That red shure looks like an overlay of my hunting grounds. I don't know how much of this I should be letting out of the bag but the fact that suit was filed today in Alaska court will become public knowledge very soon.

I choose not to envolve myself although I was asked. Some people in the area oppose the mine and some support it. Ether way if I want to hunt that area/ community I have to live with all of the people there.

Wow. I don't live up there. Mining jobs are really well paying jobs in the middle of no-where. People in the middle of no-where usually do not have a chance to do much more than survive.

I don't think you can compare mining to oil exploration. You might have a few mud pits with nasty substances at an oil drilling operation. The real problem with oil is if there is a leak on the top side, which is overrated in terms of lethality to an area.

However, mining pulls up some bad stuff out of the ground. I lived and hunted not too far from a molybendum mine that had become a EPA superfund site in new mexico. It was near two rivers and was real problem. The tailings were just hanging up on the slope, and when they leaked out, it was bad news for the fish.

I am not a scientist, so I don't have any idea of how a mine of that scale could impact a fishery. It would be good if this project could assure that there would not significant contamination, i think it would be good for jobs. However, when things go bad with mining pollution, they get really bad. Might as well be nuclear waste.

The main hang-up that I have with Pebble is that it sits at the very headwater of the largest Salmon run in the entire WORLD and that it has to use the cyanide leaching process to dissolve the minerals from hard rock. Then it "promises" to contain the waste for all eternity in three massive toxic lakes behind earthen dams 700 feet high and over a mile long in a sisemicly active area of the globe .
The same promises have been made by virtually every mine and as soon as the minerals were extracted the companies disssolve and the mess is left for the locals to live with.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The main hang-up that I have with Pebble is that it sits at the very headwater of the largest Salmon run in the entire WORLD and that it has to use the cyanide leaching process to dissolve the minerals from hard rock. Then it "promises" to contain the waste for all eternity in three massive toxic lakes behind earthen dams 700 feet high and over a mile long in a sisemicly active area of the globe .
The same promises have been made by virtually every mine and as soon as the minerals were extracted the companies disssolve and the mess is left for the locals to live with.

Odd that you make claims of cyanide and three toxic lakes as there currently is no plan or permit for anything of the kind. If you are aware of a proposal from Anglo American to use cyanide or the three toxic lakes, I'm sure all here would just love for you to provide a link.

Your last sentence regarding the mess being left for the locals couldn't be truer.

I see you've changed your location on AR. Have you moved to Bristol Bay? If so, (and I'm just curious, sorry to intrude,) exactly how many miles from the Koktuli River and the Pebble project are you residing? I have this dim recollection that you used to claim Circle Hot Springs or something like that as your location and I wasn't under the impression that was anywhere near The Mulchatna.

As an update for any interested, the state Board of Fish held a sub committee meeting here in Dillingham last week and the testimony uniformly opposed mining at the Pebble site and demonstrated that by providing testimony supporting a range of regulations protecting fish habitat etc,..

390ish, The bummer about Pebble even under the best case scenario is that it is at the head of the Koktuli River, the spawning grounds for the Nushagak River run of king salmon. It just doesn't seem reasonable to believe anything other than the king run being diminished due to the thousands of gallons of fuel being burned every day just over the rise from the salmons gravel beds. Just the construction of a mine in any form much less the operation of a mine itself I would think would greatly impact a much beloved fishery.

Scott, Have you actually read anything published by either side of the Pebble issue or have you just been drinking their cool aid? All you have to do is look for yourself. I have seen reprints of public statements from the Alaska DNR Resources div, Div of Mining , Land and Water and their permit applications
titled Northern dynasty Mines,Inc " PEBBLE PORJECT, Application for Water Right, Upper Talarik Creek" July 7, 2006 which is accessable through US BLM http:/ www.blm.gov/ak/ado/BayRMP01.html
In their own words in their 1900 page permit application they are proposing that Pebble could become one of the largest open pit and underground block cave mine in the world with tailing pits to "contain" the leeched tailings held behind three dams over 700 feet tall and 4.3 miles long at the headwaters of the Koktuli and the Upper Talarik. Look it up.
As for where I live, My home of record and voting registration for the past twenty-five years has been our homestead in Bristol Bay although we also have a cabin at Circle Hot springs. The Central area is still primarily a mining community with a lot of well educated mining engineers who tell me that THE ONLY WAY to extract the hard rock metals from deep underground mines will be by cyanide leeching ( that is why the tailing pits) or else all the removed rock will have to be hauled out to be leeched somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The Central area is still primarily a mining community with a lot of well educated mining engineers who tell me that THE ONLY WAY to extract the hard rock metals from deep underground mines will be by cyanide leeching ( that is why the tailing pits) or else all the removed rock will have to be hauled out to be leeched somewhere else.

458Win, your engineers are misinformed or else not that well educated.

Cyanide (in the form of sodium cyanide in solution) is used to take gold into solution. It can be done outdoors in pads (carlin nevada) or in vats (common everywhere).

Pebbles is a low grade copper deposit. The gold will be extracted with the copper and only recovered at the smelter.

The copper is in the form of a copper-iron sulfide (chalcopyrite) which is recovered from the ore by simple grinding to approx 180 mesh (think sandpaper grit), and then flotation using relatively benign chemicals (soap, pine oil, and an organic compound potassium xanthate.)

Aproximately 2% by volume of the ore processed will be hauled away as concentrate and sent to smelters. The rest goes into the tailings ponds, which are the main environmental hazard in both short and long terms.

The waste and low-grade piles, which will be in the 2-5 billion tonne range, make up the biggest long term risk, in terms of acid run-off, as the iron sulfides oxidize.

One point I think is being missed here is that the Koktuli and Upper Talerik are two diferant drainages yet there both at risk. Upper talerik flows into lake Iliamna and any problem there would put the whole Kvichak system in trouble. The Koktuli flows into the Mulchatna then the Nushagak system.

Ground zero for pebble is between frying pan lake ( the upper most headwater for the Koktuli) and wiggly lakes (the upper most head water for upper Talerik)

This location could not have been planned for greater distruction by Osama bin Laden.

That does not sound like a good lace for a mine to me.

Too big a chance of very bad environmental negative impact.

Also I do not think it would be worth all the damage to the area for only a 2% return.

I am not a miner, is a 2% ore recovery standard in a copper mine?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
That does not sound like a good lace for a mine to me.

Too big a chance of very bad environmental negative impact.

Also I do not think it would be worth all the damage to the area for only a 2% return.

I am not a miner, is a 2% ore recovery standard in a copper mine?

its not 2% recovery or return, when the ore is processed, the copper bearing minerals represent around 2% by volume and once extracted, goes to the smelter. The rest goes to the tailings ponds. Actual recovery of contained copper will be 90-ish percent.

Using rough numbers and rules of thumb, if, ultimately, 2 billion tonnes are mined from Pebbles;

1.96 billion tonnes will be ground to a fine slurry and 'contained' behind earth-fill dams.

2-3 billion tonnes of waste and low grade will blasted, transported, and stacked somewhere and the sulfide minerals (probabaly 1-3%) will experience accelerated oxidation from being broken and stacked.

Something for Alaskans to think about, is that Pebbles will only be economic with HUGE concessions from the State in terms of electric power.

If you are interested and have google earth, find Pebbles, and then find Bingham Canyon in Utah, and Highland Valley in British Columbia and that will give a sense of scale in terms of impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

I went back and looked at my previous posts on this thread and saw nothing that I thought promoted Pebble. Odd that the insinuation is that I am somehow shilling for them. Anybody see something I didn't?

Scott, Since you haven't "officially" stated your opinion on Pebble - what is it? Do you think it should be givin the go ahead or notAnd do you think the possible long term environmental and subsistence consequenses justify the short term econmic gains?

Freeminer; Thanks for your input on mining. WE all need to hear the facts from both sides as this will affect all of us who live in, hunt, fish or visit the area.

So, if I understand it correctly, for every 100 pounds of "stuff dug up", there will be 2 lbs that contain "ore" and 90% of that will be pure copper.

It does not seem like the "return" is worth the land damage to me, and the possibility of ruining the Fishery, not in that location.

And if the State of AK gives HUGE concessions on electricity, they will probably get HUGE concessions on taxes, utilities, etc...

So in effect the State will be "Paying" a big company to come in, dig a BIG hole in the ground, leaving Billions of Tons of Toxic Waste, ruining a couple sustainable natural resources, just so a few fat cats can make a few bucks....

Doesnot seem like a good investment for the State or People of Alaska, or the rest of the USA to me.

Originally posted by Free_Miner

Something for Alaskans to think about, is that Pebbles will only be economic with HUGE concessions from the State in terms of electric power.



And thats one of the best points here. There is no exisiting facility to generate the kind of power pebble will need for over 100 miles.

If not one drop of contamination (big if) spills into ether of the threatened waterways you still can't say this develpment won't harm the environment. The infrastructure built to support the mine will be monumental.

All the roads where there were none before, a hudge power plant, there will be small communitys built near the mine for the workers etc.

And as far as moving that 2% of ore to a smelter. Well they'll have to build that also and a road from pebble to the existing portage road at williamsport so they can ship the product out. This is no small development by any means. This will forever change the complection of lake Iliamna.

What we have in the Iliamna regeon is probably simelar to what the Kenai was like in the 30's before the seward hwy was built in 1951. Do you think that someone who fished the Kenai river back then wouldn't be shocked by the change today.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
So in effect the State will be "Paying" a big company to come in, dig a BIG hole in the ground, leaving Billions of Tons of Toxic Waste, ruining a couple sustainable natural resources, just so a few fat cats can make a few bucks....

Welcome to corporate run America.

It's no different than what is going on at the Athabaskan Tar Sands, which dwarfs Pebbles in terms of scale.

It's also really no different than what is going on in Detroit, the industry which, in turn, necessitates projects and consumption like the Athabaska Tar Sands and Pebbles.

There's only one biosphere, we all share it, we all want to maintain our standard of living, and something is going to have to give.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Scott, Have you actually read anything published by either side of the Pebble issue or have you just been drinking their cool aid? All you have to do is look for yourself. I have seen reprints of public statements from the Alaska DNR Resources div, Div of Mining , Land and Water and their permit applications
titled Northern dynasty Mines,Inc " PEBBLE PORJECT, Application for Water Right, Upper Talarik Creek" July 7, 2006 which is accessable through US BLM http:/ www.blm.gov/ak/ado/BayRMP01.html
In their own words in their 1900 page permit application they are proposing that Pebble could Hey! Lookie there! "Could'! become one of the largest open pit and underground block cave mine in the world with tailing pits to "contain" the leeched tailings held behind three dams over 700 feet tall and 4.3 miles long at the headwaters of the Koktuli and the Upper Talarik. Look it up.
As for where I live, My home of record and voting registration for the past twenty-five years has been our homestead in Bristol Bay although we also have a cabin at Circle Hot springs. The Central area is still primarily a mining community with a lot of well educated mining engineers who tell me that THE ONLY WAY to extract the hard rock metals from deep underground mines will be by cyanide leeching ( that is why the tailing pits) or else all the removed rock will have to be hauled out to be leeched somewhere else.

Could. Bristol Bay could be transported to the southern hemisphere. Alaska could be invaded by Martians. I could win the Mongolian lottery. Yep, the mine concept that has no plan, no permit, no approved anything could poison the water. You could win a Pulitzer.

An application for water rights. No application for a mine. Water rights. Per your post. Please do add links for permit applications for a tailings pond or cyanide leaching as you are able.

I have mixed feelings about the mine. Thanks for asking. As I have mentioned before, I do not believe a development in any form would not harm the habitat. On the other hand, the villages are dying as a result of the subsistence lifestyle. (Anybody that thinks subsistence as a lifestyle can be practiced with $6.00 per gallon gasoline has obviously never tried.)Dillingham, Bristol Bay, Alaska and as I remember most of the United States and earth operate on a cash economy. I haven't met an oil man yet willing to barter salmon for fuel. Bristol Bay needs jobs that pay money, not Stinky Heads. Pebble "could," as you say, provide those. On the other hand, many here in Dillingham are working very hard at improving our salmon based economy thru value adding and increasing tourism. Clearly even obviously cleaner than a mine.

So, I hope I have made my position clear; I have none. I'll wait for the permitting process and then make an educated decision for myself based on facts, not Trout Unlimited Kool Aid.

BS'ing the registrar of voters doesn't make you a Bristol Bay resident.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

So, I hope I have made my position clear; I have none.

SCOTT : For a man without any opinion you sure like to argue. In addition you must not like to read as you either haven't - or refuse to - read the info that you ask me to furnish. Nor have you obviously bothered to look at my web to see where I live.

A MAN WHO DOESN'T TAKE A STAND FOR SOMETHING - WILL STAND FOR ANYTHING

We have the lovely Tulsequah Chief mine mess down here.



Located in Canada near the border. The owner, Redcorp Ventures, has gone belly up, so there's no one to clean up this mess, except Canadian taxpayers.

This is the headwaters of the Taku River - one of the better systems in southeast, but not even close to Bristol Bay's importance to fishing.

SHE DUMPS 190,000 GALLONS OF SULFURIC ACID TAINTED WATER INTO THE RIVER EVERY DAY FOLKS!!!

http://www.juneauempire.com/st.../loc_524670626.shtml

Just a friendly reminder to those who believe the Mine Companies enviro-friendly PR sales pitches and don't believe corporations ever have royal fupducks or walk/go away and leave us with the toxic mess.

Those who forget the past . . . (well, you should know the rest of this one . . . )

That is only ONE such disaster, further south on the BC coast, we had "Britannia Beach" which essentially poisoned Howe Sound for decades after IT was closed....local pulpmills helped as well. But, hey, we HAD an "economy"......

The "Athabaska Tar Sands" is poisoning the fifth largest river system on Earth and will continue to devastate northern Alberta. This is to supply "secure" oil to the USA and at a price equal to what we Canucks must pay for our own oil....but, hey, Alberta has an "economy".....

Things in resource development have to change and soon and projects that endanger any aspect of the biosphere should be left to wait until there is, if there ever is, the technology and social maturity needed to safely exploit them.

It's up to Alaskans, but, from what I see, I hope you guys do not develop "Pebbles" and save your Salmon as our vile governments have not done here.

An American poet, e.e. cummings said it best, ...pity this busy monster, manunkind, progress is a comfortable disease....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/us/26alaska.html?hp

Story about the death of rural Alaska. What timing! Too frigging funny.

Well boys all I can say is Happy Thanksgiving !!!

"Ft Knox and Red Dog are small compared to what is proposed at Pebble and neither sit at the head of the Largest remaining Salmon run in the World. Mines always promise to never pollute and almost without exception - when they have extracted the $$ they file bankruptcy and leave the mess for others to clean up. That is history and a proven fact. Pebble naturally promises to never have an accident - but an accident there will be on a catastrophic level for the state's salmon industry and all the surrounding jobs like guiding and hunting.
I can not believe there are hunters and fishermen here who take such a short sighted view of our resources.
As Alaskan's we all get a percentage of the oil revenue but how much of the gold and copper mined do we get?"

Phil pretty well summed up my thoughts on Pebble. I'm absolutely against it. There is no way something on that scale, can be done without an eventual disaster. And we sure as hell don't need yet another foreign parasite sucking the resource and $$$ out of the state. Not to mention having a large portion of the payroll leave the state, as happens with most all Alaskan jobs that offer a "rotation" type work schedule.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by akjeff:
"Ft Knox and Red Dog are small compared to what is proposed at Pebble and neither sit at the head of the Largest remaining Salmon run in the World. Mines always promise to never pollute and almost without exception - when they have extracted the $$ they file bankruptcy and leave the mess for others to clean up. That is history and a proven fact. Pebble naturally promises to never have an accident - but an accident there will be on a catastrophic level for the state's salmon industry and all the surrounding jobs like guiding and hunting.
I can not believe there are hunters and fishermen here who take such a short sighted view of our resources.
As Alaskan's we all get a percentage of the oil revenue but how much of the gold and copper mined do we get?"

Phil pretty well summed up my thoughts on Pebble. I'm absolutely against it. There is no way something on that scale, can be done without an eventual disaster. And we sure as hell don't need yet another foreign parasite sucking the resource and $$$ out of the state. Not to mention having a large portion of the payroll leave the state, as happens with most all Alaskan jobs that offer a "rotation" type work schedule.

Jeff

Boy, as a Canuck, I hear ya! Look at the huge disaster of the "Athabaska Tar Sands" in northern Alberta, the huge foreign companies reap HUGE profits from Canadian raw resources and cheap oil flows south to a foreign nation to assist in THEIR economy and WE are left with a totally devastated landscape........

These resource and energy, i.e., ("Columbia River Treaty" hydrodams), mega-projects are GREAT....for the very rich and they totally f**k the local people in the ear. I am opposed to any of them on environmental and sovereignty grounds and I applaud those Alaskans who see what is really valuable in this situation.

We Canucks know all about a ...foreign parasite sucking the resource... as witness the smallscale hydro projects underway on some of BC's most pristine coastal salmon rivers and all to feed the insatiable energy demands of "Kalifornicated".

Yup we see truckloads of our raw logs going south, our best game under pressure from these same ...foreign parasites... and we really understand. I hope you guys who oppose it win.

Scott - Not making a decision, is making a decision.

I hope we will make our voice heard. Take the time to sign the petion and Protect hunting and fishing for the future! We will not get another chance!!

http://takeaction.tu.org/c.ntJ...cacy/ActionItem.aspx


http://www.sportsmansalliance4ak.org/


ddj

I would like to see two (2) examples of mines of size comparable to Pebble that have been in existence for ten (10) years without creating an environmental problem.

Theres your welcome to ar

Mr gumboot 458

Shall I assume from your post that you are unable to find two examples?

quote:

Originally posted by dfcjr:
I would like to see two (2) examples of mines of size comparable to Pebble that have been in existence for ten (10) years without creating an environmental problem.

dfcjr,

there are, literally, dozens of operations the scale of, and many much bigger than the proposed Pebbles.

Google 'world porphyry copper deposits' and you will find them. Highland Valley, Bingham Canyon, Duval, and Cananea in North America, Grasberg, Ok Tedi, Porgera and Bougainville in New Guinea, Escondido and Chiquiquimata in South America, the list is long .............

Some of them are 50+ years old, some have had problems (mostly tailings spills), most haven't.

Having said that, 10 years is meaningless.

Most of these are 30+ year mines. It takes decades for failures to manifest themselves, such as base failures of tailings containment dams, oxidation of sulfide bearing waste piles which creates acid drainage, depletion of fresh groundwater etc etc etc.

Secondly, the fish have been spawning in the area for thousands of years, so what if a mine can go 10 years without incident? So what if a mine can go 50 years?

Responsible development, unfortunately sometimes means no development. Risk can't be engineered away if the location creates excessive risks.

quote:

Originally posted by dfcjr:
Mr gumboot 458

Shall I assume from your post that you are unable to find two examples?

....
/
.
POSes who start their posting career on AR stirring the pot like that only deserve .

quote:

Originally posted by dfcjr:
I would like to see two (2) examples of mines of size comparable to Pebble that have been in existence for ten (10) years without creating an environmental problem.

There are no mines or any other types of development in existence for ten years or any other amount of years that do not come with environmental problems as you say.

Elk were removed from the Great Plains by grain farms. Atlantic salmon have been decimated by everything east of the Mississippi River. Automobiles in Anchorage Alaska and the surrounding region eliminate slightly less than 1000 moose annually. Development is bad for wildlife no matter where its promoted.

If you like or appreciate you hunting avocation, thank a miner. The steel you polish and the copper you send at more or less 2500fps toward its intended target are provided by a great big earthen gash in the middle of wildlife habitat, be it in white tail or caribou country.

Only a hypocrite could say otherwise.

It will be a sad day when the Salmon are gone from Bristol Bay and there are no moose or bears to hunt with all those nice bullets provided us by the kind miners who only had our interests at heart.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It will be a sad day when the Salmon are gone from Bristol Bay and there are no moose or bears to hunt with all those nice bullets provided us by the kind miners who only had our interests at heart.

.
.
. You don,t really think that will happen do you Phil ?? .. My dogs almost got troden under foot of a bull moose on the bank of Lake Hood a couple days after Christmas .Bigest city in alaska and it,s about over run with game animals ....... Thats like saying the guides are privetising a public resource and the people of Alaska won,t get to hunt, Their!!! collective animals because of the greedy guides who build permanent camps and destroy the environment ............ And I thot you lived on Chena Ridge or somewhere out of Fairbanks ???..... All I can say is with a trillion ounces of gold in the ground . In the words of Don Young , if you think it's going to stay in the ground , your smokin pot .

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
All I can say is with a trillion ounces of gold in the ground . In the words of Don Young , if you think it's going to stay in the ground , your smokin pot .

It seems like a lot of people are smoking something as that is the same argument they (and Don) made about all the oil in ANWR.

quote:

.. My dogs almost got troden under foot of a bull moose on the bank of Lake Hood a couple days after Christmas .Bigest city in alaska and it,s about over run with game animals ...

That would be due to there being wildlife habitat in Anchorage. What habitat will there be in a gigantic hole in the ground, and the polluted land and water downstream of it?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
All I can say is with a trillion ounces of gold in the ground . In the words of Don Young , if you think it's going to stay in the ground , your smokin pot .

It seems like a lot of people are smoking something as that is the same argument they (and Don) made about all the oil in ANWR.

...Just cause they arn,t on anwr doesn,t mean that oil is stayin in the ground ...

I would be all for Pebble if they can get the minerals out without being on the ground.

I'm not sure I would go that far Phil The problem I've had is there damn helecoptes swarming over my head like a bunch hornets.

If anyone thinks thats an exageration just go to upper talerik fishing sometime you'll see what I'm talking about.

For those interested in one possible outcome o f the Pebble Mine, I suggest you read "Below a Mountain of Wealth, a River of Waste" in the Tuesday, December 27, 2005 New York Times. A pertinent question might be "What percentage of the money realized from the mine could we realistically assume would remain in Alaska?" Would there be a contract thst required mine owners to hire a minimum number of Alaskans at a given salary? might be another.

quote:

Originally posted by dfcjr:
For those interested in one possible outcome o f the Pebble Mine, I suggest you read "Below a Mountain of Wealth, a River of Waste" in the Tuesday, December 27, 2005 New York Times. A pertinent question might be "What percentage of the money realized from the mine could we realistically assume would remain in Alaska?" Would there be a contract thst required mine owners to hire a minimum number of Alaskans at a given salary? might be another.

& all possibles are BAD? the sky is falling,the sky is falling,the sky is falling

It's safe to say I'm the closest member of this forum to this proposed monument to greed,destruction,wanton wasteland,and mostly stupidity. There's a few exceptions but mostly the greediest with a little to offer have proffitted the most with trivial contribution to the mine. The world record grizzly taken a few yrs ago was disgualified because the hunter drove his swamp buggy across a stream now the mine wants gouge a 40mile scar from the Koktuli River to cook Inlet,just the mere trail blazing will result in untold damage to river full of red salmon. These are not the miserable wrecks that inhabit the usual mining area's but the largest and most abundant run of salmon on earth. The money with a few exceptions will leave Alaska and the US and pad the pockets of greed who leave nothing but woe behind. It's been proven the world over and only a out write simpleton could argue against it. I've hunted,trapped,fished,and am married to a property owner of land on the Koktuli so my interest in this mess is far greater than most hence my strong opinion on this sick subject.

Did we solve this one yet???

Brett