I picked up a magazine (On Target) in my local gun shop and found a two page ad from Renewable Resources Coalition against this mine. I searched this forum for "Pebble Mine" and I guess you guys think that these are just a bunch of liberal pinko commies? When is this due to start? Any effects on fishing or hunting yet? Why would the afore mentioned liberal commie pinkos take out an ad in a hunting/shooting magazine I wonder? I would have thought it would be money down the drain.
Peter.

The Renewable Resources Coalition is a coalition of sport fishing interests, anti development interests and native rights activists. Their intention is to preserve the current wilderness atmosphere prevalent thruout this region of Alaska. The add in a gun mag is right on for them. Most readers would not be anything more than tourists to this region and certainly wouldn't come here to see a copper mine!

Undoubtedly the proposed mine will be detremental to fish and wildlife in the area. There are several other developments around the state that have generally been ok environmentally speaking,( north slope oil field red dog mine,) but ok doesn't mean "good for,"

I have no use for the Renewable gang because their only interest is in wilderness preservation. Broke schools, pot holed roads, and 30 year old front line fire trucks don't bother them in the slightest. The Pebble Mine to me represents a degredation in my outdoor opportunities, and an improvement in my economic status.

Scott, thanks for a well reasoned response and the education.
Peter.

Count me as against the mine as there is just way too much environmental impact, and risk of destroying the richest fish breeding grounds in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Count me as against the mine as there is just way too much environmental impact, and risk of destroying the richest fish breeding grounds in the world.

I guess we should Shut in the Slope also then??
Count me as For the Pebble Mine!

I'm torn on this one. I try not to listen to the ads on TV, etc cuz each side is gonna make the other look bad (shocker), same point I also dont live near a mine, so I dont have a 1st hand knowledge on the reprocussions.

With todays EPA laws you would think a mine would be safe but on the other hand how many "accidents" have happened on the slope?

im sick of fishermen whinnin, bad season theyl be applying for work there. there is somebody breathin down mines neck for every little thing,
we need industry, and it wont ever hurt a fish

I say let them go thru the public permit process
before its blocked.

If it cant be done let the permit system stop it.

Would like to see some more job oportunity for my kids here in AK. We all can,t work for the
Park Circus!

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
im sick of fishermen whinnin, bad season theyl be applying for work there. there is somebody breathin down mines neck for every little thing,
we need industry, and it wont ever hurt a fish

Hard to argue with anything written above except for the hurt a fish part. It would be impossible to construct and operate an open pit mine at the headwaters of the Nushagak River without harming fish.

Its a complex issue. The single reason I moved to Dillingham better than ten years ago was for the pristine wilderness. I've had a wonderful time hunting moose, catching rainbow trout and resting on gravel bars along side rivers marveling at the solitude. Now, the above mentioned period of time later, I lust for the smooth asphalt, 21st century fire trucks and competent public education only a capitalist economy can provide. As a resident of Dillingham, as a contributing member of this community I am aware of the deficiencies my isolated fishing village bears and I am able to see the obvious financial incentives this kind of development offers.

Dillingham and the rest of Bristol Bay has subsisted and existed on salmon for just better than 100 years now. Subsisting and existing certainly doesn't translate to thriving. The question we're asking is after the mine plays out, and if the mine kills our fish, then what?

no mine is scenic, niether is a ford plant, or a pulp mill, but when there is no industry then loggers, millworkers become charter fisherman and fishing guides, and they start showing up in droves at your favorite spot anyway, google the history on gran duke, premier, kennikot see if they are near a river, what kind of regs did these places have 100 yrs ago, we need to quit printin money and start makin jobs

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Count me as against the mine as there is just way too much environmental impact, and risk of destroying the richest fish breeding grounds in the world.

I guess we should Shut in the Slope also then??
Count me as For the Pebble Mine!

I think there's a big difference between drilling oil in barren tundra and creating the worlds larges toxic lake held back by an earthen damn in a very syzmic area upstream from the world's largest salmon fisher. When the oil runs out we have a few holes it the ground. When the precious metals run out at Peble we get the world's LARGEST toxic lake FOREVER!!!!!!!! But that's just me.

Brett

I have a cousin in Anchorage who is a head biologist for AGFW and is studying the effects of what the Pebble mine COULD do. Along with the toxic harm to the region you also have the environmental harm of building roads and other infrastucture the mine of this size will need. This mine will be tied up in litigation for years before they are ever allowed to break ground.

I am opposed to the mine and would ask all the others who are to contact your elected officials and sign petitions against the mine.

Here are a couple to start:

http://takeaction.tu.org/c.ntJ...cacy/ActionItem.aspx

http://www.sportsmansalliance4ak.org/

Thanks

ddj

And theres a very important issue. All the way from the wilds of North West Iowa the State of Alaska get an opinion and a petition regarding the use of State of Alaska land.

Please don't be offended by my comment trouthunterdj. The residents of this state I hope you have found are generally welcoming and hospitable to visiting outdoorsmen. Were you to enquire with me about hunting or fishing here I'd happily help.

But, your opinion on this issue is somewhat irrelevant because you are not a stake holder in the region. You arrive on a morning flight, hunt or fish in our pristine wilderness for a week, and then return home on an evening flight to the concrete sidewalks, public libraries, and homeowners associations of your abode. Your opinion on the construction of Pebble is as relevant to a Dillingham'er as The California legislators on alaskan wolk control. Seriously, I'm not trying to be insulting, but imagine me seeing a photo of your house and then circulating a petition demanding you re paint it to a color more to my pleasure.

The argument that we shouldn't build Pebble because of what it COULD do is a little silly. Nuclear power plants COULD melt down. Hydro electric dams COULD break. New homes COULD catch fire. A new rifle COULD be in accurate. Yep, Pebble could poison. Could not.

Also, who or what is the AGFW? Did you mean the USFWS or ADFG?

No offense taken.

I would caution you to assume that because my posts say Northwest Iowa that I haven't been an Alaska resident.

And I did get crossed up in that he works for ADF&G but has also worked for USFW.

Every American has the right to voice their opinion. I lok at Alaska and especially its fishery as a national resource. A resource that deserves to be protected. Jobs and mines come and go but as we can see in Washington and Oregon, salmon do not. Once the resource has been damaged it cannot come back.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
Jobs and mines come and go but as we can see in Washington and Oregon, salmon do not. Once the resource has been damaged it cannot come back.

I think that about sums it up. That is unless you're decendants of commercial fisherman and then you have ther "right" to fish until the last salmon is caught. I know I'm sort of switching issues, but I've seen the same mentality back east and it's BS.

Brett

I'm no greenie, but even without a breach of the proposed toxic damn, the project will take a large area of game habitat and turn it into a large pit. Thus the habitat will be destroyed.

I've spent a fair bit of time on the slope, and the impact on game has been minimal. The tundra has not been removed wholesale thus destroying the habitat of the caribou and migratory bird species.

I just don't see the benefits of Pebble outweighing the impacts and potential impacts.

I'm on the side that says "build it". One of the reasons there was such a long fight for statehood was that the Fed. Gov't. was worried that Ak. would not be able to sustain itself - ie., there was no self sustaining economy and they would be continually putting out money. That barrier was overcome and we became a state. Now, We seem to have the exact same problem the Feds. were worried about but it's a situation in which the Feds. have created.
Every time we turn around, the Feds. or some PRESERVATIONIST group attempts to put the skids to the project. Basically, because of this attitude, we are still wards of the Feds.
I well remember pre pipeline days and was originally against it being built, believing it couldn't safely be done. BullXXXX!!! Overall, it hasn't turned into the projected fiasco the PRESERVATIONISTS predicted and for the most part, has served the state well.
I'm sick and tired of outsider PRESERVATIONISTS, trying to tell we Alaskans how to live our lives and run our econmy. They seem to think that tourism is the end all economic solution. B.S.!!! Tourism produces nothing. Take a look at the empty hotels all over the state. As far as I'm concerned, anyone wanting to bring their PRESERVATIONIST asses up here can stay on the left coast. We don't tell people in the Lower-48 how to run their lives so don't go telling us how to run ours. I could continue on but what's the point?
Build it, create some real jobs using people with real skills and hopefully build the local economy. Ok, rant off.
Bear in Fairbanks

I am afraid that Alaska is rapidly making the same mistakes as the lower 48 where the once large salmon runs and bear populations are now history. In addition, if we allow ourselves to be treated like colonies - with huge international corporations taking our resources and leaving our children the mess to clean up - we will have nothing and will have sold our future for one quick paycheck.
That is short sited and doesn't show any respect for Alaska or it's fish and game.

I've been bitting my tounge on this one for years and now it's time speak up.

For anyone who belives pebble won't cause a problem here's some news for ya. It already has.

I started my outfitting business after a few years as an assistant guide in my partners grandfathers guide area in 1983. We bought that area the next year and hunted it ever since.

That area wich I have come to love over the last 26 years included both the north and south fork of the Koktuli river and all of upper Talarik creek. Pebble mine hit me right in the center of all this.

I have wached mine activity grow over the course of the last couple decades and in the early years it was no problem at all. However for the past few years the helocopter traffic has become rediculas. At no time would there not be the droane of a helocopter somewhere in the distance. At no time could you stalk an animal and not worry that a chopper would fly overhead at the worst possible time and worst of all I have sat on a vantage point over looking a vally that I've hunted for a couple of decades and had a helocopter land in the middle of the vally and start doing what ever it is that they do. One time I had about 80 pounds of bear hide on my back when I nearly stepped into one of there holes they drill for core samples.

I'm not saying that the mine has at this point affected the game populations in the area. So far they have only impacted what should be a good wilderness expieriance for me and my clients and hampered our ability to take game.

Haveing said that this is what has happened during the exploration process. So far the roads, bulldozers, hudge power plant, new community's and mining camps, additional barge traffic up the Kvichak, etc. havent come.

Don't get me wrong. Im not apposed to development I just don't see distroying one renewable resource to extract another non renewable resource. I also don't see why I have to get shoved out after 26 years of what I feel like has been good stewardship of the land and game so a foreign company can dig a hole you could hide the moon in.

AKshooter is correct and unfortunately he is right at the heart of development, but if Pebble is developed the entire area for hundreds of miles around will be affected simply by having large numbers of workers, fishermen and hunters arriving, which will force the state F&G to go to drawings - just like the lower 48.
Are the folks here who want the Pebble mine developed defending what has happened in every other cyanide leeching mine ? and are they willing to bet their children and grandchildren's inheritance on it NEVER happening?

In speaking with the a biologist who is studying this, there is no way the Pebble mine won't do some harm to the Bristol Bay area. The question is how much?

Also, I can see the point why some would not want people from the lower 48 sticking their nose in this fight ut Bristol Bay is and has been an area for us all to enjoy. I want to be able to have my say and not leave this debate only to the people who may have something to gain from this mine.

ddj

The folks arguing that outside money should not affect our resources are forgetting that the companies that own the "rights" to the Pebble mine are not Alaskans - they are not even a US owned corporation. Their only interest is to take the resources and the money and then move on - just as they have in S. Am and Africa - and we can have the tailing and seepage and any remaining fish and game and US taxpayers can foot the "clean-up" bill.

And they can't even hire Alaskan pilots. There all Kiwis (not that I really have a problem with that I just wonder how they got ther green cards)
I guess they could buy me off with a flying job but 3100 hours PIC in a supercub and I still coulden't get a chopper started.

Anyway seems like the only ones not making money off this are the Alaskans.

I was going to fly on that but got side tracked with an IRS audit, at the time they were talking about 3 trillion dollars worth of gold in the ground, that was when gold was 400 dollars an oz. Gold it a little more than double. It don't matter a wit what anyone says or dose, at some point they are going to go and do it, for the simple reason, they are going to want the money. Akshooter, Starting a jet ranger is no trick, all you do is press the starter button wait till the Compressor N1 reaches 15 % adjust for out side temp, then you roll the trottle to the first indent, watch the temp and when you get to 62% N1 or so, release the starter button. let the thing run for a min then roll up to 70 and engage the generator, then roll up to 100 % and well that is pretty much it. Do it a couple of times and it no big trick. who has the contract now? Egli Air haul was tied up with them for a bit.

Mining Copper is not drilling for Oil or NG or timber even. It is a forever Cost decision for all intents and purposes. It is not a forever revenue decision.
I would suggest to the Alaskan folks who care about this that they start working the economic impact side of the story, not short selling the economy of hunting, fishing and tourist industries. Time is money and time is on your side. Whatever the take out of the copper mine is, it is finite and the backend costs are huge and the risks/impacts are forever. Properly managed, your industries as configured can go on in a growth curve forever. Forever is a big multiplier...
Good luck.
dmw

By the way; I grew up in SW Colorado. Google Summitville mine and read away. The next guy always will promise better technology and better management. We want to hope so thus we do. Pits are Pits and heavy metals are heavy metals under even the best circumstances.
best regards,
dmw

Scott hit it right on the head, its a trade off. Everything we build no, matter where, we're trading land and nature for man's material object. Whether you build a house above Anchorage or shed in Fairbanks, your putting a footprint on the the land.
I'm in the build responsible corner. Everyone commenting here has disrupted the land, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

We all make a footprint on our environment. The Pebble Mine will be more than a footprint. This will not be able to look as it does today if the mine opens. The land will FOREVER be changed!

Also, we cannot let the economic benefit of a few outweigh the impact of this natural resource for the many!

ddj

Well, I started this thread and I must say that I am impressed with the level of discourse so far.
Peter.

Oh yeah well F......, F.........,F.........!

Aww kidding of course. Its not an easy issue and the opinions vary as much as the geography of posters.

I've a lifetime experience in the mineral extraction business. I produce oil. If they calculated my Carbon Footprint, I'd probably be elligble for the death penalty.

The Pebble Mine will be an open pit a mile across. The tailings pond will have a earthen dam larger than Three Gorges in China. This will be contaminated with heavy metals much like the big hill right beside Telluride Co. Go see it sometime; it will have to be from a distance since they won't let you walk on it. Hope Pebble will be handled better.

The oil business has nowhere near the pollution and enviromental impact of an open pit mine and it's associated facilities. For instance, when I have an oil spill, it's like the dead dog on the side of the road. You won't picnic there now, but it is completely biodegradeable, and next year the grass will be greener at that spot.

Pebble mine has large reserves of precious minerals. The State has a royalty on it. Guess which side the State will fall on? Revenue from fishing and hunting licenses in that area don't even compare.

I'm not an anti development type. But for the sake of the sportsmen in that area, I wish they were opening a Pebble oilfield instead.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
I'm torn on this one. I try not to listen to the ads on TV, etc cuz each side is gonna make the other look bad (shocker), same point I also dont live near a mine, so I dont have a 1st hand knowledge on the reprocussions.

With todays EPA laws you would think a mine would be safe but on the other hand how many "accidents" have happened on the slope?

.,.
. I spend a good amount of time in Prudhoe , I see the ga gillions of Swans Cranes Geese and ducks that spend the summers there , And the Musk Ox , and the Caribou , ect. ect. ect. ... Alot of the work I do is in re mediating the soil that may have contaminants in it ..... I get paid fairly well to clean the earth up ,( AINT I SPECIAL )...... There are so many environmental regulations and hoops we have to jump thru daily (90) % of you would have a cuss fit if I were to follow you around and make you follow the procedures we have to just to do the simplest tasks .......... If we have even a 1 pint spill of fluids we stand the very real danger of loosing our contracts with BP , Connoco Phillips , or what ever company has contracted the company I work for as a Union Laborer ............. Crippling Alaska's industry only helps Russia , the Middle East and other oil, mineral and natural resource producing nations ......... If you want to hope for something , hope for a very profitable mine .. Because with the profit comes the ability to expand environmental controls .................I have also worked @ Red Dog , and compared to the locals shooting up the Musk Ox , and caribou herds and leaving the carcasses to rot , the Dog produces practically nothing bad .. But it does pump LOTS AND LOTS of money into that region .. And it is a darn good place to earn a living !!! Prudhoe is also , but Prudhoe , well it's Prudhoe , if ya havn,t been there it's hard to explain ..... Same as the Kensington , Couer Jualin Mine in Berners Bay . , Fort Knox ,, Greens Creek .................. Wealth HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE !!!!!! Wealth doesn,t come from TAXES .. Someone actually has to do , create , extract , produce ,grow , a product or service .................. I'm staying calm so far ...Thats good !!!! Without a resource base there is no start for wealth .. Without wealth there are no schools , hospitals , colleges , programs ect. ect...............If yall think the US can pay the intrest on the loans we have with the World Bank ect without resource devlopment you are smokin crack !!!!!!!!!
Yes I hope they never have a spill , but all this environmental Blathering on is more about further bankrupting the USA than it is about the environment ............... Remember .. follow the money .....Who stands to gain by there being no industry in Alaska !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
AKshooter is correct and unfortunately he is right at the heart of development, but if Pebble is developed the entire area for hundreds of miles around will be affected simply by having large numbers of workers, fishermen and hunters arriving, which will force the state F&G to go to drawings - just like the lower 48.
Are the folks here who want the Pebble mine developed defending what has happened in every other cyanide leeching mine ? and are they willing to bet their children and grandchildren's inheritance on it NEVER happening?

..
.
. I,ll try to keep this from becoming a quag mire ..................If we are following the money , then if the Commercial Services people profit from the region , what real right do they have to say some other group has no right or reason to profit from the area ........ And as far as children and grand children ... How much debt do you think the current White House resident has DUMPED onto your children and grand children ..... That gold is coming out of the ground , because the US is basically bankrupt ..

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
We all make a footprint on our environment. The Pebble Mine will be more than a footprint. This will not be able to look as it does today if the mine opens. The land will FOREVER be changed!

Also, we cannot let the economic benefit of a few outweigh the impact of this natural resource for the many!

ddj

Sorry have to jump on this one too ...... Fishermen !@@#$)(*&^%^&*&^%$#@! fishermen @#$%^&*(*&^%$#@! run their mouth )(*&^%$#@!fishermen ............ Those who would kill the last fish in the sea for their profit , but will say ( we will tell you if you can fall a tree or dig a hole ....... If you think there is any where near the amount of fish or crab in the Bering sea as there was 30 years ago , your out to lunch ... Ya know where it went , in a fish hold on some white guys boat !!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
I've been bitting my tounge on this one for years and now it's time speak up.

For anyone who belives pebble won't cause a problem here's some news for ya. It already has.

I started my outfitting business after a few years as an assistant guide in my partners grandfathers guide area in 1983. We bought that area the next year and hunted it ever since.

That area wich I have come to love over the last 26 years included both the north and south fork of the Koktuli river and all of upper Talarik creek. Pebble mine hit me right in the center of all this.

I have wached mine activity grow over the course of the last couple decades and in the early years it was no problem at all. However for the past few years the helocopter traffic has become rediculas. At no time would there not be the droane of a helocopter somewhere in the distance. At no time could you stalk an animal and not worry that a chopper would fly overhead at the worst possible time and worst of all I have sat on a vantage point over looking a vally that I've hunted for a couple of decades and had a helocopter land in the middle of the vally and start doing what ever it is that they do. One time I had about 80 pounds of bear hide on my back when I nearly stepped into one of there holes they drill for core samples.

I'm not saying that the mine has at this point affected the game populations in the area. So far they have only impacted what should be a good wilderness expieriance for me and my clients and hampered our ability to take game.

Haveing said that this is what has happened during the exploration process. So far the roads, bulldozers, hudge power plant, new community's and mining camps, additional barge traffic up the Kvichak, etc. havent come.

Don't get me wrong. Im not apposed to development I just don't see distroying one renewable resource to extract another non renewable resource. I also don't see why I have to get shoved out after 26 years of what I feel like has been good stewardship of the land and game so a foreign company can dig a hole you could hide the moon in.

.
.
. I had a wonderful life in Southeast Alaska . spent my time in the wilderness ... It was great and profitable until too many environmentalist lawyers made it too unprofitable to have a viable timber industry .... A totally renewable resource ............. I and thousands like me had to go so that no one can do nothing ... ................. And On the flip side , what is wrong with ( those other people) who will come and make Alaska their home because they came and worked @ The Pebble Mine ............ I could understand . If we tried to pass legislation to keep another lawyer or some other bottom feeder profession from coming into the state like some ignorant,.... down south !@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@! tv show !@#$%^&*&&^%%$$##@!crab fisherman ........Destroyer of the marine environment .... Oh , But .no one sees out there .... Or How bout the Cruise industry fishing out Sitka Sound , so there isn,t a halibut over 20 Lbs to be found inside Cape Edjecumbe &*()(*&^%$#@!fishermen .......... Ak Hunter ... I sincerely hope you are able to operate your business profitable for as long as YOU want .. I hope your way of life doesn,t come to an end like mine did ..... I very much want the Pebble to develop itself fully . and I hope you can peacefully develop your business also ..................

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Count me as against the mine as there is just way too much environmental impact, and risk of destroying the richest fish breeding grounds in the world.

I guess we should Shut in the Slope also then??
Count me as For the Pebble Mine!

I think there's a big difference between drilling oil in barren tundra and creating the worlds larges toxic lake held back by an earthen damn in a very syzmic area upstream from the world's largest salmon fisher. When the oil runs out we have a few holes it the ground. When the precious metals run out at Peble we get the world's LARGEST toxic lake FOREVER!!!!!!!! But that's just me.

Brett

........ I guess you have never been to the Slope ???? Few holes in the ground huh .........??????????????????Brett; I think you are a good guy , I might even pay you to work on my neck ,,, But you need to get around ,and get a boat load of experience with Alaska being YOUR HOME before your opinion gets weight .............. To date there are alot more Alaskans making a living from the Pebble than those being negatively impacted by it .........I am positive that will continue to be the case ..........

"Who's bread I eat - his song I sing"

Some peoople forget what made this country great and a world power. it was the ability to use the resourses at hand with out goverment inerferance. A lot of AK was mined dredged ect in the late 1800's and early 1900 with no controls at all. And it still is a great state.

If we let the envio wack's run things the only way this country is going is down.

We had one of rich's copper deposits not mined here because of the same fears. No jobs no copper.

If one always wants no change then there is no advancement.

I can tell you this; for me, it is for the people of Alaska to decide. Yes I have an opinion. I don't have a vote. I also don't need to know if it is "federal Land." The county I grew up in SW CO was about 75% "Federal Land." I know all about how that sword cuts. The Federal land we ran cattle on, built well sites on, re-claimed them when they were dry, hunted on, rode horses, motorcycles and hiked looking for Arrow heads is now the "Canyon of the Ancients National Monument" with lot's of new restrictions for the benefit of somebody somewhere who must be a lot smarter than the folks whom have cared for that land since Kit Carson rode by.
The People of Alaska are the stewards of this land and the responsibility therein. I trust them. So boys just saddle up and go work this out the best you can. Just don't let someone else make the decision for you.
best regards
dmw

dmw

There are alot of cases where resources have been used and in alot of instances overused. But if we quit fishing for Halibut inside Cape Edjecumbe or crabbing in Bristol Bay the resource will come back.

That is the difference I see in the Pebble mine, if the resource is damaged it will Never come back.

There are other options that the EPA and othr private groups have offered. Let them mine but without the Cyanide or open pit. It isn't as cost effective but in this instance money can't be the only incentive.

ddj