Mr. GB-458:

"Harry ,, do you know how COLD it is up there????"

That is in large part why this is a hypothetical discussion instead of a mad dash to purchase a bear gun! :-)

Mr Color and Mr Roof:

I have two thoughts on the semi-automatic shotgun that come from my law enforcement perspective, not a hunter/bear defense point of view.

First, I am concerned with cycling the first round into the chamber under stress and with time limits. A pump shotgun gets the first round cycled as fast as can be. A semi-automatic can be cycled with the left hand (right handed shooter) pulling back in a pumping like motion, but catching the charging lever with the left hand pinkie. Perhaps it will work, but it is a compromise.

Second, a good cop with an 870 can get five rounds down range before a good cop can get five rounds down range with a semi-automatic. A buddy of mine wins a lunch from time to time with this bet.

Having said that, one very real downside to a pump action was already mentioned by Mr. Color...short-shucking. There are immediate action drills to remedy this problem, but not what you want to be doing when time is of the essence! Practise is your friend with a pump action shotgun!

Very thought provoking responses. Thank you.

I'll ask this one more time...has anyone conducted penetration tests with slugs or can you refer me to any such tests? My concern is a big hunk of lead hitting hard but not going in far enough to hit the vitals.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

"First, I am concerned with cycling the first round into the chamber under stress and with time limits."


In real Bear country you better have one in the pipe as soon as you hit the trail! & a 12ga 600g Breneke @ 25yds will go through a 4" green spruce log, 36" of compressed wet catalogs
(soaked in a 55gal drum for a week) and aprox 12" of sand and still weigh 595g

Harry, your point is well taken, HOWEVER: I spent 30 years in the military and my dearest friend was a SWAT guy with the state police for about 10 of his 20. I've also dealt with Bill Porter after I graduated from Smith & Wessons academy on firearms. All that tells me, the same as I know you're aware, the best cop on the range might be the worst guy with a gun in his hand while under duress. I saw a drug dealer hit twice, both non-fatal hits while taking 28 shots from officers. In combat, I'm sure I killed a bunch of monkeys during my lone experience in Vietnam (Air Force puke). With a bear, the cycling of an auto should be the last of your concerns. I would never venture out in bear country without one in the pipe to begin with. I've seen too many deer hunters snap on an empty chamber for me to play around in bear country. Secondly, because of that, cyclic rate is really quite superfluous. You may only get one shot. I've seen guys who could really work a pump, but that rate has been hindered somewhat with modern firearms. With the OLD 870, you could pull back on the forearm, fire, and the slide would open the breech. The new ones require "forward pressure" in order to work. (My wife, much to my and her chagrin) learned this during a recent deer hunt. She shot at a buck and missed and could not get the pump to recycle. When I found her, it only took a second to realize that she's been so tense that she'd maintained constant pressure on the slide and if would NOT unlock. We left the woods and she's now the proud owner of a semi-auto.) Again, this in a situation that could cost you your life in a bear confrontation. BTW, I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle and a H&K Benelli (will cycle an extra shell held between the magazine and the chamber with a plug in the gun) that will give your guy with a pump gun a bit of a challenge. Just for giggles, I've had 5 empty casings in the air at one time. Tom Knapp could probably get 7 or 8 or 9 I suppose, but I'm just an average guy and not a celebrity gunner.

Harry, I can't answer your question on penetration either. That, too, is superfluous. You don't want the bear to die of internal failure, you want the bear dead NOW. Only a head shot with anything will do that. Failing that, your last best hope is to break down some skeletal structure to impede the bear from turning you into processed protein. You need to break a shoulder or sever the spine. You can't afford for an attacking bear to live 2 seconds. In two seconds, it can cover 30 yards, break your neck and be walking away before expiring. Damn penetration.

Mr. Sturm:

“& a 12ga 600g Breneke @ 25yds will go through a 4" green spruce log, 36" of compressed wet catalogs (soaked in a 55gal drum for a week) and aprox 12" of sand and still weigh 595g “

Thanks for the penetration report. That should be enough by anyone’s measure!

Mr. Roof:

My personal appreciation for your service to our country.

I can’t argue your two hits out of 28 shots situation...I have second hand knowledge of several shoot outs along that line. However, not all law enforcement officers react like that...and I have first and second hand knowledge of a number of these shootings.

Your Benelli is reported to be the hands down fastest cycling semi-automatic shotgun. My only point is that a pump action shotgun can be worked quickly, in the same neighborhood as a semi-automatic. You might argue the semi-automatic is faster, I might argue differently. However, to me the speed of follow up shots does not disadvantage the pump action.

You bring up a valid point on slide release characteristics. Be it a pump or semi-automatic, it is important to be very familiar with the weapon.

One note...I have taken pump shotguns into a variety of different high-risk situations. I have never cycled a round into the chamber until a potential target is in sight. I would rather be just that little bit slower and have a safe weapon, than risk an accidental discharge. My understanding of the safety of an 870 is that it blocks the trigger, but not the hammer, allowing it to go off under certain circumstances even when the trigger is not pulled. I have no first hand knowledge of this, but this was what I was told when I went through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center Firearms Instructor course in 1986.

Bottom line: You’re very well armed with your Benelli and it is a fine choice for bear defense.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Harry, you know we're really weird creatures of habit. I learned quickly to do differently in bear country because an agressive bear will often not GIVE you any time to be safe. Bear hunting and people hunting are different animals all together. But like you, I can't explain my dilema. For years I had a S&W Model 60 stoked full in my bedside table. Never gave it a second though. Then I got a pair of Sig Saur 229 and 239 in .357 sig. For the life of me I can't keep them with one in the tube. I have a carry permit and the 229 in my truck is also empty with a loaded magazine. Pragmatically it doesn't make ANY sense at all after having carried the Mod. 60 for so long. I guess it's the same reason I won't own a Glock. I just don't like not having a visible, outside hammer and safety. Now what sense does any of that make? But I do it.

When it comes to stopping charges I think history has proven that nothing is better than a double rifle. The heavy african calibers will double your 2k fps of energy and you have another instant backup shot. Just watch some of mark sullivans videos. Anything that will poleaxe a huge hippo that fast will surely stomp a bear that is at best half thier size.

Bear, that might well be true, but I'd venture to say that MOST OF US don't have the $25,000 that a "cheap" double rifle would cost along with the availability of ammo in the badlands of the north. Africa still suffers from the British influence there, but even the leopard hunters go in for followups with shotguns and buckshot. And 800 pound griz and a 2000 pound hippo make slightly different circumstances. Usually hippos don't stalk man intending to eat him and neither to M'bogo. They're simply pissed. (How many safaris could I go on for the price of that double rifle? I know I could go to Alaska 4 or 5 times.)

My top three choices would be my 86 Winchester in 450/110 shooting a 460 grain hard cast at 2200 fps or a 400 grain kodiak bullet at 2400. It has ashley sights for close in work.

My 21 inch barreled P17 in 450 Watts shooting factory lott ammo. Williams Foolproof sight with arpeture removed.

My Remington 870 with rifled barrel, ghost ring sights added and extended magazine shooting Dixie Terminator slugs. I am very comfortable with this shotgun and I can shoot doubles while dove hunting in Texas.

Mr. Roof,

I can identify with what you’re saying. It was a stretch for me to transition from a good old revolver to a Sig Sauer 9mm 12 years ago. I am now considering the leap to a Glock in .40. What bothers me the most is the lack of an exposed hammer. It doesn’t bother the younger folks but it doesn’t seem right to me. By the way, I was walking around earlier today with a S&W Model 60 tucked into my belt. There is not a thing wrong with them!


Mr. 91,

I like your choices...especially the 870!


A Merry Christmas to one and all!

Harry C.

** DOUBLE **

Don't want to go against THEBEAR_78's position ; -- ( apparently he's running some resentment about my opinion ..... for some reason ) . -- So this is not just a knee-jerk , arguement , against .

-- But want to make some comments about the Double , in terms of this Thread .

I considered it seriously , as specialized Charge Medicine , -- mainly because of the credentials earned in Africa .

My first gut reaction , -- was one of serious concern about having a Top-Predator Charging at close ranges , -- AND ONLY HAVING TWO DAMN SHOTS !

I would like to be able to keep on firing until I was down and out , -- if circumstances allowed .

The African P.H.'s use Doubleguns as back-up rifles , on really huge and Dangerous animals .

-- They use a technique called , -- " Hold your fire until the thing's so close you mostly can't miss , -- and then tap with a cartridge that's so overwhelming , -- that you will actually STOP the charge . ( This is not always the case , -- but it illustrates a point ) .

The point is that the rifle , Cartridge , and shooting technique , combined ; -- TRADE-OFF ,
Fire-power and high-capacity magazines , -- for two very dependable , and powerful shots .

" Very Dependable " , means that the better Doubles have two entirely independent firing mechanisims , so that even if a squib-load lodges in the first barrel , - you're still in business . -- But note ; -- you're almost out of time too , -- and you only got ONE ! left , ( in case you're NOT out of time ) !

Ask yourself honestly ; -- you've got our hypothetical Bruin closing a 37 Ft. per second , -- you're lucky and you've got , say , five seconds left to settle the thing's hash .

Would you rather have a highly dependable modern battle weapon spitting out .308 Win. 180 Gr.'s at 5 rounds a second , -- a solid , continuous STREAM of fire until the animal reached your chops ?

Or would you really rather try to get a bead on that bobbing-weaving , - " Engine Of Destruction " , -- thousand-pound Bear ! and have two shots ; -- whereupon the first shot will take your muzzle up to the moon !!

Two independent mechanisms was important back when Doubles earned their reputation ; -- because the sidelocks , ( and all weapons using Leaf springs , -- were fragile , -- and broke a lot .

I don't know , but it's no contest in my mind .

It's point , pull the trigger , and feed the muzzle into the incoming threat ; -- versus , try to aim two shots under a tremendous adrenaline load , on a bobbing-weaving target .

And , if you think you'd look silly carying a FAL rifle around the outskirts of Anchorage ; --- well , -- I think you'd look a little , -- " on-the-fringe " -- with big-assed Elephant-Double , as well . ---
---------- JMHO .

--------------- MMCOUGAR .

I have every confidence that grouped , point-blank , rapid fire , will make hamburger in the last few feet , -- when you can't hardly miss , -- and each bullet will penetrate into vitals .

---- JMHO , --- MMCOUGAR .

I have actually shot full auto a few times and can tell you I would be much more confident with the double rifle. Maybe I just never figured out the trick to it but the muzzle walked so bad that on the 4th or 5th shot the muzle was above tree line. It would be very hard to control a continuous stream of shots and still hit the bobbing CNS of a bear. My practice on the bouncing ballon tied to a RC car antena has proven to me that I am much more likely to make that one good shot over many quick shots, and with the double you have that quick second shot for the very last second.

Bear attacks generally happen so quickly that 5 seconds would be a VERY long attack. 2-3 seconds is probably a more realistic expectation of responce time. I'd be surprised if anyone could get more than one or two shots even with an auto or double.

MM , Not to pick sides but The bear 78 is correct on the time... And ,,,,,,As a rule 1 shot in the thoracic cavity , from a good 45/70 load or a 375 H&H or plus Vel. knocks the hell out of a bear............Genrally Big bears don,t charge , they run for their life.. They didn,t get big by fooling with people........But a 400 lb brown bear or grizzley is an absolutely formidable opponent....essespecially after dark......Which makes the combat light such a great idea. George a Merkel 470 sells for $11,495 at Great Northern Guns ..........I know I was holding it this fall.....Champlins usually has Great working doubles in the 9- 13 K $ range The Searcy- Kriegoff- Chaupis-Blaser.all can be had for less than 15 thousand...If you price out reconstructive plastic surgery.. Thats chump change!!!!!!!!!!!!My wife will have a 9.3 x74 R O/U single trigger double ASAP.....The limiting factor is the [possible] part....Sporting firearms are for me at least ,with my short fingers. Much faster and easier to get off safe and to the shoulder than a battle rifle.....I,ve shot ak,s sks,h&k 91 ar 15 & m16 Ive handled FN FAL,s and LARS and AR10,s .... The easiest battle rifle for me to pop off safe and shoulder is the M1A or Garand....But I don,t want to talk about the whole man wounder thing.......................................If like Joel the safty is not a problem with the Marlin , swiping the hammer is as fast is probably anything........ I don,t own a shotgun either ...And have always done very well with my M77mkII 458 win mag. And different 17 and 14 Enfields.............jnc91 who made your 450 watts? Wanna trade ?/?

Gumboot, it must be our personalities. We argue and you nitpick. The difference between $9,000, $11,000, and $25,000 versus $1000 for a Benelli or $600 for a Remington 1187 is one helluva difference to MOST of us I presume. Even the Garand with it's ineffective .30 caliber bullet is a grand aside from being a dog to lug around all day. Especially when you're talking self-defense firearms for the possibility of a man-eating bear. Most of us have health insurance that is intended to cover other things than bear attacks.

I have two friends who live in an old trappers cabin in the Gateway to the Arctic National Park on "grandfathered" land. He has a stainless M70 in .338 for himself and a 12 guage stainless stoked with an unplugged tube of Brenneke slugs for his wife. He tells me that when there's a bear on the porch, he looks for the 12 gauge. So would I.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
jnc91 who made your 450 watts? Wanna trade ?/?

H.B. Anderson himself made it. I found it for $385 at a small gunshop in east Texas. It is one of those never get rid of rifles.

I have the answer of your double rifle prayers george. I picked this up at walmart for $9.99, very affordable. Its a nice compact double rifle shooting 52cal bullets, they aren't terribly heavy but they have great S.D., penetration shouldn't be a problem!!!! Here it is modeled by my 3 year old.




In all seriousness I think that you are best off with something you feel comfortable with. It will help you remain calm and avoid the cunfusion of panic that can set in when your surprised by a bear. A clear level head is your absolute best defense along with a good sense of situational awareness and your surroundings. That will make a much bigger difference than your choice of weapon. If a shotgun warms your heart then take the scattergun, but make mine a heavy rifle.

IF you are looking for a dependable FAST shotgun in the semiauto catagory..
all I can say is for over 20 years I used to shoot action and pins with a Bennelli M1Super 90. OVER 40,000 rounds of slug and buck shot in competition. Some days over 300 rounds without cleaning, in just a few hours.
NEVER failed and NEVER replaced a part.
For speed I have taken 5 pins with 5 rounds 00buck in 1.8 seconds... and I never waited for the gun. In practice I have run it at 1.4 and still never waited for the gun.
I also used one for LE entry work and for close quarters will take it over ANY subgun anyone makes.

jcn91 ,, Ben Forbes 450 WATTS was made by HB Anderson .. I believe in Yakama Wash.Prior to W W II... It had been converted to cock on opening ....I have handled it and it sure points where I look REAL easy..........There is no telling how many bears he killed with it..ALOT!!!!I think Glen Morgan,s was made there also.........Both those men were of a small phsical stature............. Ben told me a large boar had him out in armpit deep water after he had shot it a bunch of times,with his 30/06 after the client had shot it a couple times with his 30/06..The bear wandered up into the brush and eventually died........When he got to town he got ahold of Mr Anderson and got the rifle... Anderson had made the rifle for a guy going to Africa but the guy didn,t go and he had the rifle......Wounded brown bears didn,t push him around after that he said.......Glen Morgan told me a fairley simular story at the range in Sitka... Glen was a handloader and liked to play around with different loads.He said he had been under a bear once but that there wasn,t much left of the bears head as he shot it , as it leaped.....The 500 gr old barnes semi spitzer soft point ripped its head open like... if you smashed a full beer can with your foot....Thats what he said...The bear squared 9"4" as best they could measure it ...It had been wounded by a client....He thot my 500 A-Square was a nice bear rifle and relly liked it was built on an Enfield action....I didn,t mean to go on so but those men had relly been there done that for alot of decades and I have found their advice to be life saveing..............

Oh George ...Alot of us bush Alaskans don,t have any insurance at all.......Thats what a good rifle is ! ! ! ! insurance!! Its like this guy from the Illiamna area says !! Ya gotta be Tough if your gonna live in Alaska!!!!

LIke I said before its all personnalt preferance. this works for me and my wife.





In the 2nd pic I just shown what I did about the safety.

Now if your a manly man, then just carry one of these and your all set.

Funny you mention HB Anderson rifles that were in use by Alaskan guides. I was told by the guy who sold it to me that it had been brought back to Texas from Alaska by its previous owner. The only thing I have killed with it so far is an over aggressive Armadillo but I'm sure that the rifle has been there and done that plenty of times in years past. If I have my way it will have plenty more chances.
Jeff

Definitely not enough eye relief. I'm assuming both men are already deaf. LOL

** POOR MANS DOUBLE **

It may seem that I'm arguing hard against the Double for Bear defense . -- That ain't quite it .

It's more that , now that there are super dependable , Military-tested , Semi-Autos ; -- I'm figuring that's the design that's got more going for it . -- ( Always in perspective of HARRY-C's original scenario ) .

I recognize many inputs , here , as having validity . -- Yes , Full-auto's can climb , -- but there are techniques and hardware that can defeat that climb . -- Yes , Bear Attacks , most often don't allow time for a third ,
( and , indeed , sometimes, a second shot ) !

But there are also circumstances , ( who cares if it's only 15 % ? ) , where you could use 5 or 8 or 30 !

One of the old LEO , Pisteleros with bocoup shoot-out experience , ( Evan Marshall ? , -- maybe Mason Williams ? ) , -- used to say , -- " THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY ROUNDS WITHOUT RELOADING , -- IN A REAL GUNFIGHT . "
---- Amen and Amen .

I'm suggesting that it's ditto with a Bear Attack .

-- Ever since the dawn of automatic weapons and modern warfare , one thing is enormously clear . --- Lots of grouped / directed bullets down-range , is vastly superior to any other concept . -- ( If the left bullet don't get you , the right one will ) .
--- And that includes against armour that makes a Rhino look like Cookies-and-Milk .

Funny things happen under the stresses of a close-Bear Attack . -- Short Stroking of weapons , being only one of MANY . -- Most of these become non-problems if all you have to do is pull the F _ _ _ ing trigger again .

A Double with a Simba or Dugga-Boy at 50 Ft. , -- is an EXPERTS Rifle .

If a Child has faced half a doz. or so , close-in Charges , -- and knows from experience that he possesses a cool head . -- Or if you've been under fire a lot in Combat . -- You might know , pretty well , what to expect from yourself .

Then , a double may make good sense on a Grizly- type Bear . --- But in the absence of that , I'd suggest that NOTHING beats another chance coming into the chamber .

Further , there are many documented cases of human animals , full of adrenaline , shooting back at the Officer with half a dozen handgun rounds on-board . -- But very few once a load of OO is delivered to the chest .

Point being , that , all other things being equal , -- there is an enormous advantage in Stopping-Power , -- to MULTIPLE HITS .

But everybody is entitled to what they feel comfortable with in the face of such doins' .

I'D STILL SAY it's wise to listen to what works in Combat with a million different guys pulling the trigger ; -- rather than to that little Ego-voice , that says ;

-- " Hell , I'd be able to stand there cool as hell , and put a bullet dead-center in that Bruins Massive Head ; -- why , how could I miss , -- that noggin is TWO FEET across " !

Among P.H.'s , the Doubles already have serious competition from the big Mausers . -- Many an experienced P.H. PREFER , the Hi-cap. Bolt rifles , for one reason ; -- that third , fourth or fifth round that can sometimes save your life .

--- But in another specific circumstance , -- the speed of the Double's second round , ( with no complicated intervening fine-motor movements ), - will also save the situation .

Three observations ; -- It's a trade-off , - it's a trade-off , and it's a trade-off .

Similarly between the Classic Double Stopping Rifle , -- and a Semi-auto Shotgun with Brennekes , and/or a Battle-Rifle like the above-mentioned Garand , or for that matter , a Full Auto FAL in NATO .308 .

I know what I want , -- and don't deny anybody's choice of survival equipment .

Nose To The Trail , -------- MMCOUGAR .

george, yeah it cracked my melon on 1 shot, It was set-up for the guy who owns it and I learned real quick about setting back on this rifle. its not like mine on set-up.

basically, if you guys want to roll out SWAT every time you want to hike up here, go for it. I dont care.

What I use may not be to your liking but its what we are comfortable with. nothing wrong with a shotgun, lever or bolt. what can you shoot well with?

To answer the original querry, I'd go for a lite,short,and heaviest bullet that would fit in the magazine 45-70. The whole shotgun idea doesn't appeal to me 1 iota as they seem to be more of a deperate situation solution at best. A 30-06 w/220 noslers would be my 2nd choice.

If your intent on using the shotgun you should check out the dixie slugs. They are heavy hardcast slugs designed for use agains heavy dangerous game out of fully rifled barrels. 600gr @ 1400fps is fairly impressive.

www.dixieslugs.com

Waterrat, just what part of BEAR DEFENSE weren't you able to comprehend. Desperation should certainly be a word to us and your piddly assed choices of rifles are not going to STOP a bear unless you kill it with a head shot. If you're that good and that calm while a bear is eating your ass off, then I'm sure a .22 would suffice for you. I doubt many who've contributed to this understand the magnitude of the question. This is not for bear HUNTING. In Alaska, without HUNTING BEARS you can only shoot one in defense of your life. That means that most likely the bear is within FEET of you and not YARDS. That means, as others have said, the likelihood of a follow up shot is a pipedream and the fact that the bear will EVENTUALLY die from the wound you inflict is of absolutely no consequence.

I think that's what's fired me up on this posting. Some of you are talking about HUNTING bears. Many of you are reciting Field & Stream logic to a DESPERATE situation. It does, in fact take a tough person to live in Alaska, but it takes a damned tougher one to survive a situation that the questioner asked. In the military, we told people that were answering questions to make sure they RFTQ'd it first. That means READ THE FRIGGIN QUESTION before you answer.

Hey Gumboot,

I thought I read on an earlier thread that you were a proponent of the 30 caliber rifles for bears.

I stand corrected Geo! You have got yourself pretty worked up over a forum posting.

George-

I doubt there are too many bears of any kind walking around in delaware, on the contrary there are LOTS of bears and big ones walking around lake iliamna, I know I've been there more than a few times.


The thing that gets me is that a lot of these guys will never run into a bear, or even have the possibility yet they think that they are better equiped to make these decisions than people who "walk the walk" every day.

Shotguns have a reputation of being iffy and ineffective on big bears and just about everyone I know carries a large caliber rifle when bear defense is the issue at hand. If your dead set on an auto loader why not shoot one of the AR15 in 458 socom or 50 boewolf, they should be nice and light repeaters.

Someone stated:

"READ THE FRIGGEN QUESTION." &

"This is not bear hunting."


Maybe some of you should should read the title of this forum: ALASKA HUNTING FORUM!



Merry Christmas and a happy, prosperous, & healthy New Year to all.

Joe

"One of the old LEO , Pisteleros with bocoup shoot-out experience , ( Evan Marshall ? , -- maybe Mason Williams ? ) , -- used to say , -- " THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MANY ROUNDS WITHOUT RELOADING , -- IN A REAL GUNFIGHT . "
---- Amen and Amen ."

One of my favorite quotes is from a Clint Eastwood movie..."I don't want to die from a lack of shooting back!"

Merry Christmas Alaskans and Alaska Enthusiasts!

Respectfully,
Harry C.

Ovis, the forum is "hunting" but THREAD was about "bear defense". RFTQ.

Bear, you're right on all counts. And actually, when I'm there, I'm carrying the .338 or the .375 or the .300 for particular business. I found out quite early that being in a tent with a bear pushing the canvas in and only a rifle for protection is about as useful as having windshield wipers on a cat's ass. I have a .454 Casull or a .460, or a .500 for bear medicine. I wouldn't GO to Alaska with a shotgun, but we both know that SOME people shouldn't be in Alaska to begin with. If THEY care for their safety, the shotgun is probably a safer choice for them and the Alaskans. No bears in Delaware, but I've been close enough to them in other places for them to gain the utmost respect, caution, and PREcaution.

I agree with you on that george, a long gun does you little good if your laying on your back, or have been knocked on to the ground. Thats why no matter what I'm doing out and about, be it hunting, fishing, atv riding, or hiking, I always have my 44 strapped to my chest full of 300gr hard cast max loads. I had a 500 S&W once and while it was anice pistol it was still to heavy even with the 4" barrel for comfortable carry. They don't make any really nice chest holsters for it and it will pull your pants down in a hurry if you wear it on your hip, or wear a whole in your arm and side if you use a shoulder rig. The 44 is fairly light, and super handy in my survival sheath chest holser, sits there along with two speed loaders, a knife, and a surfire flashlight. Out of the way of the shoulder straps of the pack, and above the waders for easy access. Its convienence allows me to carry it 100% of the time without any complaints.

Mr. Roof,

How many days have you spent in a tent in Alaska with a bear "pushing the canvas in?" Or, how much time in a tent in Alaska, sans the bear.

"but we both know that SOME people shouldn't be in Alaska to begin with" says Mr. Roof.

I couldn't agree more, George.

Joe

Ovis, it actually happened just like I described only once, but you probably already know that once was more than enough. That was a week sheep hunting the drainages above Lake Klatina near the Copper River basin. I spent a week in a tent on the south slope of the Brooks off the Nigu near Etivlik, but the griz that we saw only came within 50 yards. (Don't have a clue how many I didn't see. LOL)

George your starting to become a mouthy DSMF... Right out of the shoot you need to apoligize to Waterat ..............There are FEW people on here who I will defer to... But when it comes to North of Southeast hunting in Alaska,, .. Waterrat is the Master...........for volumes of big trophys you probably find anyone to match him .... from reading your posts I can tell you , and I would do so to your face,,,,You wouldn,t make a pimple on his Ass.............You may remember roofy that you are on the Alaska forum.... We are not on the Deleware forum.....If you don,t have a good volume of experience with Alaska game,, In this thread ,,bear ,then why not shut up and pay attention...... We wouldn,t be so stupidly crass and ignorantly sense less to try to tell you how to deal with , say traffic or useless government employees in deleware..........Or smog or what to shoot a crack head with.....you should find it interesting that most of the ALASKAN,S who have posted their thots on this subject ,,,,have all been pretty much in agreement.......The reason why is experience!!!!!!!! Not theory........I do nit pick ,, I am a fuddy duddy .. But I have and continue to be there and do that And I enjoy doing so!!!!!!!!!!!!One of the proofs is I live here not in Deleware...... Watch your mouth.........If we wanted to read posts on the [ busting some druggy crack head forum we would visit those sites .......}}This is the Alaska Hunting Forum.....

*** SPEED AND PANIC ***

It's about time for the , -- " You're Beating a Dead-Horse ; -- This subject's so worn out ; -- and , -- Is this stale Thread still running ? ; ----- arguments to appear .

So let me say first , -- that I'm really interested in this specific topic . -- Every time it goes around , I learn as much from counterpoint to my thinking , -- as from those who agree with my conclusions .

THEBEAR_78 , made the point a while back , that you don't think in terms of 30 or 50 Yards when planning pure Bruin-Defense , -- you think in terms of 20 ft ! -- I agree . When planning strategy and choosing weapons for life or death emergencies , -- only those not playing with a full deck , decide choices based on the BEST scenario .

GEORGE ROOF , ( IMHO ) , -- has the long and short of it , with regards to the toughness and tenacity of the Large Bears , -- AND , the right approach to choosing ,
" Enough_gun " . -- However ,
" Enough-Gun " , can include the element of Fire-Power , and High-Capacity Magazines , not just caliber and ME .

Good Friend of mine , ( who is also interested in Attacks ) , and I ; -- watched a Natl. Geographic Wildlife documentary that showed a BIG Boar Grizley , in all out Attack-mode . -- Damn thing pulled up short of the Camera man , -- who , I hope , learned a hell of a lesson , or was in a steel cage w / 2" bars !

It looked like the beginning of the charge was around THEBEAR_78'S , -- 20 FT. range .

The reason I'm telling this , is because , I don't think most , ( especially pure-Hunters ) , -- picture this thing correctly .

Anytime your brain tells you that you're about to die , -- it's maximum , knock-your-sox-off , adrenaline time . -- Some can function under it , -- some can't .

Further , -- there's a BIG Psychological difference , when you think you're in a fight where you have a chance ; --- and when you think you're going to die , for sure .

Not bragging , ( because if you've been there , it ain't a bragging matter , -- just makes you determined never to leave your Okole sticking out , ever again ) ;
-- but I've been in both circumstances .

Some predators have been known to make other higher Mammals , ( including humans ) , freeze , just by the presentation of an attack .


Reason I'm mentioning all this , is because if you've ever seen that Natl. Geographic VCR , of the upset Boar , at point-blank ; -- I mean , My God , -- you havn't even imagined FERROCIOUS , until you see something like this .

Shelton , in his Book about Bear Attacks / Behavior , -- tells the Biologist's Scientific conclusions , that the Griz. Species developed as a Barren-ground Bear with no place to hide , and no trees to climb for protection .

Therefore , he evolved the defense-mechanism , ( like Patton in WWII ) , -- when in doubt , or feeling threatened , --- Attack , Attack , Attack .

The adrenaline load experience , -- when you think you're going to die , FOR SURE ; -- is much more intense than when you're in a fight that maybe , COULD , result in death or injury .

--- Point , is , -- that Charging , Exploding , Bore , in the VCR , -- was really impressive .

--- Would definitely mesmerize your brain , on the instinctive level , -- that you were going to die , for sure .

We ain't got claws , -- we ain't got long Caynine Teeth , -- and we ain't got skin like a Rino , -- and our instinctual brain , -- knows it , the second the explosion occurs .

With ranges like 20 - 40 Ft. , and Bear's speed , you might not even have time to shoulder the weapon . -- So now things like Hip-Shooting is no longer a stunt or cowboy- action ; -- it becomes a practical technique that is demanded by the circumstances , if you are to survive .

When you consider all of the , REAL , circumstances common in Bear Attacks ; ( and there's lots of old-wives tales and pure B.S. floating around on these Forums ) ; .....

these things could scare away larger predators by the viciousness , and aggressiveness of their short fuses .

So that's what we're up against .

When I consider the type of weapon necessary to meet these conditions , -- I immediately , instinctively go to Shotgun , -- and then to Semi-auto . -- It's common sense , -- shotguns are known by all to be the best for very close-in combat .

I reiterate , and agree with those above ; -- that lesser actions are clearly too slow .

-- One must also be able to operate the weapon instantly from any angle , ( even while falling , or after re- acquiring a lost / dropped weapon ) .

It's Auto - Shotgun Country , SportsFans .

( Granted , that choice # 2 would be the Double Stopping Rifle ..... ( Out of Africa )) .

------ Nose To The Trail , -- MMCOUGAR .

Minor correction.....
Barrow Alaska is not even close to the Alaska Pipeline. It is several hundred miles to the west. Not many Brown or Grizzly bears there, only Polar bears.

MM ..,.,It,s kind of ,to each his own ..........but the auto shotn gun thing is silly.......A guide gun works fine preformance wise,.,.,but the higher velocity rounds work better,, but that is not saying the 45/70 doesn,t work well...,..,and so far Alaska isn,t full of charging bears.....It ,s VERY rare....36 -60" of penetration is whats needed and straight penetration.......Any thing is better than nothing, and the very old line of thinking that 4000 ft lbs muz eng.. provided the bullet , integrity, diameter and sufficent weight are there....Are very good rules of thumb.......And if all you have is a20" barreled 375 Ruger you will be very well armed,,,for all your big game hunting and bear protection needs..

Hi Mr. TJ,

Thanks for setting me straight. To be honest I wasn't certain where Barrow, AK was until I looked on a map after the conversation. I can't vouch for the accuracy of anything except what my buddy actually said to me, not the accuracy of his source.

To be fair, my buddy did specify that it was polar bears. I just didn't include this detail in what I wrote earlier.

Merry Christmas!

Respectfully,
Harry C.