--- Have been reading and researching , quite a bit now .

The opinion of the most experienced Brown Bear experts , and Biologists that specialize on Bears , seems to concur on several points .

-- That knowledge of Bear Behavior , ( so that one can better read Bear-body-language ) and general knowledge of bear environment ; -- can go far to helping AVOID , -- Bear Charges , and Attacks . --- Point taken !

The second point , often opined ; -- is that most Charges are BLUFF-charges , -- and because a Brown or Griz. is so dangerous and determined when wounded , the odds of surviving are in your favor , if you wait until the Animal is very CLOSE before you shoot , ( i.e. , wait for the Bluff to reveal itself ) . --- O.K. , again , Point taken !

But I've got to say here , that if you do that , and the gamble fails ; -- you now have a real , adrenaline-pumping crisis , on your hands .

Phil S., Shelton , and others , speak of letting the Bear get to within 20 to 75 FEET . -- Waiting for the Bluff to develop .

-- But then , maybe those REAL experts DO have confidence in reading the subtleties of bear attitude and intensions ; and/or , their ability to place pin-point hits under terrible stress .

How about the rest of us ?? Your average field stomper . --- What techniques , and DISTANCES-BEFORE-SHOOTING , -- will yield to US , the best chance of surviving ??

Everyone stresses " SHOT PLACEMENT "
( obviously , extremely important ) ; -- but few advise if it's best for average unexperienced folks , to aim Center-of-mass , or try for the ( highly unlikely ) Central-Nervous-System Hit ??

Many LEO training experts say that Center-of-Mass , is the only choice , under great stress .

But now , we hit another reality problem . So famous are Enraged Bears for soaking up lead , -- that I have NEVER read an outright opinion, as to what cartridge will reliably stop , ( say ) , a 900 plus Lb. bear , at close range , -- with a frontal Center-of-Mass hit ! -- Does anybody know for sure ??

Are the experts trying to tell us , covertly , that if CLOSE , and True-charge , -- Your ONLY chance is the CNS ??

( In that case , a FAL / Black Rifle , with a 30 round clip , -- would stand to be a good choice ) ! --- And Rapid Combat-grouping would be the ticket ! ) .

But no one speaks of this , -- it's almost like it was a taboo subject .

Look , -- Bear attacks do happen , and they are on the increase Nationally . -- they often happen to Folks that have done nothing wrong or stupid . --- They often happen at close range , and the victim has one to five seconds to STOP THE BEAR .

We need some CONCRETE GUIDELINES and sound survival techniques from our more experienced Outdoorsmen , -- especially those conversant with Bears .

What do we use ?

Where do we aim ?

How long do we wait before opening the party ?


------------------ MMCOUGAR .

Place your head firmly between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye When your time is up it's up!! No matter how many times and ways this question is asked there is no shure fire answer!!

Good luck.

MM,

You worry way too much about bears.....come to Alaska and see for yourself...there's not a killer grizzly behind every tree and bush.....not even an annoyed black bear.....stressing will kill you quicker than either....enjoy your time in the bush.

tsturm is right, there's no right or wrong answer....what's right today will change as surely as the wind and circumstances.

Joe

It sure is a site to see when a new fish guide waddles up to the house with a 44 super blackhawk And a Mossberg pump with about 20rds for each. When I guide fisherman or climbing the local mtn with family and freinds I'll pack a little heat but not very often. Jim

mm

You do seem a little obsessed with this bear thing. I think you need to come to AK and shoot a bear. Once you see that they die like anything else they don't loom as large or dangerous.

I just read over your post once again and I think you perhaps should stay out of the bush. I don't mean that as an insult at all but if you are really that concerned about bears I don't think you will have a good time anywhere in the AK back country.

Mark

*** GENTLEMEN ***

I'm aware of an old Zen proverb that says ,
" Those who justify themselves , do not convince " . -- I try to keep that in mind ; but in this case , I see the direction of my thread , -- being set up like a straw-man , -- so that it can be easily swept under the rug .

The intent was to get information from those in the center of Brown and Grizley Range , who probably have more collective field experience , than any other source on Earth .

I have studied Doc Herrero , -- read dozens of articles ; -- am studying Shelton's " Bear Encounter Survival Guide " , now . I have listened , with great appreciation , to Phil Shoemaker and others , on this Site , and have learned much .

I think I have some legitimate questions .

The Biologists often concentrate on Bear Behavior , and do not go into Firearms applications enough . The pure Hunters , concentrate on just that , " the Hunting of Bears " . --- Shelton promises to be pretty good , but so-far I havn't found the answers to my questions here .

I don't believe these are pie-in-the-sky questions . I would surely like to know the answers ; and believe that those answers might benefit many , ( including Alaskans ) .

As for myself , I claim membership in a small Club of those who have been attacked by a Bear , -- where "contact was made " . -- I was young , and it was a close call , but I was not hurt seriously ; -- so I'm sure it was not a preditory attack , ( Black Bear ). --- But that was the beginning of my personal interest .

My philosophy , on the subject , is real simple , -- like in the Boy Scouts , -- being prepared , is most of the candle . -- But I will admit , I find the subject fascinating .

Don't think I'm unduely concerned for psychological , obsessional reasons . --- I Worked as a Federal Officer at one of the most dangerous U.S Border duty Stations , for many years . -- We saw more crime , on average , in a week than most beat- Policemen see in a year .

-- I competed in major tournaments and instructed , in Martial Arts for fifteen years . --- So I am not partial to suggeations that my concerns are unrealistic .

If those who are interested , simply don't know ; or feel that they have to make comments against the answering of my questions , -- that's O.K. , it's your right .

I'm not trying to get absolute answers , -- just want to get the OPINIONS and thoughts of those more Field-experienced than myself .

Best Regards to all , ---- MMCOUGAR .

I personal find the study of animal attacks to be fun and interisting.

Asking about them and learning from others is just one of the ways.

Well, this guy is not going to tell you what to do each time, but he has lots of information on bears, including a page on bear/human confrontations in Alaska for the past 100 years. His name is Tom Smith, a biologist at USGS in Anchorage. You may want to look at the slide presentation:
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/staff/MFEB/tsmith.php

here is something to stir the pot...

http://www.gunblast.com/50Beowulf.htm

this 50 beowulf can do some serious damage...500 gr flat nose hardcasts or my new proprietary round the 458-beowulf (458 kaboom) is identical to the modern 45-70! throw 525 gr piledrivers @ 1800 fps! not only that 14 of them!!!!!!!!! semi auto! i dont care who you are how panicked you are how bad a shot within reason you can empty 14 heavy rounds or faster lighter 350 gr nosler partitions @ 2200 fps into a bear as soon as you can pull the trigger and recover!

come on bear charge me!!!

I've been hunting and guiding in AK for almost 20 years. I have been bluff charged by a brown bear once. He stopped his bluff charge at about 50 yeards. I have taken some excellent video while out hunting, as close as 10 yards, with the bear fully aware I was there. I think the best bear defense there is is understanding their behavior and posturing. They're rarely a threat.

There's an interesting artcle in today's paper about brown bears in Anchorage. good read, and a cool map showing the bear's movements in the Anchorage Bowl.

City bears

There is no substitute for shot placement. Period. that said, making a correct shot quickly while under stress is not easy. In that case the center of mass is what works best for most people and bore size does make some difference. So do multiple hits. I have carried the 500 Beowulf and believe it should be a superb close range bear stopper with proper bullets. I do not carry one for guiding because it is strictly a close range weapon.
Otherwise my preference for the 458 Win and 500 gr bullets is fairly well know. It works and works well. But so do the various 40's, the 375 H&H and still loaded 45-70's and the 338 with 300 gr bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
MM,

You worry way too much about bears.....come to Alaska and see for yourself...there's not a killer grizzly behind every tree and bush.....not even an annoyed black bear.....stressing will kill you quicker than either....enjoy your time in the bush.

tsturm is right, there's no right or wrong answer....what's right today will change as surely as the wind and circumstances.

Joe

Good point Ovis, I have lived and hunted since 1977. I have also photographed bears at McNeil River three different times and went to Katmai once. I do half a dozen day trips to Denali Park for the same thing. The closest encounter I ever had was when a partner and I were packing out a caribou and a grizzly came upon us and sniffed us and the meat. He stood there for about 20 seconds and my friend was crapping his pants and asked what we should do. I chambered a round in my rifle and in a loud voice said "If he takes three steps towards us I am gonna bust his ass". The bear turned around and walked away.
Don't worry about it. Spend the time practicing with your rifle instead. Cheers.

I've been fortunate to spend 30-45 consecutive days each of the last five years in some of the finest grizzly habitat left on the planet....I've been bear hunting since 1970 or so. The two pictures were taken at 50-60 yards with a point and shoot so the distances look greater than they are......this encounter started at 12-15 yards when I went to take a look this dry sow.....she disappeared into a swale on the bar and I thought I could get to some willows and get a good look....she had the same idea about the willows....she got there first and popped out, surprising us both.....we went through the posturing issues and she left grudgingly....in the first pic, she was still not happy but decided to leave.....the second pic is her taking one last look....she's wet from a soaking in the creek so appears smaller than she was.....she's an average, but none-the-less beautiful, artic grizzly. No close-ups....sorry, but at 12-15yds, the rifle was more of a concern than the camera





Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
MM,

You worry way too much about bears.....come to Alaska and see for yourself...there's not a killer grizzly behind every tree and bush.....not even an annoyed black bear.....stressing will kill you quicker than either....enjoy your time in the bush.

tsturm is right, there's no right or wrong answer....what's right today will change as surely as the wind and circumstances.

Joe

Good point Ovis, I have lived and hunted since 1977. I have also photographed bears at McNeil River three different times and went to Katmai once. I do half a dozen day trips to Denali Park for the same thing. The closest encounter I ever had was when a partner and I were packing out a caribou and a grizzly came upon us and sniffed us and the meat. He stood there for about 20 seconds and my friend was crapping his pants and asked what we should do. I chambered a round in my rifle and in a loud voice said "If he takes three steps towards us I am gonna bust his ass". The bear turned around and walked away.
Don't worry about it. Spend the time practicing with your rifle instead. Cheers.

Im confused as to why you didnt have your rifle loaded in the first place.
Seems to me like asking for it carrying out caribou meat in grizzly country on an empty chamber.

Jarrod,

Everywhere is grizzly country up here.....not many places where you can't find a couple....when packing in or out of the bush, some hunters do not keep a round in the chamber for safety reasons such as when crossing tussocks in the tundra where a fall is common under load or not....when reaching obvious grizzly cover such as willows in a creek bottom, thick alders, etc., some will chamber a round just in case and move it back to the magazine when clearing the cover.....good common sense will keep you out of bear trouble more than anything else.....be observant and try to avoid heavy cover when possible. Always be very familiar w/your firearm.

Enjoy Alaska, don't stress over the bears....the article posted above about the bears in Anchorage is a very worthwhile read....bears are just a part of Alaska visitors have to accept.

Joe

I for one, realy apreciate seeing this post. I and my son are going to Asaska to hunt grizzly/brown and Dall in Sept 06. 'specialy preciate the pictures.. I could make that shot if presented.. will be taking either an old freind 338 winmag, or possibly a new CZ550 375 H&H.. although the CZ is purty heavy to carry. right now I'm leaning pretty heavy towards the 338.. (lighter, Ruger M77 Mk1 thumb safety, no CRF) but always has been dependable. comments???? Les

Jarrord,
The only time I have a round in the chamber is upon final approach on a stalk or when I am sitting glassing. Other than that I NEVER hunt with a round chambered. And I will not hunt with anyone who does.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Jarrord,
The only time I have a round in the chamber is upon final approach on a stalk or when I am sitting glassing. Other than that I NEVER hunt with a round chambered. And I will not hunt with anyone who does.

Not trying to start a pissing match here but why would you not hunt with a round in the chamber. I mean there is firearms safety rule #1. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.

Very simple. A rifle is a mechanical tool and it can break. Without a round in the chamber it can not fire, with a round in it could if I fell. It is simply a chance I am not willing to take. Been hunting for 40 years and I never lost an animal yet because I had to take time to chamber a round.

*** REPLY TO LES STALEY ***

LES , -- My Son moved to Alaska last year , which is part of my interest in this .

My field experience with Brown Bear is Zip , but have had quite a bit of up-close , with Black Bear in the Rockies , and Sierras .

And , I've been a Gun / shooting enthusiast / reloader , since childhood . -- So it's been lots of fun , and fascinating , to try to arrive at the all-time best Bear-Defense weapon .

It's fairly difficult to get good info. on Rifle / Cartridge -vs.- Brown / Griz. Charges ; because , ( I figure ) , so few folks have had field experience stopping charging bears , with many different Cartridges , ( very Elite group ) .

As you probably know , -- the ( above ) handle -- ".458 WIN." - belongs to Phil Shoemaker , -- who writes Nationally , -- has Brownies in his yard frequently , and -- Guides for Brown Bear . -- Phil is one of those few who have stopped Charges with vartious Cartridges .

My take on all of this , is that it is good to make a clear mental distinction , between what it takes to Stop a big , enraged , Griz.-type animal at close range ; -- and what it takes to shoot and kill a relaxed Bear , under hunting conditions .

Then , you can make a good choice of a weapon that will do a reasonable job of BOTH .

Looking only at conventional Hunting Rifles :

If your primary approach is Bear-Defense ( bear charge Stopping ). -- Consensus of the experts makes .458 Win. with 500-510 gr. premium Softpoints an excellent choice .

If your approach is strictly Hunting , and especially hunting with a Guide as back-up , the popular range starts with .30-06 w/ heavy premiun bullets , -- through the .338's and .358's to .375 H&H .

It seems to me that if you want a combination that will do it all , -- with good PROBABILITY of success ; --- it's .375 H&H , up through .416 Mag. , ( both with heavier premium bullets ) .

Hope that helps , -- I do believe , strongly , that any hunter in high-population Bear Range , -- must consider the Charge when choosing his Rifle . --- There's Sows with Cubs , -- food smells around camp , wounded-Bears , and Surprised-Bears to consider . I've also read , recently that in some areas ( e.g. Kodiak Is. ) , -- the Bears come to gunshot noise , like it was a dinner Bell .

--------- Beat of Luck , MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Very simple. A rifle is a mechanical tool and it can break. Without a round in the chamber it can not fire, with a round in it could if I fell. It is simply a chance I am not willing to take. Been hunting for 40 years and I never lost an animal yet because I had to take time to chamber a round.

Well I guess you and I will just have to have diferent opinions on this subject. If I was a paying hunter I would not hunt anything that bites, stomps, claws or whatever without a round in the chamber. I would probably find another guide it were me. We have the right to have different opinions though.

To me personally though, it would be like going into combat with an unloaded rifle.

Jarrod,

For a minute, let's put the shoe on the other foot.....you're the guide, you have a client that you've only talked to over the phone or at one of the shows......you only know what you know about him from what he has told you...hunters get references from the guides, not the other way around...he's going to be following you over very rugged terrain, scree, tussocks, creek crossings, snowfields, etc.....do you want that client behind you carrying a rifle with one up the pipe? Do you want an inexperienced sheep hunter taking a shot at a bear that is posturing, isn't a threat and that he doesn't have a tag for, putting you in line for huge fines and loss of license? There are a lot of guides that don't allow it; some guides don't allow loaded(rounds chambered)rifles in camp, so, if you're booking a hunt, that should be one of your questions for the guide before you book....please, don't take this as a personal affront.....guides have enormous investments in their operations and one off-the-wall hunter can cause all sorts of problems.

Joe

Somehow someone may think I am a guide. I am not. I just never hunt with a round in the chamber.

Boom stick after watching surposely train law enforcement officers miss full man size targets at 10 to 12 yards with full mags of 223 out of m16 and Ar 15 I couild easy see some on missing a charging bear.

Snowwolfe I guess that is your choice to hunt with out one in the chamber.

I guess you don't bird hunt or drive hunt deer. You would come in a poor 2nd to most any of the guys I hunt with. We haven't shot anybody.

I don't bird hunt nor do I drive hunt deer. I am not trying to convert anyone to hunting without a round in the chamber. To be honest I personally know no one that I socialize with that does hunt with a chamber loaded untill its needed.

Interesting how people look at dangerous game rifles.

quote:

Obviously, the performance evaluation has to include bullets, softnoses, solids or whatever, like the X-Bullet. If we restrict the dialogue to softnose bullets, the .45-70 with a 400-grain Kodiak or Hawk with a .050-inch jacket is probably acceptable for Cape buffalo, assuming proper bullet placement. That also applies to the .375 H&H with a Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition. But, no matter how you cut it, a 500-grain, .458-inch bullet at 2,000 fps impact velocity delivers a tremendous blow, even on soft body shots. The same could be said of the .470 NE or the .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby or Remington Magnum. All assuming, of course, the bullet is up to the job at hand.

And as Paul Harvey says...Heres the rest of the story for those interested.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1273&magid=89

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
Jarrod,

For a minute, let's put the shoe on the other foot.....you're the guide, you have a client that you've only talked to over the phone or at one of the shows......you only know what you know about him from what he has told you...hunters get references from the guides, not the other way around...he's going to be following you over very rugged terrain, scree, tussocks, creek crossings, snowfields, etc.....do you want that client behind you carrying a rifle with one up the pipe? Do you want an inexperienced sheep hunter taking a shot at a bear that is posturing, isn't a threat and that he doesn't have a tag for, putting you in line for huge fines and loss of license? There are a lot of guides that don't allow it; some guides don't allow loaded(rounds chambered)rifles in camp, so, if you're booking a hunt, that should be one of your questions for the guide before you book....please, don't take this as a personal affront.....guides have enormous investments in their operations and one off-the-wall hunter can cause all sorts of problems.

Joe

Well put it this way. If the guide since they are normally the one in front had a round in the chamber maybe and that is only if there is no dangerous game in the area. I still doubt it though.
If there were no dangerous game I might. But then it would depend on the style of hunting we were doing. There has been several times with me that having a round chambered or not would of meant the difference between success and failure.

unless on the final stalk I normally don't carry a round in the chamber either. I think a lo tof this comes from the type of hunting being done. I don't know anyone back home who doesn't hunt with a round in the chamber but then falling down a mountain doesn't happen too often back there. I regularly carry the rifle, or in a rifle rack on my 4 wheeler or snowmachine. The extra second that it takes to chamber a round doesn't take that long.

Another thing that might have some bearing on this is that when people in the go hunting they spend more time on stand than they do traveling to and from, when you travel too and from you don't have a loaded gun in your car do you? Most of our hunting here in alaska is actually traveling to and from our "stands". We are traveling most of the time or glassing. Its only after a bunch of either that we actually find an animal to stalk. The chance of dropping your gun or falling while carrying it is much higher when rough rugged country is involved. I will normally carry the rifle with empty chamber and saftey off, its quicker to just rack the bolt and pull the trigger on my rifles that the safety keeps the bolt from working. The safty goes on as soon as the rifle is loaded. I regularly rack, shoulder, and shoot my 10/22 on jumped snowshoes, how much faster do I need to be. The one exception to this is my handgun is always loaded.

Some years ago there was a story in one of the outdoor mags about a guy on a solo hunt in AK. As he was hiking he was atttacked by a bear he stated he did not get a shot off because he didn't have time to chamber a round.

I guess he was afraid of shooting him self as no one else has around for many miles.

No proper gun control is what is is all about. Many times I hunt with groups of 8 to 10 hunter when pheasant hunting very ones guns are loaded and ready. We don't have people shot we don't have unintentional discharges.

We do have people tripping and falling over hidden objects now and then.

When needed a unloaded gun is just another fancy stick.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Some years ago there was a story in one of the outdoor mags about a guy on a solo hunt in AK. As he was hiking he was atttacked by a bear he stated he did not get a shot off because he didn't have time to chamber a round.

I guess he was afraid of shooting him self as no one else has around for many miles.

No proper gun control is what is is all about. Many times I hunt with groups of 8 to 10 hunter when pheasant hunting very ones guns are loaded and ready. We don't have people shot we don't have unintentional discharges.

We do have people tripping and falling over hidden objects now and then.

When needed a unloaded gun is just another fancy stick.

Thank you! Thank you! You deserve a standing ovation.

Are you claiming it is wrong to carry a rifle with the chamber unloaded?
I would bet in areas where the animals can bite back more people hunt without a round in the chamber than those that do. Unless of course you are on stand or on final approach to a stalk.
PS: I started a new thread on the big game hunting forum if you choose to debate this issue.

Once again you and your 9 buddies are in the "final stalk" situation in your pheasant field, while most of the time we would be driving to the field. Does that make it easier to understand?

PDS,

Hell, here on the lower K.Peninsula, we shoot those pheasants w/a .22..one shot in the head...no round in the chamber, of course....haven't been pecked or spurred once... . We also leave our chewing gum at the cabin so there's less chance of tripping over anything.

Joe

I hunt the same way Snowwolfe does, without a round in the chamber. Even when I'm guiding for brown bear.

In addition to that I tell all my clients to have an empty chamber until we have an animal to shoot at. Like what Joe said about the final stalk. It has never made any sense to have a round chambered while big game hunting up here.

Last year after a client and I tried to find a caribou that got away from us. When we first saw the bull he looked like he was going to come right to us. The client chambered one while we were sitting next to each other. After a few minutes, no caribou, so we split up about 50 yards apart so we could look at different places. When we came to the conclusion the bull had given us the slip he came walking toward me carrying his rifle in his right hand with the muzzle pointed directly at me. Well, he still had one in the chamber, so I had a loaded gun pointed at me. If this had happened while I had my guiding business the hunt would have been over. I was working for another master guide so I told the guy if it happened again the hunt would be over. I would call the boss and have him come and fly the guy out. Later when I told the boss what happened he told me I should have ended the hunt right then.

I doubt you can find a guide up here who would agree to a loaded weapon being carried around. In the instance I just gave my life was at risk. It just ain't worth it.

Ken

orvis that is a good trick shooting birds in the head with a empty gun.

Why would someone from Wisconsin and another from Kentucky argue with people from Alaska on how they hunt? Kinda silly.

Whos aruging they can hunt any way they want.

Beside hunting Wis and 8 or 10 other lower states AK and Canada I just like giving my opinon.

*** HEY ! ***

Youse guys are Hi-jacking my Thread into an argument on Gun-Safety ! -- How about some opinion on the original Questions !

I can't resist , though , -- interesting side-subject :

Per my experience , -- lots of otherwise cool headed Nimrods get real nervous , and do unsafe things when around guns . --- These are usually folks that are not highly experienced with firearms , -- but not always .

Add stress , and especially High-Stress , like a Griz. showing up at close range , ( or your Perp. pulling a weapon ) , and lots of highly trained L.E.O.'s fall appart on safety .

I'm mindful of the well known incidents where Officers who shoot at the top of their Agencie's qualification scores , and Competitions , -- miss 6 out of 6 , or 10 out of 10 , at rediculously close ranges , . . . . . WHEN THE PERPETRATOR IS SHOOTING BACK .

Same thing can apply in the Field , ( as in Buck Fever ) ; -- and same thing applies to Safe Gun handling .

I remember reading Elmer Keith , that admitted that one day he looked down and , DISCOVERED , -- that his single Action Colt .45 was fully cocked in its external holster . Whew !

So , point is , -- you can't even trust highly experienced People to be infallible .

So I understand fully , that anyone in a position of Autority , -- must specify things like , " no chambered rounds " , - until ready to shoot .

--- I was a Rangemaster for a while , -- and our protocol was ; -- everyone away from the weapon , - behind the safety line while others went forward to tend targets . No one could even TOUCH cleared weapons .

But the other side of the coin , is combat- troops , Law Enforcement Officers , and those in Harm's way . -- It would be unreasonable to expect other than , -- locked and loaded , with safety on , in these circumstances .

I would suggest that it's suicidal to carry otherwise . ---- I would further suggest that when in heavy-Population Bear Range , -- and/or while hunting Bear , -- you're qualified to be somewhat , In-Harm's Way .

So , if I'm to be with a Guide that I think is highly experienced , and HIS Rifle has a round chambered , -- and he wants mine empty , -- I'll comply .

But when alone , or with friends , -- My chamber is armed , W/ safety on . ( and I don't go into the field ( with Firearms ) , with anyone who I don't trust to carry out MY fanatical Safety precautions . -- That's it ) .

Now , -- how about some opinion on the original questions , please .

------------ MMCOUGAR .

Posted 13 January 2006 16:24
I just did some time testing with my son a well season bolt gun user.

Rifle in both hands safety on time to the shot.
avg for 10 trys.
1 second.

Rifle in both hands safety off no round in the chamber avg for 10 trys.
2.5 seconds.

Now if you have a empty chamber and safety on the time would even be greater.

On your avg spot and stalk hunt you are not going to loose the chance.

When one is talking about shooting jumped game or running game.

Or even more important selfdefense the 1.5 second loss of time becomes very important.

For information I did not tell him why I wanted to time him.

*** P DOG SHOOTER -- YOU BETCHA ! ***

I agree , in spades , with almost everything you've said in this thread . --- ( and , I guess it does relate back to Bear-Attacks , pretty well ) .

According to Herrero ( Bear-Biologist ) -- 95% of aggressions on Humans where , Contact-is-Made , -- the Human first sees the bear at 50 Yds. , ot less , -- with a very healthy % being at MUCH less .

I figured it out once , -- that as Bears Charge at around 35 to 44 FPS . -- a reasonable time frame would be that an armed hunter has one to five SECONDS to unsling and shoulder the weapon , -- and STOP the Bear .

When you superimpose , on this , the ability of enraged Bears to take lead , and keep coming ; --- well , I think the picture is very clear .

Further , the more shooters and back-ups there are ( with ready rifles ) , the better the odds that all will escape injury or death .

( I know that all of this increases the odds of injury or death from friendly-fire ; -- but , to me , this is just a reminder to be careful about who you hunt with ) .

Now , to those who are insistent on an empty chamber in Bear Range ; --- tell me again how you figure it ?

Tell me how one or two seconds don't matter .

Also , a good Shooting Bro. who knows I'm interested in this ; just sent me a Dec. 1983 Guns & ammo. Article by P.H. Capstick , entitled ,
" Close Encounters " . -- In it Capstick refers to John Taylor Pondoro's opoinion ,( and his own ), that for this kind of shooting / Survival ; nothing beats a very dependable Shotgun , in 12 or 10 Ga .

He sites how underrated most people consider the Shotgun on Big-Game / D.G. , -- and elaborates with lots of examples .

These guys are talking Thin-Skinned Game , of course , -- but they are also talking Big African Lion , 280 lb. Jaguar , etc . ---

And the point is that inside of 15 yds. , up to point blank ; -- an 800 Gr. Payload of No.1 Buckshot , is Just F - - - ing , terrible .

He speaks of belting the 280 lb. Jaguar in the face at 12 yds. with Double Ought , -- ( he was wounded , at the time from the same Animal ) , and I quote : --- " There wasn't much left of his biting end but a white spray of shattered teeth and a lot of hamburger that ended where his ears started . " !

He calls the Shotgun , -- " . . . . the most underrated potential defensive firearm in the World , especially against Dangerous , thin-skinned Game " .

---------------------- MMCOUGAR .