Mr. 458,

I hadn't thought of a chainsaw before! I guess the trick is to either bring extra gas mixture or a REALLY LONG extension cord!!

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Ironic that a chainsaw was brought up......in 1998, over across the bay from here in Homer, a guy was at his cabin when a brownie charged and all he had to fend it off with was a chainsaw......he was successful, fending off several charges from his porch.......a neighbor ended up shooting the bear with his rifle. True story.

Joe

***Assumes pompous stance…tilts back head…looks down nose…speaks in booming voice***

I personally use a Stihl 24†with an after market high capacity tank and high carbon steel cutting tips. It is tuned by only the most skilled mechanic for FLAWLESS function. I carry TWO spare gas jugs for quick reloading during extended attacks. I burn nothing less than PREMIUM gas. The very last word in bear defense. Yes, it is a specialized weapon, but when I’m risking my very life price is no object.

***Looks down nose at lesser models***

I amuse myself too easily!!!

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Real men use a hand saw.........

I had a uncle who get drunk and go to local dump and chase blk bears around with his chain saw.

I never heard that he caught any myself thought he was just being a dumb ass drunk.

Maybe he was onto something.

hahaha this is funny! me I use a dble. bit axe, figure if the first blade gets broke in some hard skull bones I would just flip it around and give it another round.

Harry,

MMC was right all along.....I would give you my idea of the ideal bear defense chainsaw but, being I'm involved in the black ops against the local bear population, I don't feel that I can objectively address the subject as these black ops devices are only secretly available to, yes, you guessed it, Alaskans. Revealing the darkside of local bear control would only open me up to scathing, vicious, derogatory(proper spelling),scurrilous attacks from the unknowing. That's the long and the short of it......I will say that size does make a difference when addressing bear defense involving a chainsaw......I actually carry my chainsaw in a crossdraw position while in the bush, but I do have a large blue ox to carry the rest of the kit and spare fuel.

Harry, I hope this helps.........

Joe

Harry C was actully ,, Possibly unknowingly ,, getting towards correct................The sound of the chain in the bar affects bears as much if not more than just the engine noise ...But an Ace Morgan 394 Hot Rod Husky with an opened up muffler, with a 36" bar works fine... The thing to be careful of tho is bears LOVE bar oil ......Sometimes they bite thru the main case to get at it......Peeing on your saw when you leave it at night helps ......Asking the Lord to protect it is the best.......... Bears attraction to most things people related has gotten lots of them killed..... A firearm is only a last resort to use until ,,,,,you start your power saw..........I,ve probably run off a couple mayby few hunderd bear with a saw...I can still see a smallish sow that was following me around with a pink in her mouth , in this one thinning unit I had at False Island....... She would keep her distance while the saw was running but would walk right up to me when I was refueling... We genrally wear a gallon or so of gas and half a gal. of bar oil...... It was kind of disconcerting as I only had a short barreled 357 on also... I would get my feuel bottle in my hand and open the cap on it and the saw ,,then immedietly shut it off and pour and pray..... she was around 8 ' away one time befor I got it started again....She had stashed the pink....once I got it running again I would refill the oil tank with it idleing...... She was a nice little bear and I didn,t want to blast her... Not that a 357 has alot of blast....But she was a nice little bear.......Sometimes it was verry funny watching her... But if I would have got cut I would have probably been screwed...........I didn,t have a dog with me at that time.....

I've heard of moose being attracted to the sound of an axe hitting wood but never would have thought that a bear would like chainsaw oil, thats a new on me. Thanks for the info gumboot458.

Bears are also apt to bite through cans of Coleman fuel(white gas).....have had them take cans off into the bush but leave a cooler of food alone......

Joe

Mr. Nut:

“Real men use a hand sawâ€

I should have seen that one coming! ïŠ That made my day!!!

Mr. 7:

But does the double bit ax contain a completely independent handle and attachment wedge in the event the first set fails? Should we consult with our colleagues on the Africa Hunting Forum?

Mr. Ovis:

For a Special Ops ax is a wooden handle and shinny ax head okay or should we camouflage coat the metal and use a fiberglass handle? Cross draws are okay but the truly elite use shoulder holsters!

Mr. 458:

“Possibly unknowingly, getting towards correct†You got that one right!! I loved reading your actual use of a chain saw with bears! I never would have thought it!!

You all made may day!!

Respectfully,
Harry C.

IF A 45-70 can take the Africa BIG 6, it can pprobably take anything in ALaska also...

from Garrett Cartridge site..
"Lupo Safaris

New World Record

In the summer of 2002, Vince Lupo of Tampa, Florida successfully completed his quest to take the African Big Six with his Marlin 45-70 lever-gun and Garrett Hammerhead Ammo. Vince's efforts spanned a 13-month period, a remarkably short time given the broken ankle Vince suffered during his safaris. From the 220-pound charging leopard Vince stopped point-blank, to his remarkable SCI Gold Medal white rhino and huge elephant, Vince's safaris have demonstrated an exceptional combination of tenacity and outstanding marksmanship. Vince Lupo is the first to take the African Big Five or Six with the 45-70 lever-gun. To read a full account of this remarkable achievement as told by Vince Lupo, check out the articles below."

Hi Joe! How have you been? I still have your book. When will you be in town?
I haven't seen you posting on the 'Fire in some time and was a-wondering where you was!

These threads always crack me up with the experts that heard about a bear one time! Funny stuff.

Hey Mike,

Just holed up down here in Homer......You've got a PM.

Joe

[quote]one of us
Posted 30 December 2006 03:25 Hide Post
** RE : THE QUOTE BELOW AND BEAR-OPS , ( BLACK ) **

MMC was right all along.....I would give you my idea of the ideal bear defense chainsaw but, being I'm involved in the black ops against the local bear population, I don't feel that I can objectively address the subject as these black ops devices are only secretly available to, yes, you guessed it, Alaskans. Revealing the darkside of local bear control would only open me up to scathing, vicious, derogatory(proper spelling),scurrilous attacks .

--- YAS !, -- ( mispelled , - with ironical intent ) .
You know , I'm startin' to think Ovis ain't that bad . -- If emulation is the sincerest form of flattery ; -- maybe when a bitter , scathing , hate-filled , Forum-enemy , -- who calls B.S. on your every declaration ; ..... begins to correct your spelling ; it means he's really paying attention to your stuff . ( ?? ) . -- Sincerely hope this doesn't mean I'm going to get spit in my ear . --- ---

I knew that the " Black-Ops " ploy would set the trap .

Speaking of Traps , hell , the original Black-Ops device , -- was once considered for the centerpiece on the State Flag of Alaska ; ..... it was a simple graphic of the Newhouse Bear-Trap .

Bear poison , and little predator-control gizmos that fired a pellet of cyanide into the Griz's mouth when a bear tugged on a piece of cotton saturated with female Bear estrogen and/or Salmon oil ; --- are now so secret they aren't even in the Black-Bear-Ops field manual . --- .

( Learned about the little Cyanide-devices in CSU Forestry School , -- under Predator-Control , in Wildlife Mgmt. Class ) .

Seriously , I believe I'd rather have a good Mc Cullough Chain saw against a riled Bear , -- than that newfangled Pepper Spray .
--- Maaybe ( intentional misspelling for colloquial effect ) , even better than a damn underpowered , .30-06 .

If you take the , " .... long and short of it " statement ; and scrutinize the " .... I will say that size does make a difference " statement , --- we're starting to see some Freudian implications to Chain-Saw potency , ( against Bruins ) .

Blue Ox ? , -- Blue Ox ? -- , Listen , -- I ain't kiddin' that really is excellent humor . --- Ovis , -- you can't be all bad

Next time you do a scathing , vicious , derrogatory attack ( sorry , but I fell asleep in Spelling Class ) ; -- or maybe my lizzard brainstem was trying to make a bear-sound , -- ( derrrrogatory ) ?? ;

---- I'm going to remember all the good stuff you know about Bruins .

Sincere thanks for some very good info. on Bears and Firearms .

No , this doesn't mean you're going to get spit in your ear .

------------------ Regards , --- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Bear poison , and little predator-control gizmos that fired a pellet of cyanide into the Griz's mouth when a bear tugged on a piece of cotton saturated with female Bear estrogen and/or Salmon oil ;

Called getters.

A former mainstay of wolf control.

Seems like this has tapered off, but I had a question about shotgun reliability. All the police depts around here use the 870. I was in a shop a few years ago looking at the lovely extended magazine 12ga pumps. When I asked about the alloy action on the Mossberg vs the steel actioned 870, the dealer said the Mossberg was the only one accepted by the military. Which pump is currently used by the military? I noticed mention of military testing proving reliability of the semiauto. Does the military use a semiauto 12ga, and if so which one?

I've been retired for 12 years now, but we had the Remington 870 pumps. In Vietnam it was the standard 870 using brass cased rounds. Police around here have the 870 and the SWAT teams have the tactical 870's with folding stocks.

The pump is less prone to mechanical problems as it's a mechanical operation, positive lock device. Anyone who's ever needed to use one can tell you it's one helluva psychological weapon as well. In my hunter ed and master hunter courses, we defer questions of home defense to the CDW instructors, but not before turning off the house lights, telling the students to imagine an intruder in their home, and then work the action of an 870. Once ANYONE hears that sound, shit happens inside bad guys and good guys alike.

Hello Mr. Johnnu,

I work for the Department of the Navy as a civilian Special Agent (Naval Criminal Investigative Service). Up until about three years ago we had Remington 870's. Then they were replaced by Mossburg 500's...very similar the 870...both pump action tube fed 12 ga's. I don't have any inside information as to why the switch was made but the general belief among agents is that Mossburg was the lowest bidder. I can't find anything wrong with the Mossburg, but still prefer the Remington. My preference is more habit and familiarity than anything, the Mossburg is a great shotgun.

I don't know if the DON or DOD has made a blanket change to the Mossburg, but am pretty sure that at least the DON has. I have no knowledge of the U.S. military adopting semi-automatic shotguns for general use. There are a number of specialized units throughout the military that can purchase weapons directly, so it is almost impossible to make blanket statements. I have heard no discussion of a switch within the military to semi-automatic shotguns. Please note, although I work with the military virtually every day, I am (and always have been) a civilian. There is a lot I don't know.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

quote:

Originally posted by Harry C.:
Hello Mr. Johnnu,
I don't know if the DON or DOD has made a blanket change to the Mossburg, but am pretty sure that at least the DON has.
Respectfully,
Harry C.

AS of 12/22/06 the USMC is using Benelli's

Thank you for the info. Collins, are they Benelli pumps or semis?

Well, I asked the question "Who here has ever been attacked by a brown/grizzly?"
No one has I guess, so I'd say an opinion on best bear defense from Delaware, New Jersey, or even Texas is just as good as from Alaska.

*** MILITARY ***

The OSS , ( in WWII ) , used the old , ( and very dependable ), Browning Auto 5 - Humpback , -- chopped and channeled .

The Benelli is excellent, but is not a true Gas-Operated weapon . --- Sooo , you don't get the maximum anti-recoil effect for rapid grouping .

The Green , 870 , -- has a solid steel receiver machined from a single solid billet of the finest oridnance Steel . -- The Mossy , - an alloy one .

-- Both excellent dependability , -- the Mossy lighter ,
( which is a detriment ) . --- You can run over an 870 with a truck , and chances for function are good . ( It's been done ) .

Vehicle rolls over the Mossy , and , -- cracked receiver !

--- 870's are better overall , ( I've got one ) ; -- but if cycled at funny angles , or in funny ways , are famous for double-chugging out two rounds , ( I've done it , -- by accident ! ) .


------ MMCOUGAR .

Walker,

About seven years ago, I was charged by a brownie while fishing the stream I've lived on.....the charge ended 12-15' from me......my defense? A six weight fly rod......at that moment in my life, I would have given most anything for something that went boom......the bear left me, picked up his salmon(I was dolly fishing)and made off into the bush....I walked back to my cabin(150yds)and now I fish w/my M-GG in .45-70 or Vaquero 45LC. These are what suit me...not saying they're for everyone...I'm just more careful now......I was careless that day and not paying attention to my surroundings.....didn't use common sense which is the best weapon against an "attack."

Your comment on opinions from folks from other states has some merit.....I was in NJ several years ago when they had their first season in 30 something years and due to the antis and gov officials it was a bad experience. There are lots of bear in NJ.....I'm sure those hunters have valid opinions......bear hunters from Delaware, I'm sure have opinions whether or not there are lots of bear in Delaware.....your comment, "even Texas," I'm not sure you guys have figured out how to keep a bear behind a high fence......so the jury's still out on your opinions

Sorry my bear charge story wasn't macho, shoot 'em up, or anything......just the way it was.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
Well, I asked the question "Who here has ever been attacked by a brown/grizzly?"
No one has I guess, so I'd say an opinion on best bear defense from Delaware, New Jersey, or even Texas is just as good as from Alaska.

Don't polar bears count?

John (had my run ins with polar bears in arctic Canada)

The outfitter I flew out with to the Lake Clark area carries both a 12ga. and a 44mag sidearm when guiding fishermen.

Hi Mr. Ovis,

I liked the story about the chain saw better than your experience with the fly rod! A chain saw just sounds more "manly".

All joking aside, I enjoyed reading about your experience. Thanks for sharing.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Walker,
Let me attempt to clear up a possible misconception that you may have. When you state

quote:

Have any of you Alaska guys, or any of the rest of you for that matter, ever actually defended yourself from a full fledged brown/grizzly attack?

and/or

quote:

Well, I asked the question "Who here has ever been attacked by a brown/grizzly?"

You may not fully understand that there is a definite difference between a "charge" and a "full fledged brown/grizzly attack".

Allow me to explain. I believe, whether mistakenly or not, that an "attack" occurs when the bear actually makes physical contact with a person. There is no way that anyone can accurately predict what a bear will do, in any given circumstance.

In my opinion, a good rule of thumb is: In identical circumstances, the same bear will react or behave in a totally different manner each time.

Bears charge a number of people, only to break off the charge before it developes into an attack. Is it possible to determine when a charge will become an attack? No, there is no accurate way to determine the outcome of a charge. Bears attack without a charge, and attack before a person even knows there is a bear around.

One thing that people should remember is that most bears have a highly developed prey drive, so if a person runs from a charge, they have just moved themselves to the bottom of the food chain, plain and simple. Also it is important to keep in mind that a bear can outrun a horse for short distances, never mind humans.

I know several people who have been attacked, and the actual victim of the attack has had little, if any, chance to use any weapon, in his or her defense. It is usually the person accompanying the victim that is able to provide any reasonable defense and chase off the bear.

In one situation, the victim was alone and got between a brown bear sow and her cubs, and was attacked. The victim played dead, only to mistakenly believe the bear had left. He tried to get to his feet and was attacked again. The bear did not do a major amount of damage, but this was not due to any defense the victim was able to muster, perhaps the bear was more concerned with the cubs, maybe luck, but for whatever reason the victim has seriously injured but has since completely healed and is doing well.

Another has spent well over a year healing from the injuries recieved in a brown bear attack, which occurred while the victim was berry picking. The victim was taken without even knowing a bear as near, the partner shot at the bear several times, and appeared to have made at least one hit with a rifle, though sure the bear was hit hard with every shot. We tracked the bear's blood trail for miles without locating the beast, or any indication the bear was seriously wounded.

If I had been attacked by a bear, I would probably not be wanting to discuss that nightmare with you. I don't believe that a person who has managed to live through the experience of having an animal ripping the flesh from his or her bodies, literally eating them alive, really needs someone digging those memories up, do you?

I have been charged by brown and polar bears, and I will almost bet that Gumboot458 has had similar experiences with brownies. (I know, I give Gumboot a hard time, and try to stir him up now and again, but I really kind of like the old fart)

I have been fortunate in that the bear was either taken down before the charge became an attack, or the bear broke off the charge and I was able to extricate myself from the situation without serious incident.

When I do shoot bears, whether on a charge or not, I have used several different calibers and firearms, all with success. .308 AR-10 (Brown), .338 WinMag Bolt action (Polar and Brown), and .45-70 lever action (Brown). I must say I prefer the .45-70 for close range out to perhaps 100 to 150 yards, and the .338 WinMag for extended range.

I use a pump action shotgun, loaded with crackershot shells, to run problem bears off. I am not positive I would be as comfortable using a shotgun on a bear, due to the limitation on range, accuracy, and stopping power outside minimal range.

Perhaps this will answer your question.

Hey HC,
Just wondering what kind of bullets you were using in the 308 and how many shots were required? BTW, what kind of AR-10 do you have?

I understand what HC is saying, about many people who have been attacked not having enough time to defend themselves, even if they had a gun. It happens often enough around here to become classified as not uncommon - for this location in the world.

I spoke with a fellow recently who had a close encounter this past summer. Keep in mind that this guy is athletic, and quick, which is probably the only thing that saved him, other than luck. I am repeating the best I can, the short version, exactly what he told me first hand, not what I heard from others. He was picking mushrooms, and somehow walked right up on a bear. The rumor was that the bear was sleeping, but the guy said he didn't think so. He just thinks the dim light in the forest, and his preoccupation of looking for mushrooms kept him from seeing the bear right in front of him, less than 15 feet away. The guy (no name) said the bear was facing away from him, and he saw the bear when it turned its head to look back at him. He remembers the white of its eyes. The guy thinks the bear was eating on a deer, but doesn't know for sure.

Anyway, it all happened very fast. The bear turned to "attack", and the guy threw the five gallon white bucket with mushrooms directly at the front feet of the bear. As the guy described it to me - the bear just "sucked" that bucket into its forepaws and began biting and ripping it to pieces. This distraction was just enough for the guy to scramble up a tree, where he waited until the bear left.

The guy said that even if he had a gun, he didn't think there was time to use it, and it may have gotten him bit in this case. He said to me that he really thought the bear had got him, but just moved in instinct, and doesn't remember climbing the tree. He remembers being in the tree, so assumed he climbed up there, because it was too high to jump.

I have heard many reliable stories, since living here. One story stands out, told me by one local fellow, who really knows what he is talking about, in my opinion, since he grew up here, and has spent as much time out there as anyone. He started his story by asking a question of me. He asked me how I think these brown bear catch a deer? I speculated a bit, then he told me. They ambush them. It makes sense to me, because I have seen many bear cross the roads, but when I look at the place where they went into the bush, I have seldom seen them. They just dissappear. Once, I remember I turned off the ignition, and just sat there in the truck with the window down, and listened. After about 5 minutes, I heard a slight noise, then to my surprise, the bear stood up, and walked away. He had been hiding within 20 feet of me in the grass all along, waiting for me to drive on.

Anyway, back to the story. This local fellow told me that the bear just lays in ambush by the deer trails, and just grabs one that walks by. At first, I really didn't know what to think about that, but since then I have been paying close attention to what is alongside the deer trails that I walk when out there hunting, or whatever. I look for places that would make a good ambush, and try to avoid them. I swear it's not my imagination, but I have seen many places where the grass is matted down, from five to ten feet from a nice deer trail. The spot looks just about the size of a bear's body. Each time I have seen this, I position myself in the spot, and see if it looks like a good ambush to me - and each time it surely does. So, my point is that the bear knows the difference - usually - between a deer approaching, and a person. Most of the time, the bear just holds it's place and lets the person pass, or sneeks away in advance. This is all downright spooky, because I do not think it is hypothetical. It's way too stressful of a way for me to spend quality time in the outdoors, so I just try to avoid the places where a close and surprise encounter may occur.

It's just like avoiding snakes in Georgia - just don't be walking where the snakes may be hiding in the grass - or wear snake leggings. I will say that probably most bear encounters are not even known by the person involved, because the bear chooses to leave. Often, I have smelled a bear, which I never saw or heard.

Another point is that if the bear is quick and sly enough to ambush a deer, then we don't stand a chance in similar situations. If the bear wants you on me, it's a done deal, if we put ourselves in that situation, especially if the rifle is slung over the shoulder, or the pistol is in the holster. My point is just don't do it. I try to walk in areas where I have some space clear around me. I'm not talking of situations where you have plenty of time to see a bear coming. That's different, and a whole other scenerio plays out. I believe that if I can see the bear coming - bluff charge or not - I at least have a chance to deal with that. It's those ambush situations that really worry me and I look out for.

I'm not willing to let fear of bears keep me out of the woods, so I just carry a big enough gun - I mean powerful enough so that I believe the one shot will end the confrontation, and the bear will go down, and if not stay down that its attention will be turned to tending its wound and pain, and will be worrying more about escape than getting me. I go by the theory that there will only be enough time for one shot that counts, and the others in the magazine are just to finish the job, but not change the outcome. This big enough gun idea also allows me to believe, whether reasonable or not, that I can wait until I am very sure that the bear will not turn away, and is not bluffing. I would rather not shoot a bear out of fear, but because I believe there is no other choice. I often hunt with a 30-06, or 280, because I like the rifles, but my comfort level is directly related to the bore diameter of my rifle.

I have an 870 pump which I load with the Brennekee 1 3/8 oz slugs, but I think the 45-70 buffalo bore loads are a better choice. Those Brennekee slugs are plenty good within about 25 feet, but my comfort level falls off greatly any further than that. My bear gun of choice is either my 375 H&H or the 450 Marlin bolt action I'm having made. I believe that deep penetration is important, and the slug can't do what a well made big bore rifle bullet can do - whether up close or especially out to fifty or more yards if needed. I would recommend the slug gun only as a matter of economics, if a guy needed a gun to do double duty, and just didn't want to spend the money for a specialized big bore rifle. The slug shotgun will do the job, and is a better choice than any pistol, but the guy behind the gun should practice and become proficient, and build the confidence to use restraint, because this type of weapon, and the slugs themselves, lose their effectivness rapidly beyond really up close and personal.

Although not always possible, I try to always keep some clear space around me, and don't let the berries or mushrooms distract my attention of what's going on around. I usually let my wife and others pick the berries, and mushrooms, while I look out. If the bush is thick, and close, I carry the rifle in my hands, not on my shoulder.

Another local guy told me of the time he was field dressing a deer he had just shot. He looked and saw a bear slithering toward him, with his chin down real close to the ground. My friend immediately stood up, and started cursing obsentities at the bear, acting agressive, etc. The bear just stood up, recognizing he had been seen, woofed a few times, and just ambled off in plain sight. I wasn't there, but I fully believe the story. Each time I have hunted with this friend, he cautions me to keep watch, when field dressing a deer, and get out of the area quickly - with the deer, and hope the gut pile will be enough to keep a bear from following.

I appologize to those wanting stories of first hand charges, and attacks, but I was impressed with these stories when they were told to me, and I hope they are worthy of passing along - especially the prespective I learned from them. Perhaps the important thing is that I'm out there too, as much as I can in the summer and fall, and to me it is very exciting to live in a place in the world where this stuff is not hypothetical. It's a very special experience to not only be a hunter, but realize that becoming the hunted is sometimes very possible, and unpredictable. Anyone who lives here, and spends any amount of time outdoors, will lose count of the number of bears seen each year. The charges, and attacks, and other adrenelin surging events are very rare, but do happen enough to cause a sensable person to pay attention, and perhaps most importantly, it gives us folks not living in Africa and excuse to own and use a big bore rifle, and a good chain saw.

KB

MM -----THere is NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD MCCULL A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thart day thinning I was useing an 024 stihl...

Molar1, I have to admit that in this instance, I was using 173 gr. Lake City Match Ammo, FMJ. At the time, I had a broken arm, and really did not want to be running from a pissed off brownie, trying to work a bolt, holding onto a rifle, in the event that something may have prevented the first shot from putting the bear down. I also knew I had twenty shots that could rapidly follow the initial round down range. I had my AR-10 (Standard AR-10A2) in my patrol car after putting a few rounds downrange at the rifle range. The ammunition I had in the case was target stuff, not hunting ammo.

Anyway, this bear had been running us ragged for about two weeks, tearing stuff up, breaking into sheds and smokehouses eating the fish and venison, charging people, and messing around the residences. The bear would move in and out of the residences along the forest, fading into the forest as we responded to each complaint at all hours of the day and night, chasing the bear through the various greenbelts within the residential areas. When I say we were chasing, I should say following, as the bear was NOT afraid of us. We shot blanks, seal bombs, crackershot, and finally used shotgun slugs to attempt to herd the bear into an area where it would be safe to take a shot without endangering the citizens. When we would get it close to a safe zone, it would literally fade into the forest and we wouldn't be able to locate it until the next call. This bear was not leaving the smorgasboard it had located.

Eventually, the call came which allowed a clean shot, on the edge of town, just inside the woodline. Upon my arrival, I approached to within 100 feet, the bear staring at me the entire time I approached. I shot him in the head, between the eyes. He dropped like a rock. Old Gumboot would have been proud of the red mist in the air and matter on the brush. I took two additional shots, just to insure the bear was down for good, both in the neck at the brain stem. When skinned, one of our local guides advised the bear to be between 8.5' and 9'.

Although the .308 round did the job, understand that I, in no way, would suggest anyone hunt a bear with a .308, although I know it will do the job, when the round is properly placed. The .308 round is, at best, iffy for large bears.

Also, for those who may mistakenly believe that shooting into the ground, or a tree stump near a bear will run it off, I have dusted bears with .45-70 rounds and shotgun slugs, into the dirt to their front, stumps right next to their heads, both spraying the bears with debris, just to have them stand up, or maybe move to another spot 5' away. Not the desired reaction for our shots, but some bears have no other reaction than that.

** REPLIES -- REPLIES **

GUMBOOT , -- I dearly hate to date myself , -- but I became a Professional Forester , -- in 1960 . -- Had lots of Forestry jobs before that, worked for State , and Federal Outfits . -- in the 50's Mc Cullough's (sp ? ) , had a good reputation , and most timber operations , -- the Fellers and Limbers , preferred them . ( They used to make a world class Supercharger for hot-rodded car engines too ) . -- Ocassionally you'd see a Homelite . Stilleys wern't even around then , I don't think ??

I saw a giant redwood felled by the Simpson Outfit , about 1960 , -- Took a D-8 Cat about two hrs. to make a bed for the thing to fall in . -- The earth shook , when that baby started to pop . -- We counted the rings , -- that tree was growing when Christ was born .
Huge Mucullough with a handle on the end of the bar ; -- damn long bar too .

-- Got a picture of me pointing to the ring where the callendar started . -- Damn , -- figure there's something sacreligious about dropping those ancient puppies .

H.C. -- very good information , pardner . -- Have read my gazoo off on Bear-Attacks , but never heard the ambush theory . -- Good to know about , though . -- Seens lots of bear beds and prints , some , not too far from trails .

---- Know that Cougars hunt deer that way , -- almost entirely from ambush , ( they never try to chase them down ) .

-- They make the kill , by driving off their back legs , and planting their front claws on the deer's shoulder , -- breaking it's neck , in most cases , against the impact , ( the weight of the head whips into the impact , breaking the neck ). -- People generally don't understand the power , in large predators dense musculature .

Point is , -- God help the poor pilgrim that gets ambushed by a predatory Bear-attack , -- including Blackies .

Back to the topic ; -- it still impresses me , ( in lo these many Threads ) . -- how so many , -- familiar with Bear doins' can know about , and read about large Grizz. taking two or three solid hits from .338's plus a couple from .30-06 , ( and similar with .45-70 / .450 ) , and , unless the CNS is hit , -- still charging around a party .

I mean truely , the documented stories are plentiful . ( Large Griz . are , in fact , world famous for this tenacity ..... .

We've discussed here how often the victim has barely time to get a snap-shot off , before contact .

Where do these guys get this confidence that one shot , in an adrenaline pumping second , is going to stop a Bear in-charge ?? ( I'm talking rounds from the likes of .30-06 , .45-70/.450 , and .338 Win. -- ??

Even the Editor-in Chief of "Bear-Hunting Magazine" , a few years ago , told me that a .458 with 500 gr. SP , was the best common cartridge for Charge-Stopping . ( He also has an African P.H. ticket , incidently ) .

I plain don't get it .

------------ MMCOUGAR .

Hey MMCougar,
Although I broached the subject, Kabluey actually gave a bit more info on the ambush scenario.

You know, I have also heard the stories about the bears running around after being shot to doll rags. I'm sure there are some basis for these accounts. However, on this matter I can only relay my experiences and the experiences of the people and situations with which I am familiar.

In light of this, I must state that although I have seen bears take a couple of shots to kill, this is usually because someone has not properly placed the initial shot, and missed a critical area. Now it may be more due to luck than any other reason, but I have never witnessed a bear take more than 3 good, solid hits, with any acceptable rifle and cartridge, without being killed. I have had to use two shots, one time, using the .45-70, to put a bear down. Most drop with the first well placed shot.

Thankfully, I have also been lucky enough not to be forced to attempt to kill a bear actively involved in an all out attack. Think what you will, I also hope I never have to. This is one of the reasons that I normally do not hunt, hike, fish, and etc., alone in bear country.

I don,t mean to Hijack this thread , so I ,ll try to stay in the general direction......The Last good saw McCula made was the Super Pro 125 and alot of fallers would fight over that.............Not sacrilege to slam an old tree on the ground,, Oldest I,ve fell was a yellow cedar on POW ... I was bored and curious and I counted the rings as well as I could .It was a bit over 1500 years old....there was a 2 ft. hole in the heart.. It was 96 " across the stump....Used a hopped up 044 stihl with a 34 " Sugi Hara bar ... Oregon 3/8 .63 Chisel ground full skip .. I made 28 $ on that snag.. And I thanked God for it ............Most 30/06 users would say it killed stuff with a chest shot genraly faster than a 30/30/ or 30 rem..Same bullet diameter ,,, must be the velocity!!!!!!!!Some where Saeed said the velocity for dangerous game hunting should be 2500 fps... I think that is spot on/.,/.,,.//A friend in Sitka got charged by a Brn bear and it was so close he shot the bear ..She was in bound and running.. Comeing around a bush when he shot her in the chest with his 416 Rem Mag .. he had heard her comeing and just got ready .. He had factory 400 gr Swifts in his rifle .. The bullet went thru the bears body and smashed one of the bears back legs and exited..She was on the ground at the shot and let out all the air of her now scrambled lungs... He shot her a couple more times .. He was alone and had a quartered up buck in his frame pack.......one of the reasons I like less than a 13 " length of pull....And I,ve NEVER got cloped by a scope!.The bear was 3 rifle lengths away.. stand 14 feet from your sofa, or love seat......Imagine its a bear !! The pictures I saw were scary and I,ve BTDT............I got a phone call from him out at the fishing lodge I was working at......His words were .."The 416 paid for itself yesterday".. A large bore slow rifle bullet kills bears faster than a medium or fast 6.5-8mm bullet with a chest shot ... But a Fast big bullet kills faster.... That is why most of the big bore guys have abandoned the 458 win mag for africa in favor of the 416 Rem/ Rigby -458 Lott /Rigby, Whby -500 Jeffries/505/500A-2...Ect...Doubles arn,t required to be as high preformance with one shot because they have 2... And all the other attributes of a double.....Alot of people I,ve worked around have asked me why carry a rifle when I had a pistol......A rifle in my hands is much faster than a pistol in its holster.......The most helpful thing I ever learned from Jeff Copper was holding my finger pressed against the side of the trigger guard when my rifle is 'ready'.. In most of the encounters I,ve had,, the bear left.... But sometimes it took awhile...... Well theres my thots....gumboot out.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Not sacrilege to slam an old tree on the ground. I made $28 on that snag. And I thanked God for it.

Some where Saeed said the velocity for dangerous game hunting should be 2500 fps... I think that is spot on.

one of the reasons I like less than a 13 " length of pull....And I,ve NEVER got cloped by a scope!.

The bear was 3 rifle lengths away.... stand 14 feet from your sofa, or love seat......Imagine its a bear !!

A rifle in my hands is much faster than a pistol in its holster.

The most helpful thing I ever learned from Jeff Copper was holding my finger pressed against the side of the trigger guard when my rifle is 'ready'. In most of the encounters I,ve had,, the bear left.... But sometimes it took awhile...gumboot out.

Gumboot, I cut and pasted the parts of your last post that were most interesting to me, and worth repeating.

I don't know if it's sacreligious to drop a tree over 2,000 years old, but it's got to mean something more than $$$. It's symbolic of something _______________ the blank is filled in by each of us depending on our personal belief system.

Less than 13 inch length of pull on a big bore works well for a no-neck, barrel-chested, thick-headed, x-logger, but generally it will get a scope implanted in most normally proportioned guy's face. My main problem with short stocks and recoil is that the pistol grip on most is not set up right either.

We have had this discussion before, and neither of us changed his mind on the subject. It may be a bad habit on my part, but the way I hold my right hand, around the pistol grip, allows my thumb to whack my nose if the stock is too short. In other words, the short stock, forces my face forward, and shortens the distance between my nose and my thumb. So I can't shoot well with a short stock. I am worrying about the position of my face, and thumb, so it's a big distraction from just paying attention to what I'm aiming at. It just doesn't feel right, and it's much worse if a short eye relief scope is involved. It's still a big issue even with a normal eye relief scope, but the short one will get me. I think that is why 13.5" LOP is considered average, but I'm sure it depends one's physical characteristics, and what we become used to.

So, don't preach short stocks, because they work for some, but not me. Saying they work for you is OK, because that is apparantly true. They are an absolute nusiance to me, and ruin an otherwise perfectly good rifle, and resale is hurt too. I wonder what others think about this.

I learned the same thing from Jeff Cooper, and others - about holding my trigger finger along side the trigger guard, and putting my finger on the trigger only when the shot is imminent. I think it’s common training with law enforcement, and military, and I think it is a very good habit.

Best regards, KB

KB Different people have different intrests in firearms.........Me ,, I look at a rifle as a tool that needs to fit....and Work ...Now fitting a rifle to someone SHOULDbe the most important part of the firearms manufactureing industry...........But even with 15 thousand dollar double rifles almost nothing is ever heard about rifle fit..........The LAST thing I would ever want to be considered is just an average Joe.....So my rifles must reflect my personal mindset..........Spray paint, file marks and all........Some people spend small fortunes on nothing other than regular trips to the urinal or wc..........or trips to Vegas............More guys should start setting their rifles up for them selves.......If they want to paceitly wait for an expensive gunsmith to do the work GREAT....I,ll spend the money on more bullets and powder..........And take the rifle out and kill stuff with it .....Which is the end result for me ... Something I can quickly and easily shut my intended quarry off like a switch......And if I find that a part for a rifle is junk or a rifle in paticular is junk,, I have no hesitation on pitching it in the bay.........Most people who get a rifle that is just right for them ought to do something to insure they never have to part with it............Don,t need a gun safe if your guns are safe because no one else wants them.... ......I wear a frame pack when I hunt , Alot of shots have not been doable in the past because of a standard length of pull and a padded pack strap..............And I always try to remember what a timber falling contractor that I worked for said "he said alot of things,but this one is appropiate" { When I go to work I alter the country side } my sentiments exactly !!!!On the ground and on the Hat...............

Originally posted by gumboot458:
"KB Different people have different intrests in firearms..."

OK, THAT'S A FAIR STATEMENT THAT PERHAPS WE DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW.

"......Me ,, I look at a rifle as a tool that needs to fit....and Work .."

OF COURSE, I DON'T KNOW TOO MANY WHO LIKE RIFLES THAT DON'T FIT AND WORK WELL, BUT SOME DO REGARD THEM AS MORE THAN A TOOL. THERE IS ONE GUY WHO POSTS HERE THAT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE - - RIFLES INSPIRE US TO GO TO INTERESTING PLACES, IN PURSUIT, AS HUNTERS. (I can't remember the exact quote)

"Now fitting a rifle to someone SHOULDbe the most important part of the firearms manufactureing industry."

I THINK THAT IS BEING ACCOMPLISHED PRETTY GOOD.

".......But even with 15 thousand dollar double rifles almost nothing is ever heard about rifle fit."

I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, BUT I SUSPECT THAT IT'S BECAUSE FOR THAT KIND OF MONEY, THE RIFLE IS MADE TO FIT THE CUSTOMER - I THINK IT IS JUST DONE THAT WAY.

".......The LAST thing I would ever want to be considered is just an average Joe.."

OF COURSE, BUT YOU NEEDN'T WORRY TO MUCH ABOUT THAT.

"...So my rifles must reflect my personal mindset..........Spray paint, file marks and all..."

TO EACH HIS OWN. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE NEED SOMETIMES FOR SPRAY PAINT. I'VE THOUGHT OF PAINTING SOME SYNTHETIC STOCKS MYSELF, AND EVEN PAINTING SOME OF THE SHINE OFF SOME OF THE RUGER SS RIFLES. I HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING HOW SPRAY PAINT SOMEHOW REPRESENTS A MIND SET. I MOSTLY THINK OF A CAN OF SPRAY PAINT AS A TOOL AND I'M THINKING OF THE OUTCOME, RATHER THAN A FRAME OF MIND.

"More guys should start setting their rifles up for them selves."

I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE. MOST PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH MOST OF THE FACTORY FEATURES, INCLUDING THE STOCK, BUT IT IS COMMON TO MAKE SMALL CHANGES BASED ON INDIVIDUAL PREFERANCE.

"If they want to paceitly wait for an expensive gunsmith to do the work GREAT."

NO PROBLEM THERE. PATIENCE IS CERTAINLY A VIRTUE WHEN DEALING WITH GUNSMITHS, ESPECIALLY MY GUNSMITH. BUT, IN THE PAST, I HAVE FOUND IT TO BE A COSTLY MISTAKE TO PUSH A GUNSMITH INTO HURRING. A LITTLE PRODDING USUALLY HAS THE DESIRED RESULTS.

"I,ll spend the money on more bullets and powder. And take the rifle out and kill stuff with it."

YEP

"Which is the end result for me. Something I can quickly and easily shut my intended quarry off like a switch."

HENCE THE BIG BLASTERS, BIG THUMP, RED MIST. I THINK TED NUGENT SHOULD INVITE YOU TO JOIN HIM ON ONE OF HIS SHOWS, SO THE TWO OF YOU COULD SHARE IDEAS, WARM FUZZIES, WARM POOLS OF BLOOD, AND REVEL IN THE SPIRIT OF THE WILD.

"And if I find that a part for a rifle is junk or a rifle in paticular is junk,, I have no hesitation on pitching it in the bay."

THAT'S AN INTERESTING SOLUTION.

"Most people who get a rifle that is just right for them ought to do something to insure they never have to part with it."

LIKE WHAT? AND WHAT FOR? IT'S FUN GETTING NEW STUFF, AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU OWNED THE RIFLES YOU CURRENTLY HAVE? NOT COUNTING THE SPRUCE KING.

"Don,t need a gun safe if your guns are safe because no one else wants them."

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU.

"I wear a frame pack when I hunt , Alot of shots have not been doable in the past because of a standard length of pull and a padded pack strap."

I FOR ONE, SEE NO GOOD REASON TO CUT A STOCK WITH THE IDEA THAT IT WILL FIT CORRECTLY OVER A PADDED PACK STRAP. I HAVE NEVER TAKEN A SHOT THAT WAY, AND I'LL BET FEW HAVE. IF I NEEDED TO SHOOT IN AN EMERGENCY, WITH A PACK ON MY SHOULDES, I WOULD JUST POINT AND SHOOT.

"And I always try to remember what a timber falling contractor that I worked for said "he said alot of things,but this one is appropiate" { When I go to work I alter the country side } my sentiments exactly !!!!On the ground and on the Hat"

INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE. WHAT'S ON THE HAT? AND WHAT'S GOING TO WORK - CHANGING THE LANDSCAPE - GOT TO DO WITH HUNTING, AND BEARS, AND RIFLE STOCKS, OTHER THAN BULL DOZER MENTALITY?

USUALLY, AS GOD ALTERS THE COUNTRY SIDE, I JUST TRY TO STAY OUT OF HARM'S WAY, AND JUST ENJOY THE CREATIONS.

Happy New Year -- Gumboot, and ALL

KB

Most Bushlers write their scale on their tin hat...... That is their writeing tablet .....Ever glassed a clearcut for game......or shot game in a unit,, or driven down a loggin road....The landscape got altered so you could..........Working in the woods is a great way to do a bunch of hunting ... Saves gas money too...........Your not mad about the girls gun are ya ?? The short length of pull is the correct length of pull !!! but its not TOO long when the pack is on...and 3 shirts and a coat

I got a place on the Yentna river in game management area 16B. We got a lot of bears, both black and brown. They chew up plastic gas cans, and insect repellent cans. They leave droppings and even have a scratching post made from a 12" spruce thats 20' from my fire pit.
I've got a mossburg 500 hanging on the wall with 3" brennekkes in the mag but I don't carry it with me every time I go outside. I put together a rifle to keep at the cabin and plan to bring it up in May.(yugo 24/47, 8x57, boyds JRS stock, ghost ring sights,Timney trigger,Timney/bueller safety,250gr woodleigh RN at2350fps). I think it will make a good hunting rig for moose and bear in the thick forest around my cabin and I won't have to fly a rifle with me every time I go up.
Neither one of these firearms is what I would consider perfect defensive weapons against a bear charge but its what I've got and what I'll use. The problem for me is I don't always have a gun with me when I'm up there. I maybe cutting firewood or fishing or working on the cabin, any number of thinks. Even sitting by the fire at night I don't always have a weapon with me.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is I have some experience in bear country and although they can be dangerous at times if I ever felt the need to gear up for combat every time I stepped off the cabin porch I'd find something else to do with my time.
I've always felt people were more dangerous than bears.