quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
Not every action in life is a political statement. Use of bear spray or recommending bear spray is not a denial of the appropriate use of a gun.

P-dog, the more you bluster, the less credence I put in your stated life experience. Most LEOs, SpecOps, SEALs, and military operators I know are a lot more respectful of other's experience and opinion (and personally humble about their accomplishments).

I would suggest that if you think non-lethal force has no place in the wild or in police-civilian encounters, that is a problem. While some people and animals "just done need killin'", too many assholes spaz at the sight of a bear and hose off shots for no good reason other than that they panicked.

If you're going to trust anyone's opinion on "use of force" against a bear, I'd put my money with Messrs Phil and Jake. Everyone has an opinion, but some are worth more than others.

+1 Amen.

+2

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...321097271#3321097271

http://forums.accuratereloadin...821009571#9821009571

I well say it again good shooting Phil. I glad you defended your clients successfully.

Seems kind of ironic that some one who has pushed spray so hard used a handgun to defend his clients

One can read Phil's comments on spray in these two links a quick search revealed them.

For those who keep saying that I don't have what it takes to kill a pissed off bear. I have killed several wounded pissed off bears at muzzle touching distances with hand guns.

How many of you have done that? I would love to read your stories.

One was a 500 pound plus bear that was mauling a hound my 41 mag left powder burns on its head.

Personally I found going into the thick stuff after wounded bears to be a little less dangerous then searching buildings and woods for armed felons and murder suspects.

pdog, I suppose my having and using bear spray is like you having a pack of hounds between you and the bear. It is a good first line of defense but sometimes it needs to be backed up with a little more.
You can see from this photo that I have bear spray in my hand and my 44 in a holster. Of course it is a full flap holster and you probably assume one needs something you can draw quickly. But I have always been fast enough.


But there is no cause to get into a pissing contest about which is more dangerous between " searching building for armed felons" and very real bear attacks.

I served a year in combat in the triple canopy jungle of the central highlands of Vietnam, did my share of killing, and can assure you that dealing with a 1200 pound bear intent on killing you is every bit as fascinating.

Some seriously tough folk in Alaska. What with claws and teeth those bears gotta be more dangerous than Buffalo.

They are interesting and intelligent animals. They can run for miles and quickly can reach speeds over 40 mph. Although they may not be as blazingly quick as lion or leopard, the largest closely approach your buffalo in size.

Phil
if it was not you... I would say you were looking to become famous !!!!

you could at least use a 10mm auto next time !

Theirry, I am not sure how an additional 1 mm would have made any difference in the outcome.

You plan on hitting either or the gun shows this weekend ? I hope to make it but have three moose thawing and need to butcher this weekend.

We all wish we could have your problem Phil

Jim, How handy are you with a knife ?

Phil.

it is not just an additional 1mm...

I love my 9mm but the 10mm Auto with full charge is way more powerful than a 9mm.

If I remember well I told you about my "ballistic" experimentation...

As you tell, if you miss the spine or the brain it doesn't matter if it is a 9mm a 10 or a 454...

my point you get with the 10mm Auto the extra power to go through all skin, fat, meat and crush the spine with more leeway than with a 9mm.

Theirry, I am finishing up butchering today and have a meeting later today with USFWS but later this week would love to sit down over coffee and talk guns with you. But here is a photo of the bear with one of the hits and penetration from the BB 9mm ammo easily visible.
It was obviously enough and in this situation anything more would have put my clients, who were behind the bear. at risk.


Don't worry, when I am guiding and dealing with large wounded bears I will take your advice and am not switching my 458 for anything smaller. You should consider getting one.

That is some mighty impressive performance from a 9MM. Tim at Buffalo Bore makes a good product.

Pucker factor of 10!

Surestrike, yes Tim makes some great ammo but even HE does NOT recommend this particular ammo for large brown bears...he designed this for that person who only owns a 9mm and is giving that person the best chance possible with that 9mm against a Black bear or Grizzly bear and only recommends it for brain shots....if you have to take body shots he feels you would be undergunned and you should probably choose a more powerful cartridge in that predicament. He has a fantastic article on his website about protection against bears. Again, he does make some great ammo especially for those that choose to not load their own.

Phil is a one in a million person who did well with the 9mm and this ammo in this situation...the majority of people would be seriously mistaken if they think it would be in their best interest to try and do the same....it could be life ending. I truly am saddened to some extent that both BB and others are hawking the 9mm and this ammo as SOLID large bear protection when realistically speaking it is not. You will likely not hear about the ones that get mauled and/or killed when this combo don't work. You never hear about the Inuit's that are killed by the Polar bear after being shot by the .222, only the successful ones.

THY,

Take your 10mm with you so Phil see's that it just ain't 1mm difference..it's a whole new level of performance. Heck, you can put the 9mm in the 10mm case and then seat the bullet. In addition, it is just as controllable as a 9mm in an autoloader.

Phil,

I have the deepest respect for you regardless of my posts....although you may not admit to it, you are not the average guide or hunter and someone very special with a skillset 99% will never know, especially when under pressure. I really do wish you well and hope you never have to repeat this life saving feat again.

Thanks Woodrow, nobody hopes I don't ever have to repeat that feat again more than I do ! And the fact that I was carrying a 9mm was an aberration as I still prefer my S&W 44 Mtn Gun.

But Tim Sundles claims that he is producing ammo for the smaller bore handguns simply for people who prefer a handgun over, on in conjunction with bear spray but don't want to buy a larger handgun but still want a good chance of surviving an encounter. I would say he has succeeded.

quote:

You will likely not hear about the ones that get mauled and/or killed when this combo don't work

Now days with every thing in the news right now why don't you think we would hear about it.

Here an excellent article from the buffalo boars web site

https://www.buffalobore.com/in...l=product_list&c=108

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
......But Tim Sundles claims that he is producing ammo for the smaller bore handguns simply for people who prefer a handgun over, on in conjunction with bear spray but don't want to buy a larger handgun but still want a good chance of surviving an encounter. I would say he has succeeded.

I sure wish I could find the hard cast BB in Anchorage. The BB offerings I find are almost all hollow point.

quote:

I sure wish I could find the hard cast BB in Anchorage. The BB offerings I find are almost all hollow point.

Might be time to take up reloading and casting I load BB like loads for pennies per round.

A set of lee dies and a lee mold for the price of two boxes of BB ammo your set to go.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
......But Tim Sundles claims that he is producing ammo for the smaller bore handguns simply for people who prefer a handgun over, on in conjunction with bear spray but don't want to buy a larger handgun but still want a good chance of surviving an encounter. I would say he has succeeded.

I sure wish I could find the hard cast BB in Anchorage. The BB offerings I find are almost all hollow point.

Dave,

We usually have friends that visit each year and I ship ammo to them to bring up in their luggage, especially if coming up on Alaska Air.

Cheers
Jim

I sure wish I could find the hard cast BB in Anchorage. The BB offerings I find are almost all hollow point.[/QUOTE]

Go to Alaska Ammo on Commercial Street in Anchorage they have BB Hard Cast pistol ammo.

Lee Stoner, in Wasilla, makes superb cast bullets and I have used them for well over a decade. It is no problem loading them to similar ballistics as the Buffalo bore ammo in 357, 44 and 45 calibers. they have been my go to loads for 15 years.