and Attacks where contact is made , ( like my personal one ) , ARE statistically rare .

But add the protected and/or highly regulated status of Grizz. today ; -- then add the fact that we're not selectively breeding them anymore by immediately shooting any Bear that comes around human housing , ( or livestock ) , acting agressive . -- Then add the factor that Bear attacks are escalating nationwide , and have been for some time .

Then especially add the fact that a Hunter in high-pop. Bear range always has food smell all over himself and his camp ; -- and that bears in some areas come to gunfire sound , like it was a free-lunch advertisement .

--- And finally add that anyone Hunting Grizz. runs the greatly increased Jeopardy of wounding an animal ;

--- and the probability of getting killed or mauled goes WAY , WAY up , probability-wise .

Not to be an alarmist , -- but , to me you've got to think about this if you're going to be sleeping outdoors much .


-------- Nose To The Trail , --- MMCOUGAR .

Geeeez , -- I hadn't read the scathing attack by , -- THEBEAR_78 , ---
( ouch ) .

Thanks for the vote of confidence, HARRY C .

Well , -- I'd say , if I get my ego out of it , -- THE BEAR 78 , makes a point that you ain't going to carry an ideal Bear-attack weapon on a hunting trip , -- nor on a casual afternoon walk in Yosemite Park . -- And you'd sure look a little funny in country where there arn't many bears . -- Wasn't thinking of such .

And I'm not advocating that .

When you're hunting Brown Bear or Griz. , -- you're not going to carry a Bear Defense Special , because you need the range of a flatter trajectory . -- But I'd sure consider one for a Back-up weapon .

The subject of Bear hunting Rifles , (that might also be excellent Stopping-Weapons ) , -- is another separate subject .

But I figure as a camp gun , and or when doing trail-work in Hi-Bear Country , -- I'll sure as hell carry mine .

Yep ! , -- and it WAS great fun researching it and putting togeather the Xtrema .

Figure I did something in the past to piss THEBEAR_78 off ?? --- Maybe soon , he'll tell me what he REALLY thinks .

----------- MMCOUGAR .

MM, a little paranoid...just kidding.

I've only been charged once and that was at 60 yards ( we stumbled on a kill, luckily it was in a clearing) but have had numerous bear encounters (there is a difference). I'm no expert, but I think I figured out you use what your comfortable with. its your ass you have to keep upright. Wether it be shotgun, lever, or bolt. you decide. this debate will go on forever.

It is fun to talk about though.

"45/70 They work so well and so fast ...Good quality bullets 350-540 gr weight as fast as they can go with a million percent reliability........ If it was me I would fix the saftey so I couldn,t accidentially put it on safe......."-

Gumboot, check out:

http://www.longhunt.com/action_work/action_work.shtml

They sold me the cross bolt replacement/screw for my 50ak boat/camp/fishing gun for exactly the reasons you describe. You CAN'T take a chance on murphy's law; simplify and remove potential failure points.

MMconcolor, it sounds like you and your son have put quite a lot of thought into your choice, and that's 90% of the issue, so my hat is off. My only caveat is to be certain a semiauto is appropriate to his particular environment. One thing I constantly see underestimated is just how crappy AK can be to firearms despite the best of intentions(salt or extreme cold w/blowing snow, rain+salt, etc).

When it is foggy/misty/and raining NOTHING will dry at times for days at a time. My wife rusted my stainless gold cup to the point it would not function in a record 5 days last summer despite nightly cleanings. Not an ideal ak belt gun but the one she was practiced with. That said, I hunt w/some 100+ year old guns too, I just pick my days and prep the heck out of them, and hope for the best.

Best of luck, Bob

--- Paranoid ? -- maybe so ; but remember a starving Griz. can smell a fresh rabbit-turd upwind , four miles away .

Can smell that Trout-grease in your beard , too .

Seems Griz. are , alas , always starving , anyways .

------- Highest Regards , MMCOUGAR .

Here is the scenario that prompted my initial post:

A guy I have worked with off and on since 1990 recently retired and was looking for post-retirement jobs. He mentioned to me a possible job as a security guard on the Alaska pipeline in the Barrow, AK area. According to my friend it was 12 hours a day, seven days a week, three month on and a month off. There were three duties…fixed post surveillance, roving patrol of the pipeline, AND providing security to repair crews. Apparently this security was for the purpose of protecting the repair crews from polar bear attacks.

All of my information is at least second hand. BUT it is the stuff that daydreams are made of! Going out and protecting repair crews from polar bear attacks!

This was what prompted the daydreaming that resulted in my post. No nexus to hunting. No nexus to outdoor sports. Pure bear defense.

I have no idea if the job exists in the terms it was explained to me. But imagine the possibilities!

Thanks for sharing the results of your thoughts, research, and personal experiences. This is a job I’ll never apply for, but it will bring happy thoughts during spare moments.

Respectfully,
Harry. C.

Harry ,, do you know how COLD it is up there????

MM, you and M70 did a great job on the question at hand. Several turned this around to hunting situations and I loved the comment gumboot made about eh 45-70 USUALLY putting the bear down quickly. In a bear defense situation, I don't want to deal with suppositions or what "usually" happens. I want 2000+ pounds of muzzle energy hitting that sucker immediately. I don't care what kind of penetration it gets, I figure a ton of energy will slow him down enough that I get a couple of chances to give him a few more tons of energy. I said in another post, most Americans are in a dream world when it comes to the power and quickness of bears. A bolt action or a lever action are simply and consistently TOO SLOW for bear defense. Recent deaths of 2 hunters in Canada found two bolt action rifles with actions partially opened. As MM said, I'd really prefer the 12 guage auto if possible. I think the pump is also too slow but I know it to be a more dependable and reliable action than the auto. If the situation happened and I knew that I'd likely only have one shot, it really wouldn't matter how quickly the second one came. I'd damned well sure want that "only" one to hit him like a train wreck. No pistol on the market today can give me that feeling of safety with bears.

--- Gumboot's question is not , OT , -- raises the question of Semi-Auto function in extreme cold .

Military testing has addressed all that .

-- don't know much about the new super gun oils , -- but the old way used to be , -- when anticipating 40 to 60 Below Zero ; completely dissasemble the firearm , -- chemically clean off all residues , -- and lubricate with GRAPHITE ! -- Maybe no need to do that with new , space-age lubricants ?

Quote from Robt. Service , ( the YUKON Poet ) :

" ..... if our eyes , we'd close then the lashes froze , till sometimes we couldn't see . "

" ..... talk of your Cold , through the parka's fold , it stabbed
like a driven nail . "

A good Friend who lived in , and hunted Alaska a lot , used to say , " ..... when you hock up a big logie and spit , and it sails out there about three ft. and makes a loud
" crack ! " in the air , -- then drops to the ground and bounces like a marble , -- then you know it's really cold .

Merry Christmas to All , --- MMCOUGAR .