Gumboot, speaking of "mouthy", you ain't doing bad yourself. But it's DelAware, only 2 "e's". And I don't have any doubts about your comments on waterrat. ANYONE who lives there has my respect, but from having been there more than once, I know that the majority of people in Alaska on any given day DON'T LIVE THERE. Even some who do live there only stay during the sunlit day period and then haul ass back down to the "lower 48". I guess I'll have to plead ignorance about this being the "Alaska" forum. I didn't know that if you don't live there you're not allowed to tell someone they're FOS without genuflecting. Since Delaware is so small and we don't have a forum for hunting muskrats, bluecrabs, and Canada geese, where can I get permission to visit the other forums on this site?

I've met some really great people in Alaska, NWT, and the western Canadian provinces, but I know AK has it's share of IMF's just like everyplace else has. I'll hold my opinion of you out awhile longer as you may just be protective of your own personal lifestyle and ways of doing things as am I.

As I said earlier, however, the search engines on the Internet guide many people to areas like this when they're considering a trip. You and I both know Alaska makes one helluva lot of money of "eco-tourism" (surprised hell outa me when I encountered them) and fishermen. Many of them come with the big bears in the back of their minds. The guides I encountered either carried the brush shotguns or big bore pistols as "St. Christopher's medals" I presume. So you're not talking to them when you start espousing big bore, ultra fast rifles. Cougar had a great post above on those types, but nevertheless, the last thing native Alaskans need is for some IMF eco-tourist to be turned into bear shit. When you use this forum like the rest of the Internet, you're talking to the WORLD whether you want to believe it or not. And the world is full of IMF's who will believe anything they read. I don't fall in that category.

Now if you want to know what we hunt down this way, I'll invite you to go to Amazon.com and type in my name in the "book" section. Order one of mine so I can afford to come back and see you sometime soon. I'll look you up and let you tell me stuff to put in my next one. LOL

George.,., Thats cool ,, but I,ve asked myself , Why,, Do so many people who come here lug funny contraptions ... And call them bear guns .. Instead of a nice easy carrying rifle....No doubt money has something to do with it.... But I think just as much , incorrect knowledge from people who should know better...............Have you visited the 470 MBOGO site ........The video,s are alot of fun and very informative..Watch the ladies shoot the rifles.......Recoil is probably all they want to handle.. But they handle it.....!!!!Just like my 135lb 5'5" tall wife handles my little 458........She isn,t a great shot with it but @ 10-20 feet she does just fine............If a person looks around just a bit they can find a 338 win mag on up or any 7 mag and have it rebarreled at Shaw or with an Adams,& Bennet barrel in 458 win and be well set... Most people have enough stuff laying around they can trade at a hock shop and end up w/ a nice little rifle.........As I stated in other posts , I,ve never read or heard of anyone getting chewed when they had a shotgun with them..........But ALOT of wounded bears have got away......Same with pistols......They Don,t go far when a 350 gr plus 458 bullet goes thru their chest.......And a lever action rifle dispensis them with the greatest of ease......

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:

I've met some really great people in Alaska, NWT, and the western Canadian provinces, but I know AK has it's share of IMF's just like everyplace else has. I'll hold my opinion of you out awhile longer as you may just be protective of your own personal lifestyle and ways of doing things as am I.

From personal experience North Idaho & Alaska are about equal on the IMF population LOL Good luck GR!

For me, the 870 with slugs is the best choice. I shot that shotgun a lot more than my rifle and am much more familar with it. I have simply changed barrels and used it as my bear defense gun in the summer.

I am lucky to shot 2 boxes out of my rifle a year. I shoot twice that many times some weekends waterfowl hunting with my shotgun. I am so much more used to the safety and working the action that I think if I had to kill a bear at 10 feet my chances are better with the shotgun and good brenneke slugs. I don't think it is a better caliber or action but I am familiar with it.

If you carry a rifle and shot a rifle more I would reccomend that...but, for me a shotgun is a better choice FOR A DEFENSE weapon.

-phil

Harry, no sweat. I just thought if your friend is going to be a security guard for the pipeline, he should know where it is.
Andersons Gun Shop on Yakima Ave in Yakima Washington! Be damn. I forgot all about that name. I bought my first gun from him. Also my second and third. I was just a kid but they treated me like anyone else with money. I've still got all three of the guns! Small world.

I don,t have a copy around but I think HB is mentioned in P.O. Akley,s books

Mr. Roof,

I think, at the risk of your seeing me as an IMF, you'll find that most of the Alaska hands on this forum have lots of bear experience.......you say you spent a bit of time on the south side of the Brooks Range....I spent about six weeks in a tent/sheep-grizzly camp there(working)just last year and a number of years prior with about the same amount of time each fall and there are lots of bears there......actually part of my job is to "catalog" the bears in the area....I, too, prefer a rifle for bear defense but, at my cabin, on a salmon stream, there is a loaded shotgun;
an ancient, first run, Rem 870 12ga pump.....do I think it's the best choice? No, but my wife shoots it much better and is more comfortable w/the shotgun.....we've only had one bear try to get into the cabin.

George, I think you'll find any number of posts on this thread's subject by doing a search on this topic on this site.....I think you'll also find that MMC comes by once a year or so and stirs up the locals with his "research" ad nauseam.....I, too, have also noticed the large numbers of eco-tourists in recent years......how many have been killed by bears????? Not very many if any....most people leave Alaska, after their week or two "in the bush," and are disappointed because they haven't even seen a bear. IF, and that's a big IF, there is an increase in bear "attacks" it's almost certainly due to more folks going into bear country than ever before and they fail to use their head and common sense, turning encounters into problems.

George, I'd also like to point out that there are a hell of a lot of us here that live here year 'round and your reference to those that leave after, as you say, "the sunlit day period", just shows your knowledge of Alaska. George, the winter solstice was just the other day but I had bright sunshine here all day...folks are winter king fishing here....you've been to Alaska before but must not have been paying attention.....Saeed graciously has these forums for all to participate in and you don't have to be an Alaskan to call us IMFs......but, trust me when I say it's obvious who is and who isn't.....after all, we live in Alaska, you live in Delaware and tell us how to live...... Those dangerous, Delaware blue hens aren't too bad to eat, especially if you don't have Dall sheep, moose, or caribou eh? Hell, can you still buy muskrat meat in roadside markets on 13 in delmarva country? Still lots of golf course geese?

Joe

P.S. Your book got good reviews......but they didn't mention an Alaska section......

Hear hear, Ovis. But have you ever tasted those damned chickens? Geez man, you HAVE been in Alaska too long.

Actually, I agree with everything you said except the eco-tourist being eaten. The last two (man and wife) who were killed by the griz in the general vicinity you and I spoke of were doing that. Then it tried to eat 2 more before they escaped down the river if I recall correctly.

And I know that a helluva lot of you DO live there year round, but I was speaking in population numbers. I know you guys must be glad to see that last damned Winnebago with Florida plates headed for the AlCan at Toc and the last bus load of Japanese sport fishermen headed for the airport. The air taxi service we use is Brooks Range Air and I know they "winter" in Arizona and the sheep guide I had moves from Copper River into Anchorage after the first snows. Can't blame any of them, just giving an accessment of what I've seen.

And I would never want you to think my comments were intended to be condescending or gratuitous. You guys are some very hardly stock and I have the utmost respect for you and how you tolerate the yearly invasion of all the IMFs from down this way.

"Cathead Biscuits and Squirrel Stew" does include the sheep hunt and the bear with its nose in the canvas. The guy writing the ad probably figured the "Rockies" was more than most could handle anyway. There's a segment on the Kootenays as well, but that too was missed.

George

George,

Actually, I was on the east coast this past summer(passed throught Delaware driving back)and it was a hell of a reminder why I live in Alaska.

Those two folks killed by the bear were hardly tourists.....they were experienced Alaskans and were armed...they were on a float trip...lots of wilderness experience....stuff happens....nothing goes exactly to plan up here; "hardly ever" is the best you can expect.

Anyhow, I'll order your book and add some $$$ to the Roof Alaskan slush fund......Happy New Year.

Joe

It always amazes me how its never the guys who live in the bush who have "hypothetical bear defense scenerios" in other words its peoples imaginations that get the best of em, not the bear.

With that said i would use whatever i was carrying at the time. To carry a specialized weapon for one in a million "attack" would seem pretty paranoid. If i spent a lot of time in the bush my BLR in .358 would get the nod, light, fast and a 250gr boolit wouldnt be nothing to sneeze at.

quote:

Originally posted by fgulla:
It always amazes me how its never the guys who live in the bush who have "hypothetical bear defense scenerios" in other words its peoples imaginations that get the best of em, not the bear.

With that said i would use whatever i was carrying at the time. To carry a specialized weapon for one in a million "attack" would seem pretty paranoid. If i spent a lot of time in the bush my BLR in .358 would get the nod, light, fast and a 250gr boolit wouldnt be nothing to sneeze at.

fgulla, in 2005 George Roof and myself did a self guided Caribou hunt into the Arctic circle of the brooks range. The second day of awaking we had a large Grizzle bear working the hill side about 2 miles away. We watch the bear work the hill side for about an hour, at which time the bear must of saw our tents or smelled the left scraps from the previous SLOB hunters that used the camp before us (that is another story). The bear made a beeline to our camp. We back out of camp and got a high advantage point because the bear slipped down a river bottom and we did not know where he was going to pop out at.
Well he came straight to our camp,the only reason I think he left was, I was taking pictures and my flash went to auto and went off, the bear stood up on his hind legs and look our direction and them retreated back to the hill side and then out of sight.

Do you think we slept without the thought if he would return?

I brought my Super Redhawk with a 2.5 inch barrel in 454 Casull as my tent gun. We did not think it was a good idea to use a rifle in a tent, kind of hard to maneuver if needed.

We also work up to 4 inch's of snow and 5 sets of Wolf track right up to out tents.

I agree with a lot of people here, the best defense would be a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. But if nothing else a good handgun in the tent make me sleep a little easier. I did get a 4 inch 500 Mag as my next tent gun for when George and I return back to Alaska.

So fgulla, my scenario is not imagined it is real, been there done that. Have you ever been to Alaska or are you just and online specialist?

Anyone who makes or stays in a "dirty" camp up here is crazy. Bears are mainly interested in food. If you smell like food they will come to you, thats a given. That is why you should have a cook/eat camp a 1/4 or half mile from your sleeping tent and keep all food smells off your tent and gear there. AFter feild dressing a moose I will leave my clothes that I was wearing at the cook/eat camp and only have clean gear at my sleeping tent, even where you go to the bath room is important. Never stay in a dirty camp site, I wouldn't be surprised if that bear had already come in to get those scraps the other hunters had left. The number one way to keep from getting eaten is to not smell like food.

Always remember the 6 Ps....

Prior planning prevents piss poor performance!

It sounds like your camera flash was a pretty decent bear defense weapon in this case!

I have a buddy who had a sow pop out the passenger side window of his brand new ford pickup to get at a crumpled up mcdonalds wrapper that was on the floor. His window had been down 1-2" and she happened by and smelled the greasy double chesseburger wrappers. Thier sence of smell is amazing.

What TheBear_78 says about a clean camp is spot on but that doesn't guarantee you will be safe. The couple from Anchorage that got killed by the grizz in the Brooks did everything right. Had bear proof containers with their food in it and kept is cached away from camp. They also had a pistol just in case but they never got a shot off. This thread was started to get info on how to stop a charging bear, not about hunting them. For stopping bears at close range, 30 feet or closer, I will carry a shotgun fully loaded with the Brennekke's. If the bear can get through that kind of punishment then he can and probably will kill my ass, but at least i gave myself a fighting chance. Why get so worked up because someone would rather use a shotgun over a 45/70?? Either will do the job, it's all just a matter of personal prefernece.

Thebear_78 , We had no choice. We were dropped off 150 miles from the nearest town. The guys that were there before us left 9 Caribou carcasses as far as 1 1/2 miles from camp, to right out side of camp. We did not see all the shit that was left until after the plane took off and we started looking at the hunting and camp area.

It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but we could not just make another camp sight. The area is as open as a desert and not a tree or hill in sight except the big hill surrounding the valley we were in. We landed on a lake the had a south facing over hand where we put or tents. You don't want to be exposed to the north winds coming off the Arctic ice packs.

As we walked the area to spot game we saw eggs left in the tundra, scraps of meat in our water scorce. We would of had to have the plane come back in and relocate us to a new area and that might of taken them a few days to get back to use anyway's. Also there were forest fires all over Bettles AK where the float plains took off from, so flight plans we not as gareeted thing.

The area we went to had no other lakes big enough to land a plane on within 20 miles. But that would of taken us out of our desired hunting area.

As far as maintaining a clean camp, we did our part, also just for the record, we did report the incident to the Air service, and they confirmed that they thought that group had run a dirty camp.

But you not being there and seeing our situation and location by no means gives you the insight on our area to make a comment they we should of just moved our camp.

Luckly the bear never did come back.

BS, its not that hard to pick up a tent camp and take it 1/2 mile in any direction to get away from the meat scraps, before you even made camp that stuff should have been checked out, if there was no other available place there you should have moved before the float plane even left.

I would have gladly hiked my stuff a mile or so away to avoid an area like that. YOu should have been able to smell 9 carabou carcasses or even one if it was right outside of camp. YOu should have been really pissed at your air service provider if they dropped you in what they considered to be a dirty camp. It was abad situation to be in and I am sorry you were put in that position but still picking a proper camp site is part of the planning, no excuses.

I hadn't made the connection with you as George's hunting partner.....you guys are poster children for making a guide requirement for all non-resident hunting of big game in Alaska......

George, I'm not buying your book after all.

I might add, that for MMC's bear "research," there was a study released by three well known bear experts in conjunction with biologists that show in the last 100 years in Alaska(through 2005), that there were 56 human deaths caused by bears and 216 injuries attributed to bears(all three flavors brown/grizzly, black, and polar). There you go......

Happy New Year to all.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
I hadn't made the connection with you as George's hunting partner.....you guys are poster children for making a guide requirement for all non-resident hunting of big game in Alaska......

George, I'm not buying your book after all.

I might add, that for MMC's bear "research," there was a study released by three well known bear experts in conjunction with biologists that show in the last 100 years in Alaska(through 2005), that there were 56 human deaths caused by bears and 216 injuries attributed to bears(all three flavors brown/grizzly, black, and polar). There you go......

Happy New Year to all.

Joe

And your point is??

*** REPLY TO OVIS ***

-- Ovis , -- you can't be all bad .

Your scathing , vicious , derrogatory , scurrilous attack , is second only to that of the Grizz.

-- I.E. -- " ..... you'll also find that MMC comes by once a year or so and stirrs up the locals with his " research " , -- ad nauseam " .

Firstly , -- I think that you're insulting the intelligence of you own ,
-- " Locals " , -- as if they could be stirred up , by my humble repartee .

I sprinkle all of my posts on Bear-attacks with " IMHO's , JMHO's ; -- geez , -- I do my very best . --- I even admit , from time to time , that my experience with Brownies , is mostly arm-chair .

My only endeavor is to get information . -- and If I think I got some that's good , to impart it .

I even admit to being a wee bit obsessive about Bear-Attacks , ( NOT Bearanoid , mind you , but , " Obsessive / Compulssive " !

That's almost surely , because I was attacked by a Blackie , when a young man , -- and it plumb burned a hole in my Bear-Consciouness . -- I'm also worried a mite , about my Boy working for AK Fish and Feathers .

But here's the long and short of it ; -- there's a lot of pure-Bull circulating in AK , and everywhere else , about Bruins being teddybears that don't hardly ever harm anybody . -- That's dangerous B.S.

Some living in heavy Bear Country , -- use the situation to Poo-Poo the tourists , out of state hunters , and campers ; -- by saying , -- " ...... look here , -- I'm a big local Bear-Expert , myself , and I live here , ( an elite status ) ; -- and I can tell you I ain't afraid of no Bears ; -- and all of your " Bearanoia " is just greenhorn's scarry stuff ! --- Why , hell , Bears almost never harm anybody , and even if they did , -- I wouldn't be affraid , -- 'cause I can handle it !
-- ( I'm just one step away from being Paul Bunyon ) " .

That's B.S. too .

Advising novices to ignore the possibility of bear attack , or to go into High-Population Bear-Range with , " not enough gun " , -- is , in my opinion , almost criminal doins' .

Otherwise , -- I'm just interested in knowing about the very best Pure-Bear- Defense weapon available . ---- That's my hobby of late .
And that's what this Thread asked for .

And it ain't just Alaska , -- there's a few bears in The Rockies , back-East , and a few more in Canada . -- And if you read much about Bear Attacks , -- for every human death , there's a whole lot more , close calls , injuries and , Dead Bears , ( that are never reported ) .

Black Bears do more Predatory Attacks , -- and they ain't to be dismissed either .

--- It ain't hard to understand that Man , being in possession of advanced firearms , doesn't get killed much by Bears . -- But that ain't to say that Bruins arn't top-predators , -- and that Griz. ain't verry truculent and irrascible ; -- and reasonably to be feared by those sleeping and stomping about outdoors . That ain't to say that the jeopardy ain't out there .

Anyway , I throw out what I know , -- I learn more from controversy , than from agreement ; -- and I thank all for that , ( even Ovis ) .

If my opinions are wrong , or partly wrong , by all means , let me know . -- If I'm right-on , -- I appreciate knowing your agreement . --- That's all .

If I've tread on some .45-70 lovers toes , -- .30-06 lovers ? -- etc. etc. -- I'm sorry , but I just got a lot of respect for Ruark's , " Use Enough Gun " principle " " ; and I believe that the military-fire-power concepts , have been overlooked by most looking for the best Bear-Defense firearm .


------------- Nose To The Trail , --- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
BS, its not that hard to pick up a tent camp and take it 1/2 mile in any direction to get away from the meat scraps, before you even made camp that stuff should have been checked out, if there was no other available place there you should have moved before the float plane even left.

I would have gladly hiked my stuff a mile or so away to avoid an area like that. YOu should have been able to smell 9 carabou carcasses or even one if it was right outside of camp. YOu should have been really pissed at your air service provider if they dropped you in what they considered to be a dirty camp. It was abad situation to be in and I am sorry you were put in that position but still picking a proper camp site is part of the planning, no excuses.

Like I said you weren't there and from the sounds of it, you don't know what it is like to move 10 days of supplies a mile in the tundra. Have you ever been to Alaska???

M70NUT,

No point.....just more info for MMC's bear "research.".....I'm waiting for the book.

Certainly wasn't directed at you and if you thought it was, I apologize.......

Joe

Simply put the VERY BEST bear defense is knowing your surroundings and practice a little bit of common sense......

Rule #1- don't surprise a bear, make plenty of noise when traveling thru heavy brush in bear travel routes, river banks, or bear trails.

Rule #2- Stay away from thier food cache, if you find a partialy covered dead animal, be VERY aware and back out of the area, gun ready

Rule #3- If you don't want to be eaten, don't smell like food. Don't ever let food in your sleeping tents, don't cook near them either. Keep all food smells away from your sleeping gear and tent. Position a toilet area a good ways away from your sleeping tent. If you don't smell like a free meal, a bear won't mess with you.

Rule #4- Respect a bears personal space! If one comes down to your hole on a river, back away. Don't try to pet a cub, ever! If he tries to take your fish, walk away.

Rule #5- Don't make eye contact, or any other threatening or challenging body language behavior. If you act like an insolent punk, they might try to teach you a lesson.

Rule #6- Keep your dog on a tight leash, are at least controlled enough to keep him from agitating a bear. A dog being a dog is naturally attracted to things like dead animals partially hidding in brush and dirt, and piles of dead fish. Dog goes to sniff them, bear decides to protect his dinner, dog runs to you for protection, bear follows.

Rule #7- Trust your gut. You know sometimes when you just get a gut feeling that something watching you or something is just not right. Pay attention becuase you might have picked up on something subconscously.

If you follow these sets of runs religiously they will do more for you than any amount of firepower.

On that very odd chance that you are a victim of a predatory attack you really won't have much a chance reguardless of what your carrying. I'm not saying roll over and die, but know that in the end this is his playground, and you only tread there by the bears tolerance.

Redhawk-

I actually live here, and know exactly what its like to move 10 days of suppliest in the tundra, and when compared to staying in a dirty camp I'd take the day and move my stuff or at least my sleep camp away from the dirty camp. Tent camps by thier very nature are portable, thats why your not staying in a cabin, so you can be mobile to stay on the herd or move to areas with better hunting. You should have been able to take all your stuff in two loads a piece, unless you packed very heavy.

While not fun its better than inviting trouble with bears or other predators. Don't blame me because you were to lazy to do what was the safest thing in that situation. That is why I have become well aquainted with my pack frame. I regularly hike with my pack in the summer, fall, and winter with 35lbs of 3yr old and 10lbs of blanket and cloths stuffed around him to keep him warm in the winter. Add a few rabbits or grouse and you have a downright heavy pack. A couple miles a day 3-4 days a week and it makes those 50-70lb packs of meat a little easier to carry when you have to.

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
I hadn't made the connection with you as George's hunting partner.....you guys are poster children for making a guide requirement for all non-resident hunting of big game in Alaska......

George, I'm not buying your book after all.

I might add, that for MMC's bear "research," there was a study released by three well known bear experts in conjunction with biologists that show in the last 100 years in Alaska(through 2005), that there were 56 human deaths caused by bears and 216 injuries attributed to bears(all three flavors brown/grizzly, black, and polar). There you go......

Happy New Year to all.

Joe

We had another guy with us that has hunted this area 15 times in the past. He is not a guide but knows the area well.

But thanks for the vote of confidence, funny how we did just fine getting out animals and out of the wilds of Alaska without any problem's other than the mess a Alaskan guide left for us.

Yes, you read that right, it was an Alaskan guide that had 3 clients that left the area like that. So how about that Alaskan guide you think we need as non-resident hunters. I am sure there are more good guides than the one we unfortunately had the pleasure of following up on.

Ovis, no need for an apology, i was just curious as to what the post in bold was trying to say as concerning this post.

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
Redhawk-

I actually live here, and know exactly what its like to move 10 days of suppliest in the tundra, I also know what its like to move 10 days worth of stuff and when compared to staying in a dirty camp I'd take the day and move my stuff or at least my sleep camp away from the dirty camp. Don't blame me because you were to lazy to do what was the safest thing in that situation.

I would not call it lazy, It is hard to explain the area we were in. We were in a funnel between two mountain's. There was a large lake that we landed on and a river about 1/2 mile from camp. The guide and hunters that were there before us killed Caribou all over the place. There was no place other than move 2 miles out of camp to get away from the carcasses. We gathered up the scraps of meat and took them out of camp and clean up the area. So we did clean it up.

It would be a lot easier to have a conversation with you in person, that type a novel to explain it all in detail here. I just know it was not as easy as you may think it would of been.

I love Alaska and I can't wait to go back. I am sure after the phone calls George and I made, that Guide should of been under some kind of surveillance or at least lost his license. The amount of meat left behind was incredible. We found front quarter's of Caribou.

When we arrived in camp, the pilot told us he need to load up there supplies that they had left because they could not get it all on the load out. They had Caribou meat in bags and camp supplies under tarps. I was under the understanding the meat had to be removed before the Antlers were removed. They did it the other way, took the Antlers and left all the meat for the next plane to pick up last.

Like I said there is more to the story than I would write here. So there is more to it than we were to lazy.

Sorry I did not notice you were from Alaska, but now I see it in your location. You are indeed a lucky man. My wife would not even consider Alaska, but I would.

Considering it was 0 degrees this morning I can see where your wife was coming from. She is probably thinking, cold and dark most of the year.....we can visit from time to time.

Have any of you Alaska guys, or any of the rest of you for that matter, ever actually defended yourself from a full fledged brown/grizzly attack? If so what weapon did you use??

I might be mistaken, but I believe the thread started with a hypothetical situation, and a request for everyone to decide between three firearms and give a reason why. Certainly nothing to get everyone's panties in a bunch.

If you feel like your choice is a shotgun, by all means use a shotgun. Is your choice the .30-06, OK. .45-70? Even better.

I will stick with what has worked for me, Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. I have a scout scope setup with QD rings, and ghost ring sights as backup, for those really, really bad days. The rifle is light, short, easy to handle in most types of terrain, and puts em down with authority. In most cases, a second shot is not necessary.

No matter what else i carry, I always carry a backup, Raging Bull in .480 Ruger.

*** BLACK OPS ***

There are also some ancillary applications of , -- the Combat Shotgun .

These are so frowned-upon by Tree and Bunny huggers , and indeed most of the lay community , ( that's animal-sympathetic ) ; -- that the mere mention of this stuff is anethema . --

One was mentioned either above , (?) , or on another Thread , and/or Forum , recently , -- ( can't remember ) .

They constitute the , " Black Ops. of Bear Attack survival " .

One is to shoot one of a two cub ( of the year ) pair , if the Mom looks like she's about to charge . -- Then according to the information , the Mom/Sow , will save the remaining cub , and retreat , -- instead of charging . --- Lot of judgement calls here .

Another is to have a heavier bird-shot cartridge , ( Maybe No. 2 birdshot , or BB ) in the pipe while traversing heavily used , low visibility Bear environs . At intermediate ranges , -- maybe 15 to 25 Yds.

The tactic is that the pattern is so large , and dense from a 3" , 12 Ga. shell , that you have an excellent chance of hitting a large Bruin's head at these ranges . -- A frontal charging Bear with a face full of bb's is a blind bear . --- When bears are charging they are using their eyes to home in , ( not their noses ) .

An animal , even on high-adrenaline , when loosing vision and having extreme pain in it's eyes , will usually pull up short and paw their eyes .

If successful , this will buy time for follow-up shots , -- maybe better than breaking the bear down with shoulder shots , etc .

With the Semi-auto Shotgun , -- 3" Brennekes @ 660 Gr.'s will be close behind to the tune of very rapid fire .

Not far-out , at all , when the game is you and maybe your family , and/or favorite dog , -- staying alive .

-------------------- MMCOUGAR .

and mmconcolor slips further and further into a bearaphobic frenzy.......sad really.

lets take a look.....
birdshot at 25 yards out of a open choke is fairly open pattern, might or might not blind the bear, but will definately piss it off. Not only that but at this time the bear already has you locked into its sights and is probably close enough to finish the charge. Secondly shooting a bears cub will surely illicit a protective responce from said sow..and she will be royally pissed off.

better yet why don't you kidnap one of the cubs and then when she looks like she might charge, hold up the picture of her tied up cub...and assure her that she will never see said cub again if she attacks you.

*** --- Maybe so , -- Maybe so , -- ??

just floating the concept for opinion more experienced than my own .

----------- MMCOUGAR .

I can honestly say that shooting a cub because a sow looks like she may charge is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. If you attack a sow's cub you will be charged, and probably killed.

As to bird shot blinding the bear, maybe, but I'm going to put my chips on a good solid chuck of lead punching a nice deep hole.

The 3rd page ,,, this is amazeing.....Typeing is way to hard work for me to bang out half of what some of you do.....There is nothing of value I can add here .... Execpt mayby a caution to torching a 500 S&W off in a mountain tent occupied by someone else ...Ide stick with a 2 1/2 " Ruger .,, 480 or Proven 454 loads.......You don,t want to knock your self out....Gumboot out.........

OK, now that the character assassinations are complete, let me fill in the spots that Redhawk missed. ONE: We hunted the south slope of the Brook in the Nigu River Basin. We had the misfortune of selecting a week when the forest fires around Bettles were intense and ended up losing 3 days of hunting because plane operations were shut down because of smoke. This left ANOTHER HUNTING PARTY on our selected site. This part was GUIDED BY A LICENSED ALASKAN GUIDE. TWO: When air operations were opened, it was because of a stong north wind (right off the ice pack right down the Nigu River Basin) When we arrived, it was all we could do to keep the plane from capsizing in the waves of the small lake we had to land on. The other party was almost in a panic to get out of there, so they loaded themselves on the plane and left all their gear to be picked up the next day. THREE: After having pitched tents in a maelstrom and weathering the night, the plane came for the rest of the supplies. When we uncovered the tarp to load them, we found dirty utensils, dirty clothes, blooded meat in muslin bags, and trash. We were pissed that we had to load such crap, but we played nice for the ALASKAN LICENSED GUIDE. The plane left. FOUR: As you natives know, the weather changed in a heartbeat. From the howling winds, calm set in and before we knew it, there was 6 inches of snow all over. Now remember, we have NOT scouted anyplace other than our tent floors. FIVE: At 3 pm, it cleared and we came out to survey the tundra. Caribou were everywhere. Redhawk dropped one and it took us 4 hours to get across a raging stream, butcher and cape the animal and get it back to the lake since FOLLOWING ALASKAN LAW, we couldn't move the antlers until the meat had been taken care of. SIX: As fate would have it, we had just made it back to camp when a herd containing a good bull walked up to the lake at 200+ yards and I dusted it. I could only muster strength to field dress the animal and I covered it with my poncho to try and keep the wolves away that had visited us the night before. SEVEN: By now we're on day 3 of tent living and the snow has melted. It was THEN and only THEN that we found that an ALASKAN LISCENSED GUIDE had despoiled the campsite and the entire area around the lake. The lake was surrounded by tundra for a good 3 miles in every way. There was no place to go and since we were close to tagging out, any blame you want to cast on US for choosing this site is assinine. That afternoon, I made the irridium phone call to BRA and they sent a plane that landed at 7 am the next morning. When I got back, I went to the BRA operations shack and filed a formal complaint about this ALASKAN LICENSED GUIDE. Now anything else smartassed said on this situation is Monday morning quarterbacking. You can talk all the smack you want but that's under IDEAL situations. We didn't have them there and we reacted in the only way that responsibly could have been.

George thanks for posting more details, I know I left out a lot. But like I said, if I were having a face to face conversation with someone the information is a lot more easily explained. It is a pain having to type it all and think at the same time.

Someone wanted to know if anyone on this thread had been in a bear defense situation. Here's a short version of my story:

In the early spring of 1993 a good friend of mine invited me to hunt sheep with him and his wife in his "honey" hole in the Brooks Range. The plan was to drive to Galbreath Lake and meet our pilot who would fly us into Lake 1. We arrived in early August as scheduled but the weather was dreadful, low ceiling, rain and fog would delay our trip out. So we decided to kill some time by driving the Haul road and see what we could see. This was my first trip up that way and I was amazed by the sheer numbers of caibou we were seeing. We also saw several grizzlies and some musk ox.

The next day was clear and our pilot was able to land at the lake and fly us to our destinantion. After getting dropped off we set up base camp and did some glassing, within minutes my friends wife, Dee spotted what she thought were3 huge caribou bulls. I peered through my spotter to see that they were not caribou but 3 very large bull moose that had comeout of a riverbed choked with willows. What a sight!! Well the next morning was once again clear and cool and we set out for our sheep hunting area which was a 5 hour hike from base camp. After reaching our hunting spot we set up camp and got things situated, cleaned our rifles, had some dinner then off to bed.

We hunted hard for 2 days and didn't see much in the way of legal sheep but on the 3rd day my friend Jeff connected on a nice full curl ram with a split right horn. He packed the ram back to camp in his backpack and after unloading it, he washed it in the creek behind our camp. We set up a meat cache 200 yards upwind from camp and went about our business.

The following day we split up once again to try and find 2 more legal rams but the weather started to turn on me so I decided to go back to camp. When I arrived I could see that Jeff and Dee were already there and had a nice fire going so we wiped our guns down and put them in the tent, a mistake that I will never make again. We were standing around the fire talking about NASCAR and Dee was cooking a Mtn House lasagna dinner when I heard what I thought was a low flying raven. I was looking up at the sky when Dee screamed "bear"!! I turned around to see where it was and saw the sow with cubs in tow, only 30 yards away and coming fast. I had no weapon and no chance to get my rifle. The sow stopped behind my tent which was less than 10 feet from me and she stuck her head in Jeff's pack, trying to find the sheep that she thought was in the pack. Dee started to turn and run and I yelled to her "Dee! don't run.....stop" and she stopped immediately but in doing so we got the sow's full attention.

The sow, which was on her hind legs, got down on all 4's and came at us slowly as her cubs searched around our camp. This was the closest I have ever been to any animal in the wild, I could have reached out and touched her nose she was that close. We managed to get into the nearby dry riverbed and the sow broke off her slow charge and went back into our camp. As soon as she turned her back Dee ran like hell to go and find help, there was a spike camp about a 1/2 mile away but Dee would find out later that they had already left the area. Jeff and I stayed behind to see what the bear was going to do to our camp. They milled about camp until they found our meat cache and proceeded to eat the entire sheep in less than 2 minutes, leaving nothing but a scapula and half a game bag.

We watched intently as they continued to look for food but could not find any. We were pretty worried that they were going to destroy our camp and thats why we stayed so close. Well eventually the cubs must have winded us and didn't like what they were smelling so they took off out of sight while the sow continued to search for something to eat. After a few minutes she noticed that the cubs had run off so she took off after them, once she was out of sight we ran back into camp and retrieved our rifles. We drew a line in the sand, so to speak, and that was the line we would defend if we had too. It wasn't 5 minutes and here they come running back at us but this time I was ready, with a fully loaded rifle and another 20 rounds in my pocket, I blasted a rock in front of the sows nose. This had no affect on her so I did it again, still no affect........8 more times I shot at her and she never even flinched.

I guess she must have had enough as she woofed at her cubs and off they went, out of sight in a drainage up the river bed. I could not believe she would not leave and had a bad feeling that this was going to end on a very sad note for either her or us. We were watching the bear when Jeff says to me "if she takes one step towards us, let her have it", I didn't want to shoot her but if she attacked we would have no choice. Well, the worse thing that could happen, did........she stood up growling and as soon as she took her first step, Jeff gave her a 180 grain Nosler in the chest from Big Nan, his favorite 30-06. After the first shot she started growling even worse and clawing at her chest so I gave her one in the neck, another through the nose and one in the mouth. We shot a total of 9 rounds and hit her with 7, from first shot to the last it was no more than 10 seconds and she was dead. I couldn't belive this happened to me.

Needless to say I could not sleep at all that night and as I laid in my sleeping bag I could hear something outside my tent. I yelled to Jeff and I grabbed my gun thinking, not again. I jumped out of the tent to see Jeff chasing an injured wolf up and down the riverbed in his underwear. He didn't get the wolf and I didn't get my ram but I came home alive and in the grand scheme of things, thats all that really mattered. As an aside, When we took the sheep horns and cape into the taxidermist, we aksed him if we did a good job on the cape, he started laughing and said "you guys did a great job, to bad he doesn't have a nose". I couldn't believe it, the sow managed to eat the nose off the cape without us seeing it and even after fleshing and salting it down he still didn't see it. A funny ending to a trip that could have ended a lot worse!

Helluva story M70. Thanks for sharing.

Hint of wisdom, when your being charged dont have your scope set on 9x. Also if a brown bear decides to sleep on 1 corner of your tent, and your wife tries to wake you up. wake up. Sometimes I wonder how I never got mauled.

*** STRATEGIES DEFINE THE WEAPON ***

Back to HarryC's orig. Post :

Seems what we've done here , is to show that your approach to the Bear-Charge ,
( hypothetical ) problem , -- decides what Weapon would suit your needs best .

One common denominator to all , though , is that , first and foremost ; -- the Bruin doesn't get to play hopscotch on your body .

Many take the strategy that they're going to carry a certain weapon for whatever purpose , -- and if the Bear-Charge number comes up , --
they'll do the best they can , -- with what they've got . --- But that's not What H.C. asked .

You may first spy the Bear , ( that's going to charg ) , at various ranges . -- When does your strategy say it's justifiable to start shooting ?? ( I.E. , at what range and in consideration of what Bear-Behavior - ?? ) .

When is it best , in terms of survival to start shooting ??

Will your first shot just piss the Bear off and seal your fate -- ?? If you shoot early , -- will you loose , forever , the advantage that it may turn out to be a Bluff Charge -- ??

Maybe the .30-06 is an ideal choice , -- if you like to catch 20 Lb. fish on 6 Lb. line ; -- and you've got TWO experienced Back-Up shooters ??

Maybe the .45-70 , is ideal if you want to be able to hunt big-game out to say 170 Yds. , -- and still want some clout , in-close in the Alder Tunnels ??

Maybe a .470 N.E Double is a good choice , if you want to STOP a Thousand Pounder , up close , -- with a center-of-mass hit ??

And maybe my choice of an Auto Gas-Gun is good if you want to stop one with a constant tatoo of continuous fire ; -- but you still want double ought in the chamber to pick up a facer , or Blinding-shot on the first punch .

Dr. Herrero , in his Bear-Attack bible ; -- says something like 95% of Attacks , ( where contact is made ) , -- take place within 50 Yds . -- With a large percentage of those inside of 30 Yds .

Maybe the range , ( at first sighting ) , varies a lot with the specific country you're in ; -- and even with the particular variety of Bruin you encounter . --- Surely , with the circumstances that initially piss our hypothetical Bear off !

Seems to me it's wiser to choose a Pure Bear-Attack Weapon for the in-close encounter , -- the worst scenario .

But a lot of the answer is in your philosophy about what's Sporting ?? --- Bullshit .

In the last few years , since studying it , -- I've pretty much lost all sympathy for our hypothetical Bear . -- And the only thing that remains , is like in the pre- 1900's , when any agressive Bear , ( or livestock cruiser ) , was shot .

I'm sorry , -- but this nonsense about putting a predator's interests ahead of Fisherman's , Hunter's , and other recreational outdoorsmen ; ( not to mention Ranchers trying to make a living ) . -- is the ultimate ECO-hypocracy .

--------------------- MMCOUGAR .

m70,s experience is why I wear a 480 , even when useing a Red Mister... Ever tried to run off an agressive sow with 2 small cubs ,,with an out of gas chain saw..And haveing a dog with us,, loose has saved me from at least a dozen way too close situations , most of which were the bear hunting , chaseing or trailing me...And my wife once that would have been real bad.. The dog that is sleeping on my couch has paid his bill for life!!!!!!!!!3 times all by himself..... I would rather have my dog and a 30/06 than no dog and a best grade 500 Nitro double with a tacticle light hooked to it.. But ,,,, My dog and a 500, w/tac. lite...and a 480 !!!!! Were LOGGIN NOW.!!!Anything an enviro,,mental, ist doesn,t like Is probably something that is good and worth while.... Most E wackos HATE dogs ...,, They should be run out of the woods by a pack of rodesien ridge back/ Alaska Husky cross dogs...................