It would generally take longer for me to get my rifle out of the rack, unslung with tight cross slung, or off my pack frame than it would to rack a shell in. HOnestly I'm not that worried about bears either. I carry my revolver straped to my chest fully loaded at all times but have only got it out twice, once an a moose and once when a bear was a little too close, both times I had plenty of time to get a rifle unslung and charged before I would have needed it.

If you are aware of your surroundings its not too difficult to avoid bad situations. Its not like there is an angry bear behind every tree up here you know.

"Biologists aren't really sure. About 60 brown, or grizzly, bears are thought to live between the Knik River and Turnagain Arm, with a dozen more foraging in or near town. At least 250 black bears are thought to overlap the area, with a third foraging in or near town."

This is a relatively small area and heavy populated, bears in this area are in almost constant contact with humans. I've seen bears right here in town several times. Its still very rare that we have bear attacks in town.

url]http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7342792p-7249123c.html[/url]

"Now , to those who are insistent on an empty chamber in Bear Range ; --- tell me again how you figure it ?"

mm,

I've already expressed my opinion about being in bear country. Every time I'm in the bush I'm in bear country.

Besides being aware of my surroundings, I also understand bear behavior better than most folks do. I've done a lot of research on my own and try to read everything I can get my hands on dealing with bears.

A friend of mine loaned a book to me a couple of years ago which I thought was a very good read. It's "No Room For Bears" written by Frank DuFresne, who at one time was the fish and game commissioner up here before statehood. It deals a lot with the impact of logging on bears in SE Alaska, but has a great deal of insight on bear behavior. If you can find a copy it's worth reading.

Ken

I have hunted with guides and without and not for one min. would I want to be walking in front of someone I did not KNOW with a loaded chamber, I hunted sheep with a guide who was just coming off 14 mo of rehab his client had shot him in the ass while crawling up a hill, he would ask me every 15min IS THERE A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER at first he drove me F$#$#$ nuts until he told me what happened.

That said when i'm hunting with family or good friends or by myself there is ALWAYS a round in the chamber.

We have a rule in camp all guns are loaded not one loaded and one unloaded ALL GUNS ARE LOADED.

quote:

Originally posted by mmconcolor:
*** GENTLEMEN ***
The intent was to get information from those in the center of Brown and Grizley Range , who probably have more collective field experience , than any other source on Earth

Crap. It seems that I'm always late to the vittles! Been elsewhere again as usual. Anyway, mm, take the time to see where fellas like tsturm and ovis are from (and others)...then re-read this quote and apply it to their answers. If the location doesn't help you then look at a map of Alaska. Some of "those in the center of brown and grizzly range" have answered you. Know what that means?

best,
bhtr

*** BEARHUNT'R -- TETURM -- OVIS -- and Others ***

----- Counterpoints :

The following is with full respect , for where you live , -- and your experience with
( esp. , Brown Bears ) , Damn , except for the mosquitos , -- I'd give a whole lot to live where you do .

Believe you fellas have took me wrong .

I ain't over-concerned about Bears , -- this whole subject is pure fun for this Child . -- Fun because I'm , alas , a shameless Gun Fan since I was old enough to remember . -- Fun , because I was attacked , in a minor way , when a youngn' and it's engagin' to study up on this stuff , in the preventative sense . -- Fun because Bears is fascinating Critters , anyway . -- Fun , because my Boy just moved up to Alaska , and he and I have been scouring all the info. we can lay hands on , about Bear Attacks -- just because it's a self- sustaining , and damn interesting subject . . . and FUN !

We've read lots , -- but have been intrigued at how scarce , opinion is on the ideal Firearm and Cartridge for Bear / Grizzly attacks . --- we finally concluded that that is because not many have sucessfully tried a whole lot of different combo's on Charging Bears ( to compare ), -- and fewer yet have been charged a lot .

Hence this thread

In answer , Teturm says , If attacked , " . . . kiss your ass godbye " . Then , " when your time is up , it's up " . --- Humbly suggest , the next time you're in a car or plane , -- let go of the wheel for about 20 min.and tromp on the gas , -- and , hey , if your time ain't up , you'll do just fine .

Says there's no sure-fire answer , -- hell , there ain't no sure fire ANYTHING !

---- Tell me this way : -- say you're in high-pop. Bear environs , and there's been reports for a few months that there's about thirty Rouge 1000-pounders in your area that have wiped out countless head of adult livestock ( very unusual ) ; -- because they got into a field of a rare imported weed that made them a little crazy , bloodthirsty , and stone Fearless . --- You have to camp out alone for a month , out in remote bush to complete an important obligation . -- You have suddenly come into a million bucks , -- so you can afford any practical weapon(s) that you can carry , onfoot , all day long ---- .

With all of your experience , -- what would that weapon be ? --- That's all I'm after , just your opinions ; ( which I figure might be pretty good , because you live in Bruin Country ) . Not so hard is it ?

Ovis says I worry too much about Bears ! --- Hell , I don't worry at all about Bears , --- I'm having FUN . . . . LEARNING about Bears . I've done solo backpacks , where I had Black Bears in camp every night ,for four or five nights running . -- Always slept , except when they almost stepped on my head . -- I've banged pots , aggressed on them , thrown pine cones and rocks at them , yelled at them , shined my flash light at them , -- and otherwise kicked-ass , -- and then gone back to sleep . ( Never tried it on a Sow with Cubs , or a Bear that already had some food , though ) . --- And never had a Grizzly in camp either .

I hope to hell , there's not a Griz. behind every tree , in AK ! --- I've only seen four outside of Natl. parks , in my life in the Lower 48 .

Then youse were saying that there's no right or wrong answers as to choice of Firearms / Cartridge , shooting strategy , -- etc .

Hell , I don't believe that for a minute .

Maybe there's no ABSOLUTE choice that will fit EVERY circumstance perfect ; -- but I ain't asking for that , am I ?

Nope , just want to know what YOU think is the best Choice for attackin' Bears , ( NOT , for Bear HUNTING ) ; -- and what you know about shooting strategy , -- e.g. , how long to wait for the bluff , before firing , -- etc. .

How to best survive a Charge ?

If you don't want to answer , -- that's O.K.
You're bustin' my Chops .


---------- Regards , MMCOUGAR .

mmconcolor,

No experience hunting brownies, sorry.... If I did, I wouldn't give you such a run around.

I am appalled how, with the exception of one, no-one seems able to muster an answer to what in the beginning were straight forward questions.... rare perhaps, but straight forward.

I share your puzzlement at the lack of even half-hearted answers. "Don't worry about it" is not an answer. Knowing what your default response should be for a given situation is what lets one go about a high pressure task and "not worry about it."

"Okay, so it ain't likely to happen.... but if it does, then having "Plan A" beats the hell out of "don't worry".... sure, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, maybe one will be up to performing, maybe one won't...but at least one was smart enough to inquire as to the best course of action before the crap hit the fan."

It would appear the best course of action is some sort of "trade secret" or folks just really don't know or are unable to express in writing what they do know.

Just carry a hand gernade around with you all the time, at least that way you can take him with you. Shoot the biggest rifle you can handle, and pack the biggest handgun you can handle and plan to shoot it from your back. Can't give you any better answer than that.

You will be much better served by using some common sense and being aware of your surroundings. You spend too much time worrying about this crap and you won't enjoy your time in the woods.

If you want protection, then get yourself some high caliber auto military long arm.

If you want to hunt 1000+lbs grizzlies and brown bears with peace of mind and you can afford anything, get yourself a nicely stocked .375 H&H or some .400+ Mag.

Could you take a 1000+ grizzly or brown bear with less? Of course. What's the lowest one could go? Don't know. I'm sure .30-06s have been used.... maybe even a .270.

Hmmmm....

A similar request posted on the African Hunting Forum regarding Cape Buffalo Charge stopping or Lion Charge stopping would have had several "spot on" specific responses in short order...

Based on what I've seen here in the responses so far, one could easily deduct that...

(1) The hard core, kick ass, "got a plan & mean business" hunters must go to Africa, and

(2) The fly by the seat of the pants, hope for the best, "don't worry--be happy" hunters must opt for Alaska.

I wouldn't think so; however, that is how it's reading so far...

Interesting difference in perspectives between the two. I suppose the bush of the Selous in Tanzania probably IS a more dangerous place in terms of wildlife.

Then again, Alaska's Dangerous Game ain't exactly a walk in the park. Or is it? Seems only one respondant is really ready, willing, and able to directly provide much insight. I would hope it is not the case for others that "we only share that kind of information if you are a client and paying $15,000 to get it."

Could be the old, "Ah, not to worry, your guide will take care of any bear charges." Weak. Very weak.

IMHO, 458Win gives the straightest answer (no surprise) regarding cartridge recommendation and mentioning "center of mass" targeting for "most people".

I am curious though, what targeting does HE PERSONALLY go to when the whirling brown mass is closing in fast, the 25 yard mark has just been passed, and it's now showtime with one shot to win or lose the day....
CNS or center of mass?

Although I have only a few bears to my credit I do not feel like I have the experience required to offer recommendations for stopping one. That should be reserved for the experts like 458Win. Bear behavior is another matter though. Knowing and understanding bear behavior is not something that can be learned in a short period of time. 99.9% of the time the bear doesnt even want you to see him, nor him you. But signs of nervousness and stress are not always easily picked up. Even the experts are fooled on occassions. I spend a large portion of my free time photographing Alaska's wildlife and have gotten a "feel" for when to back off a critter. But one simply never knows for sure.

There is such a huge difference animal to animal as to how bears react to a shot that it is impossible to make an honest accruate assesment of what is the will work everytime combo. Especially since getting good information from hunters about where they hit the bear, how many times they shot it, etc.

My personal thoughts on a prudent minimum is a round that has sufficient penetration to be able to make it clear through both shoulders, and sufficient expansion to make a decent wound channel on a heart/lung shot. With that criteria, I see 30 caliber and under as being in the either or camp, you get either deep penetration or expansion, but don't sling a big enough bullet to get both. Step up to a 338 or more pusing 250 gr or more, and 2500 fps or more velocity and you can have both penetration and expansion. Bigger is better provided it doesn't adversley effect your ability to place the first shot, and if you can't shoot a 338, go with an -06 and pick your shots accordingly.

Hunting dangerous game is potentially dangerous, if you don't want that potential, don't hunt em.

"BROWN BEAR STOPPING"

Depends whether I am trying to stop him get away or stop him getting me. The latter seems more critical than the former,requiring more instantanious results. When the spin of the ball is in my favour, Id be happy with a 338,375, when the spin is in his favour, I like more the reality a 370NF-450WL .416" flying through the air to deliver my message.

Sorry, but easy answer!! "robgunbuilder" can build a FRIGGIN' HUGE!!!!! bear stoppper. So if I were afraid of being deffecated by a bear I would promptly send money to "robgunbuilder" for a 700 "Kill Anything" holy crap, s**t stomper!!

THe same people regularly bring this same question up. How many times can we give the same sound advise. Something as powerful as you can with a low powered scope, ghost rings, or decent express sights. Probably help if it is as short and light as possible for ease of carry, shoot center mass or head if possible.

I honestly worry much more about the few terrified guys walking around ready to spray lead at any sound they hear because of their irrational fear of "killer bears" behind every tree.

The very best way to stop a bear charge is to not get chared in the first place!

Your only real shot at stopping a bear that intends to make you its meal is a CNS hit with signifigant energy to disrupt said CNS. This will have quite a bit of luck involved.

*** BACK TO ELKampMaster , -- AND SUMMARY ***

On evaluating this thread , -- I naturally agree with ELKampMaster ( above ) .

-- Seems like some just hanker to say something ; but , being stuck for an answer , -- fire up a little derision for the questions .

Waterrat , goes a bit further , and characterizes those who show up for a fishing trip with a .44 Mag. and a Mossy Shotgun , -- as , " waddling up " to his place ; --
( read that , -- as looking pretty rediculous and overarmed ) ?

From what I'm reading , ( wide selection of authorities ) ; -- that's actually not a bad selection of weapons , at all . -- That is , if there's many bears in your fishing area ,
( or , a recent history of attacks ) .

The Canadian Govt . maintained a standard issue of .30-06's to their Mounties , for many years , because of Bear risk . -- They probably waddled and flopped around too .

Figure in this thread , I've been told a passel of times that I worry too much about Bears .
-- And by some that claim to live in prime AK. Bruin range .

Not sure if this is naivete' , denial , or maybe some live in a magic part of the state where there ain't many bears .

Because when you read public info. from various agencies ( e.g. , -- USGS , U.S. Park Service , U.S. Forest Service , BLM , and many State F&G organizations ) , -- THEY are quite concerned , about it .

--- Further , there are many towns in B.C and Alaska , that have serious problems with Bear Attacks , and current programs to deal with them .

Naw , -- that ain't important ; -- nobody should worry about bringing a mess of fish into camp . -- And anybody who DOES want more info. on this , -- thinks there's a Bear behind every bush in Alaska , -- Right ?

Tuck Mom away in the tent , kiss the kiddies good night , -- and don't worry about it Sportsfans . --- You can sleep tight , knowing that Dad brought his 3 Oz. Pepper-spray along ; -- ( but the 3 Oz. can is also discreet , looks cool , and don't make him waddle ) .

But , there has been some sound input , in this thread ; -- and I'm reading good confirmation for some of it , elsewhere .

I'm about 100 pages into Gary Shelton's excellent , -- " Bear Encounter Survival Guide " , -- and would recommended it highly to anyone concerned . -- It's a no-bullshit book , and the best thing I've read in some 4 yrs. of snooping around on this .

He has a simple apparatus for practicing the propper lead on a rapidly closing Dangerous- Game Animal .

As to choice of weapons , -- this is my own opinion , condensed from all I've read and heard tell of , so-far .

Given the closeness and speed of many Grizzly Atttacks , and the desirability of a CNS hit / stop ; probably a low-recoil , compensated Military .308 , in full-auto , with a 30 round + clip , would be the ultimate bear-stopper .

( MMaggi -- told of this [above] ).

-- But this is not a practical choice because of the difficulty in obtaining full-auto permits . ( And you'd really feel self-conscious waddling through the park , in Anchorage with one of these things . )

There is a good case for the most dependable,
( military tested ) Semi-auto Shotgun , in 12 Ga. , 3" . --- Breneke slugs are the fodder of choice , -- with a lesser case for Double Ought - or No.1 Buck , at extremely close range .

In single projectile rifles ; -- .375 H&H , through , -- the most powerful Stopping Rifle that you can hit well with . A 20" Barrel seems to be the choice of Champions .

The notion that it's impossible to make an intelligent choice of a Bear-Defense weapon , because there's too many circumstances / variables ; -- is true to some degree , if you are looking for absolutes , -- but don't try to float that logic with the better D.G. Guides and P.H.'s . -- Better to ask them what they carry for back-up .

Thanks for all the ( serious ) answers .


------------ MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by mmconcolor:

We need some CONCRETE GUIDELINES and sound survival techniques from our more experienced Outdoorsmen , -- especially those conversant with Bears .

What do we use ?

Where do we aim ?

How long do we wait before opening the party ?


------------------ MMCOUGAR .

After re-reading your initial post/questions and looking over the responses, it appears to me that you have received some excellent/sage professional advice from several who reside in big bear country. To compare their responses to that of similar posted questions on African dangerous game and responses given on the African Hunting Forum is out of context IMHO. Did you watch John Stossil’s report on the successful “program†that is used in numerous African countries to increase the elephant population? Ownership of elephant herds is given to the native tribesmen who in turn sell the rights to hunt decided numbers of elephants to the professional hunters. The native residents watch over these herds and care for them. They walk around and amongst these herds in their proverbial backyards. I’d bet these native residents would give much different responses than what is given by those who post on the African Hunting Forum.

As far as my own limited and non-professional experience is concerned:

What do we use?

- I’ve used a ’06 but feel a bit better w/ the 338WM. I feel comfortable w/ the 375H&H.

Where do we aim?

- When hunting bear. I look for center mass of the vitals. If I can get the shoulder and or leg area going in or coming out of the vitals, I’ll take it. This is a hunting ethics issue no different than shooting any game animal.
- When trying to stop a wounded bear from escaping. I’d take any shot that presents itself as long as I’m w/in range, have nothing between me and the bear and am safe beyond the bear. Ethics demands that wounded game animals be pursued, shot and killed. I would say that allowing a wounded bear to escape could potentially be very dangerous.
- Stopping a head on charge. I have one good experience w/ a head-on charge from a wounded bear I had tracked into a thicket. I am not good at shooting a small target the sized of a bear’s brain when I’m standing upright and it is coming head-on at a fast pace from a lower position. You must lead this target by aiming somewhere out front in the dirt. What worked for me was to drop into a low crouched shooting position placing the bullet path level w/ the ground and inline w/ the oncoming bear’s head. I pulled the trigger and the bear ran headfirst into the bullet.

How long do we wait before opening the party?

- This seems more of a self defense question than a hunting question. I’d say that decision is upon you to make and no one else. If you feel as though you or someone else is in immediate peril of injury and/or death, then you would be justified ethically in killing the bear. The problem here is your decision will be judged upon what is reasonable. Shooting a bear in self-defense that is over 100 yards away would be harder to prove reasonable than a bear that has you cornered and is w/in 30 feet.

I hope this is of some help,
Gary

MM, in all of your posts prior to the one that you answered me(just below my first on this thread,) your tenor had nothing to do with a "I just want to hypothetically bullshit about a possible bear attack/charge scenario." If that had been the case, you wouldn't have recieved many "cheeky" answers from those who tire of giving the same old advice on a question asked numerous times (and then most often from people that tend to read too many "Bear Attack" books.)Even then, your questions were answered. However, you did not seem to accept the answers.
Here's a quote by you:

quote:

Originally posted by mmconcolor:
Figure in this thread , I've been told a passel of times that I worry too much about Bears .
-- And by some that claim to live in prime AK. Bruin range .

Not sure if this is naivete' , denial , or maybe some live in a magic part of the state where there ain't many bears .

--- Further , there are many towns in B.C and Alaska , that have serious problems with Bear Attacks , and current programs to deal with them.

Not sure where you got your information from. Perhaps that information is what has you so concerned?
Here's a quote gleaned by me from the "BEAR CENTER."

Bear Center
Bears and People

The risk from wild bears:

One of the most commonly asked questions is, “How much of a risk are bears if I am hiking or camping in bear country or if I live in the country and they occasionally occur in my neighborhood.†While the risk always depends on how the person behaves and the events that brought the bear close to people, the probability of anyone being injured or killed is very low relative to the many other risks in our daily lives. For example, here are a few causes of premature deaths and the numbers of people dying from those causes each year in the US during the 1990’s:

Smoking-related illnesses 400,000
Obesity 300,000
Alcohol and substance abuse 110,000
Motor vehicle accidents 42,000
Gun violence 35,000
Deer/car collisions 130
(most deadly wild animal in the US is the
white-tailed deer flying through the windshield)
Lightning 80
Bee stings 40
Dog attacks 18
(4.7 million people are bitten/year,
750,000 require medical attention,
6,000 require hospitalization. 8% of all
dogs will bite someone in their life.)
Moose (all of North America) 6
Pet ferrets (primarily babies) 4
Grizzly bears (all of North America) 2

Thus, contrary to the images of bears portrayed in many sporting magazines and movies, concern about bears should not prevent you from enjoying the wild areas of North America or living with bears in your neighborhood. In fact, only four people have been killed by grizzly bears in Yellowstone National Park since 1839, even though well over 3 million people per year currently visit the park."

Does this help you any?


Here's another quote:

quote:

Given the closeness and speed of many Grizzly Atttacks , and the desirability of a CNS hit / stop ; probably a low-recoil , compensated Military .308 , in full-auto , with a 30 round + clip , would be the ultimate bear-stopper.

Good call! (spoken with TIC)


One more:

quote:

We need some CONCRETE GUIDELINES and sound survival techniques from our more experienced Outdoorsmen , -- especially those conversant with Bears .

What do we use ?

Where do we aim ?

How long do we wait before opening the party ?


------------------ MMCOUGAR .

Doesn't sound like a "I'm just speaking hypothetically again" to me, eh?

And one last quote:

quote:

The notion that it's impossible to make an intelligent choice of a Bear-Defense weapon , because there's too many circumstances / variables ; -- is true to some degree , if you are looking for absolutes , -- but don't try to float that logic with the better D.G. Guides and P.H.'s . -- Better to ask them what they carry for back-up.

Take it for what it's worth...I know a couple of PH's and D.G. guides or two. Go ahead and ask them the question (458win already did answer...but you don't have to forgo a second opinion.) I'm banking on those answers not including any "I would use an automatic weapon or a 12 gauge with buckshot" replys or statements.
Just call it a hunch...

bhtr

ps.
Any bolt action rifle capable of throwing at least a 400 grain pill at 2300fps works fine. Just an opinion...but one based on experience.
As to "when to shoot"...trust me when I say: "You just have to be there." It's sort of like having a guy pull a knife on you and you pull a .45 auto. If he runs, you probably don't shoot. If he closes, you don't think about it. You just do it. Make sense?

*** OBSERVATIONS BY THE BEARHUNT'R ***

If the tenor and tone of my original post caused a cheeky response , perhaps it was because I was trying to jar loose some direct opinion ; ( opinion in the form of answers to the original questions in this thread , and maybe even other similar threads ) .

ELKampMaster wrapped words around what I was observing in the interplay of this thread , better than I did .

To me , ( yes , subjectively ) , I was genuinely after information ; and hoped for an interchange of ideas , as well as facts . -- and surely expert opinion .

I did not expect , -- " don't worry about it " , and " poo poo , - you must think there's a bear behind every tree " .

Everybody that writes here is an adult , I reckon . If they are tired of the subject , (and/or those who ARE interested in it ), -- they don't have to play . They also don't have to be pejorative . Nobody's twisting their arms .

But it's all good , sometimes a poo poo attack spices up a thread ; what can I say , -- we all got our egos .

On Forums in general , it is rare to find humble , purely authentic , selfless , straight- up Bear-Charge Experts .

Some posture , most want to be well thought of , admired . -- Some condescend , some patronize , -- some play a hard game of " one-up " .

But I don't want any to think I ain't grateful for quite a bit of good input in this thread , -- answers to the orig. questions .

Your stats. on the rarity of Bruin Attacks are valid . -- Doc. Herrero's book talks about 41 Deaths from bear Attack , ( in the U.S and Canada ) from 1900 through 1980 . There's been siagnificant increases since 1980 due to various effects .

My favorite adage is that you stand a far greater chance of being wiped-out in the vehicle on the way to the field , -- than you do from a Bear Attack . I knew that long before I bought my first computer .

But it misses the point . -- I'm interested in Bear Attacks because I like nice country , -- like to be in it whenever I can . -- And I've been interested in Guns and Shooting sports , since little . -- The two go togeather , to me , like bread and butter .

I don't know exactly why this subject of Bear-Defense / Bear Attacks grabs me . -- Maybe it's because it's the last Major Predator out there that DOES pose a threat to Man . Maybe deep in my Lizzard-Pleistocene , brainstem , I'm a descendent of hunting tribes , and Bruins just naturally get my attention . --- Or , what the hell , maybe I'm just scared shitless of being et by a Bear , although it don't seem that way consciously . .

Now could somebody please tell me exzactly how to lead a forty mile an hour BEAR , that's coming straight in ; --- so he don't run under the bullet ?? ( And if your knees are too beat up to squat down on the Bear's level ) .


Nose To The Trail , --- MMCOUGAR .

I did a quick Google Search and came up w/ The Danish Polar Center/Logistics & Research. Though this deals w/ Polar Bear encounters, they cover all the bases. This info appears applicable to any bear encounter whether Polar, Brown, Grizzly or Black.

http://www.dpc.dk/Res&Log/ProjectPlanner/Safety/Wildlife1.html

I easily found validation of their "Where To Shoot" recommendations from several sources. These included recommendations given to me by others w/ more experience, my experience in the field and from published articles written by experienced professional guides. One such adventurous brown bear hunt that ended with an exciting charge, excellent hunter/guide skill and a huge bear can be read here:

http://www.deltana.com/information/alaska_brown_bear_hunt.htm

Make sure to follow the link and read the guides story on the same event as well.

In the context/spirit of being ethical in the desire to learn as much as possible about the game animal you hunt, I hope this information is of use.

Take a kid hunting and fishing,
Gary

mm,

With no further analysis I believe you should now reasonably well have all that you asked for.

It would appear that the Danes, both by virtue of their website and by the Danish Hunter in the Brown Bear Story have given the whole issue of bear charges some serious thought --- I particularly enjoyed the "bib" description.

Thanks to GaryVA

MM-

I dont' see where anyone said you didn't need to be bear wise. Food, and food odor containment being far more important than any weapon. Be smart, know your surroundings, and don't give the bear a reason to visit your camp site. I regularly camp out 20 or more days each summer in bear areas, usually around rivers which concentrate thier numbers even more. I fish in bear country even more. I see a lot of bears, 14 brown bears this year within 200 yards, 3 within 20 yards. I always carry a gun, usually a 44 pistol and a 45/70 guide gun, don't think me unprepared, but you can only gather so much info on these things. If you spent have the effort you do into stirring up bear attack stories on acctually practicing with the weapon you have you would be doing much better.

You want good practice, get a remote control car, attach a peice of coat hanger wire sticking stright up from it and attach a 6-8" ballon, have someone drive it straight at you from about 25 yards or so. Thats about as good practice as you are going to get. A few friends and I do this several times a year, its a lot of fun, you will quickly learn how hard it is to hit the balloon.

Being prepared is always important but being paranoid and obbsessed about it isn't important. If you really want to be safe spend have the attention to your camp and surrounds as you do to worrying about shooting one and you will be fine.

The danish info about shooting the bear is pretty sound, but a polar bear is much more dangerous than a brown bear, polar bears actually hunt people for food where a brown will normally avoid you.

*** FRAGMENTS AND PATTERNS ***

Yep , -- thanks to GaryVA , -- and many others .
( Even many who kept pushing the " You worry too much " , philosophy have contributed some good stuff ) .

Brad Garfield , in his book , suggests having your firearm ready at 5 to 25 ft. -- Phil Shoemaker , ( in another thread ), mentions a ( qualified ) 20 ft. range , to give a charging Bear a chance to reveal a Bluff Charge . -- But , ( reading between the lines ) , he pre-assumes a fine working knowledge of reading Bear behavior , -- he is an expert .

G. Shelton , ( author ), cites about 80 ft. as the range at which you begin to shoot at certain categories of approaching bears .

Several places , I have read the advice to begin shooting inside of 50 yds. if the Bear is charging in a low- crouching run , with ears laid back .

GaryVA's Polar Bear info. from Greenland , suggests 35 to 50 ft . , -- but stresses , as many others have , that it's a judgement call .

Reckon it's always a judgement call .

But as the bits and pieces come togeather , the student of this stuff , -- begins to see a pattern , or get some perspective , which is valuable .

My approach has always been to try to arrive at the ideal piece to carry , when in the field . Versatility is very important , -- but as long as you're going to be packing something , -- Survival is king .

Injurious or lethal Bear attacks are rare ( as above ) , but not unheard of , -- and they capture the imagination , ( of folks like me anyways ) .

This is heavily , a Hunting-oriented Forum . I figure any Hunter / Fisherman , and especially Bear hunters , are in many times the jeopardy , of non-hunting outdoorsmen , because of the smells they create . --- So this subject of Bear Attacks , should be of more than passing interest .

I , personally , have plans to log a lot of time in Alaska , -- and have always had a great fondness for the northern Rockies . -- I would think that anyone living in high-population Bear environs would be interested . -- Maybe not ??

The second of GaryVA's articles should put to rest the controversy over using enough Gun . -- Bet I've read dozens of accounts from good sources , of Large Brown Bear taking multiple solid hits from powerful mini-calibers like .338 and keeping coming . -- It must be so .

For pure Bear-Charge medicine , 500 Gr. Softpoint .458 seems to be the educated choice , if you can shoot it . And center of the frontal-mass shines as an aimpoint under stress .

Shot guns in 3" 12 Ga. seem to be the skookum choice for close-in work . -- But I would think the MOST reliable Semi-autos , that can rap out at least 3 grouped shots per second , are the best of the best .

-- Last year I purchased a Beretta Xtrema II with the new shock- absorbing hydraulic stock for just this purpose . -- It wears the Iraq proven EoTech Holosight .

-- So far , Im very impressed with everything but the price , ( shudder ) . -- Fast target-acquision is the best I've ever experienced . You can group real fast with the suckers , -- they have no less than 5 recoil dampening devices engineered in .

----- Nose To The Trail , -- MMCOUGAR .

I have been trying to avoid this column but want to add a few thoughts. One, bears are not a danger to anyone unless they are close and any good enforcement officer investigating a "defense of life and property" dead bear is going to take a pretty dim view of the entire situation if you started shooting beyond twenty yards. In the past twenty five years I have been charged four to eight times every year yet have never had to shoot an unwounded bear. The bears on the peninsula may be different - actually I'm sure they are - than Montana or the Brooks Range but the fact is they still can't hurt you from a distance.
As for carrying a round in the chamber. I never do unless I am alone and following a densly overgrown, recently well used bear trail along a salmon stream or, naturally, tracking a wounded one. I have seen two fatalities caused by people carrying loaded rifles and have a bullet scar in the back of my left thigh from an "unloaded" rifle a friend was carrying. I tell my clients that if I ever see them with a round in the chamber while on a hunt with me their hunt is over. It takes some time for a bear to kill you but one accidental round will change your life in a fraction of a second.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have been trying to avoid this column but want to add a few thoughts. One, bears are not a danger to anyone unless they are close and any good enforcement officer investigating a "defense of life and property" dead bear is going to take a pretty dim view of the entire situation if you started shooting beyond twenty yards. In the past twenty five years I have been charged four to eight times every year yet have never had to shoot an unwounded bear. The bears on the peninsula may be different - actually I'm sure they are - than Montana or the Brooks Range but the fact is they still can't hurt you from a distance.
As for carrying a round in the chamber. I never do unless I am alone and following a densly overgrown, recently well used bear trail along a salmon stream or, naturally, tracking a wounded one. I have seen two fatalities caused by people carrying loaded rifles and have a bullet scar in the back of my left thigh from an "unloaded" rifle a friend was carrying. I tell my clients that if I ever see them with a round in the chamber while on a hunt with me their hunt is over. It takes some time for a bear to kill you but one accidental round will change your life in a fraction of a second.

458Win, I agree with you on an unchambered rifle. I have never seen an incident with a rifle, myself. However a guy at work had his whole family stop hunting when his uncles rifle discharged and killed his nephew. Sucked all the enjoyment of hunting and shooting out of the whole family!

I have read your work and really enjoy your writing. Now I must disgree only on one point, bluff charges. The average elk or moose hunter here in B.C. will at some point come accross an ass puckering experiance with a grizz. Not equipped with the knowledge of a guide or experianced bear enthusiast (deffinately NOT reffering to "The Grizzly Man"), will look at a bluff charge in a differant context!! Those with knowledge can't expect others to feel the same way. Let's face it if you or I were challenged by a charging Cape Buffalo, could we react the same as an experianced person, with knowledge would do?

torque, I do agree that those of us with more bear experience can and should let bears get closer so that we do not kill a bear that does not deserve it and your question about African buffalo is a good analogy. However if some highly experienced African PH told me that 99.9% of the buffalo charges in his area would stop before fifteen or twenty yards if you stood still and that shooting one beyond that range would bring down a hefty fine then I for one would listen.

MM

I too have read many books on bear attacks and one thing is very evident, you want extreme penetration with what ever weapon used. With that being said it is an obvious answer, use the biggest, most powerful cartridge that you can handle and use bullets that are of a premium construction(barnes TSX, trophy bonded,etc)

One thing that i have noticed with semi-auto's is that people tend to shoot them a little less acurately because they have back-up shots, ie; they try to get off as many shots as possible with less regard for accuracy.I personally would not use a shot-gun and would consider a 375 ouch and ouch, with 300gr premiums as a START for a stopper.

If i was bumming around in the bush in AK(fishing,camping, hiking) i would probably carry my BLR in .358 win, with 250gr bullets, its short, light, accurate, and can be shot fast.One of the most dramatic kills that Phil has witnessed was by a woman shooting a 350 rem mag.I dont have any experience with bears but i think the best weapon a man can use is his mind.

This is an interesting topic, My two cents worth comes from being a deer hunter going on a once in a lifetime hunt in Alaska. Do your homework on selecting your guide. Get the best you can find and listen to him.
I hunted with a guide that said when I got out of the bush plane to load up, round in the chamber, safty on. All rifles in camp were in the same condition. It was the safest hunting camp I have ever been in. I was the only hunter. Not once was anybody careless with a rifle. I still did not like it a bit, and watched the guide and packer like a hawk. Bears were way down my list of things I thought could go wrong.
On the subject of which rifle, this comes to mind. The rifle you start the fight with is the one you will likely have to finish it with. Why use anything less than what is necessary to finish what you start? Your guide will have his, but he might be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It can happen. Especially if you didn't do your homework in selecting your guide.

I've never kept formal track of bear attacks, but do read about them every year and it seems there are usually about 3 each year, one will be a hiker, jogger or someone walking their dog, one will be a fisherman, and one will be a hunter that sneaks up on a bear while hunting something else. I won't count Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend, as they were asking for it, but there was a predatory attack on a couple near ANWR last summer. There are also the hundreds if not thousands of bear encounters that are nothing more than an, oh, there's a bear.

While there are alot of bears out there, the reality of getting et by a bar is very rare, and often preceded by doing something dumb in the field. I've spent many nights in the woods in nothing more than a fabric tent with my wife and kids, and have no fear that we'll be turned into bear scat.

There are at least 100 times more people killed on the roads I drive to get to the woods than by the bears.

Those that advocate large magazines for follow up shots, or God forbid full autos simply miss the point that you have to make the first shot count. From your postings it's pretty clear you suffer from bearanoia. It also seems you can't believe that other folks, especially those of us who spend time in bear country don't suffer from the same affliction.

Bearanoia=$$$$$$$ for Alaskans.

PaulH

Good post, said very well here is a quote from the Nosler reloading manual #4 by Ken Howell

"It was clear that they'd love to hear of a cartridge with the impact of a 20mm cannon in an accessory rifle the size and weight of a ping-pong ball. They didnt want to listen to my reassurance that their worst "bear problems" would be their fear and imagination.After all, one remotely possible exception was worth getting ready for." every Alaskan has the same mind set so i'll defer to their experiences and say that if a bear is hell bent on destruction nothing is "guaranteed" to work.

This whole topic reminds me of a conversation I had with my guide who was going to Georgia to hunt white tails. He was worried to death about snakes and couldn't understand how anyone could hunt there without snake boots and a pistol loaded with snake shot. I don't think he ever understood that we don't worry about snakes any more than he worries about bears. The snakes are there, they can ruin your day, so leave them alone and be careful if you have to go into a place they might be. It was just something he was not used to.
This Southerner worried about bears the first night in camp, but after that I was too excited, and tired to worry about anything. I saw bears nearly every day, and was fascinated.
I think that it's when you do something stupid that you are going to get in trouble. Mess with a snake and sooner or later you will get bit. Ask the experts, they have all been bitten. When you are going some place different than what you are used to, it pays to listen to the pros. They will tell you what is likely to get you in trouble and how to avoid it.

*** VALUE JUDGEMENTS -- CRITICISM -- AND THE REALITIES OF SURVIVING A BEAR ATTACK BY THE EMPLOYMENT OF A FIREARM ***

A question or series of related questions is asked . The question(s) can be avoided by various techniques :

You can question the motives and values of the questioner , and so divert attention to those tangential subjects .

You can attempt to trivialize the questions , by declaring them , " not important enough to answer " . -- Or you can simply poke fun at them , and hope that they will go away .

You can discredit the asker(s) and atempt to discredit them by attacking their reasons for asking in the firstpace .

Similar ploys are in evidence every time you turn on television ; -- almost always during political debate , and in general , during any argumentation .

But the questions seldom go away , as long as people are genuinely interested in them .

I recently tried to locate a copy of Gary Shelton's " Bear Encounter Survival Guide " . I tried several of the big national booksellers , Barnes and Noble , etc. . -- Every place I tried was sold out , or on backorder . I finally found it for immediate shipment at a Canadian Co. .

Somebody's interested !

Shelton explains that there are several effects responsible for the increase in Bear attacks , in recent years .

Some of these effects are are environment based , and some are because bears have become protected by law .

When any predator , that threatens Man , is totally protected , ( or over-protected ) ; years and generations of selective killing and "training " are defeated .

Bears , for example , were selectively killed , in that any problem Bear , or agressive Bear , was quickly shot . --- Pretty soon , the only ones breeding were the more reclusive and less agressive ones .

Even later in U.S and Canadian history , with the advent of strict hunting seasons and Game laws ; -- many residents , Farmers and Ranchers , " trained " Bears by tapping them in the rump with a load of light bird-shot , when they began prowling close around Human shelter .

Evidently this practice was so common that vast areas of N. American farm and ranch country contained Bears that were , on average very fearful of Man .

Now , because of legislation to protect the bears , -- we're loosing those effects , and Bears are becoming less fearful , and more aggressive . --- Naturally , Bear Attacks are on the rise .

So maybe Bearanoia isn't a patholgy , .

As to the need or reasonableness of efficient " Charging-Bear Stopper " ordnance , --- it's like anything else ; -- the more urgent the need , -- the more specialized and serious the equipment .

USBP's Bill Jordan's famous adage applies to Bears as well ; -- In a Bear-Attack , there ain't no Second Place Winners .

I would suggest that a firearm , specifically for Bear-Defense ( not hunting ) , is an all or nothing proposition . It either works and gives you every chance , -- or it don't .

I do not care if the best of the best , is full-automatic , -- ugly , pretty , popular , politically incorrect , consistent with the "Sportman " image , consistent with the Radical Green Activist's agenda , -- or what .

If it's illegal , I'll take whatever's second best , --- BUT I WANT TO KNOW .

If the best turns out to be a high capacity weapon , -- I could care less if it encourages " Spray and Pray " behavior in some . -- ( Hell , a good old Winny 94 , 30-30 , encourages Buck Fever in some folks ) .

But in life or death struggles , -- I remember the philosophy of , ( I think it was ) Evan Marshall , who said , -- " In a real gunfight , -- there is no such thing as too many rounds without reloading " . -- Amen .

If one is concerned with learning to make the first shot count , -- I'm all for it . -- But think how much more effective a shooter , so trained , becomes when he has lots of rounds . --- If you doubt the efficacy of " Firepower " , -- look to every modern military organization in existence .

And remember that the only guaranteed 900 Lb. Bear stopper , -- is a CNS hit .

Finally , ( as stated many times , above ) -- I fully realize that the chances of being et by a Bruin , -- are VERY slim .

-- But when I prowl around in Heavy Pop. Bear areas , -- fishing , doing Wildlife Photography , hiking , etc. I want to carry the very best ( subject ) firearm .

Think of it as sort of a side-interest , -- or side-hobby .

With the fact of increasing Bear-Attacks , -- maybe other people want to know - ??

One thing for sure , -- if you don't like the subject , -- don't participate , -- it's a free country .


NOSE TO THE TRAIL , ----- MMCOUGAR .

Always keep my guns loaded, when hunting and apply all the safety rules....no finger on the trigger until ready to shoot!

FEARS AND PHOBIAS

Many of the fears and phobias we have are centered around animals (I include insects and reptiles when I use the word "animals") and unfortunately, the fears and phobias we have are not based on good information. All to often they are based on nursery rhymes, childhood stories we read or were told or from other sources that we accept as fact. For example the concerns we have about being bitten by a snake or mauled by a bear, wolf or cougar are greatly exaggerated.

The Wilderness Medicine Society some time ago published an article titled "Deaths resulting from animal attacks in the United States." In the article, which reviewed a ten year period, 1979 – 1990, the number and nature of animal attacks were studied. The authors, Ricky L. Langley, MD, MPH and William E. Morrow, Ph.D. determined that during that period 1882 deaths occurred. The numbers are revealing. Of the total deaths, 527 resulted from hornet, bee and wasp stings – one of the highest categories. Despite the thousands of people that are bitten by snakes each year few die. In this study only 66 out of 1882 died from snake bite – about six per year. Deaths caused by domestic dogs was another high category - 186 deaths. There were so few deaths from wild predators that they didn’t rate a separate listing. There are things we should be concerned about when we venture into the outdoors, dehydration, hypo or hyper thermia, and lightning strike for example. Being eaten by some ravenous animal is not one of them and concerns like these should not keep us from enjoying all that the outdoors has to offer.

Having said this I offer the following:



THE BEAR COMPLAINT

The campers were frightened, a bear had been seen,

Huge, and brown colored, undoubtedly mean.

A black bear, or grizzly, they couldn’t decide,

But a bear in the campground? They wouldn’t abide.



They went to the pay phone, came up with a dime,

And called the Game Warden, who came in good time.

"What should we do?" and "How should we act?"

"To avoid that trip down the intestinal tract?"



Bears hunt with their nose, they are driven by scent,

Put all of your food in the car, get it out of your tent.

Get rid of your garbage, and clean up your camp,

And if you’re still worried, leave on your lamp.



"But what about hiking? Is that safe to try?"

"Another encounter, and we know we’d just die."

Then hike in large groups, and make lots of noise,

And stay all together, the girls and the boys.



Some hikers whistle, and others give yells,

And some like to carry small, silver bells.

Most bears will shun people, or so we have found,

And the jingle of bells, warn the bears you’re around.



They then asked the Warden. what kind of bear,

Had come through their camp, scaring everyone there.

Was it a black bear, as some of them say?

Or was it a grizzly that come through that day?



Tracks, they were searched for, but none could be found,

But a pile of droppings were there on the ground.

One look told the Warden, what he needed to know.

A black bear was the culprit that started this show.



"What clues did you look for, and what did you see?"

"That told you the species of bear this might be?"

The droppings of black bear, look exactly like that,

While the grizzly bear has little bells in its scat

*** FEARS PHOBIAS AND BEARANOIA ***

Yas , Yas , -- Forsooth .

No UNFOUNDED fear is a healthy thing .

Millions of serious Hunters seek out ( especially ) Dangerous Game , because of the challenge ; -- the adrenaline rush that they get from putting their life and limb on the line in the taking of animals who can fight back .

Millions of others , like Football fans , enjoy just WATCHING the activity on Tapes and CD's , -- because it's thrilling , even when experienced vicariously .

Millions of others enjoy participating in and watching ; Boxing , Martial Arts , Bullfighting , Racing Sports , Impact Sports , -- etc. etc. etc. .

It's the JUICE that is in our genes , from thousands of years of evolutionary selection .

It's the DANGER involved .

-- Top status in the ancient tribes was almost always given to the Best Hunter , The strongest Warrior , the best Fighter , the most effective " killer " .

All Military History is predicated on the same values , the same fundamental psychologies .

Death Sports , one and all ; -- incorporate in human nature , like almost no other affect .

Unless you can afford to go to Africa , ( where the Hunting Sports are beginning to look more and more like the managed concessions called Game Farms ) ; -- Bears are one of the only games left in the American Outdoors .

I mean , if there were no element of danger left out there , -- a great spirit would be gone from the land .

And I regret it .

Nope , -- no UNFOUNDED fear is a healthy thing ; --- but , what the hell , Bears are one of the only things we got left . --- Sometimes a Child gets desperate .

If you're too inflexible to take a knee , -- I wonder how you lead a Forty-Mile-A-Hour incoming Bear ??

------- Nose To The Trail ,

--- MMCOUGAR .

Figured I might as well get my feet wet in this thread. I read through the post up to the first few on the top of the second page. If I've missed something, my apologies.

It was pleasing to finally see some Alaskans pointing out that the liklihood of even seeing a bear is so remote that you should consider yourself lucky if you do. Of course places like McNeil are the exception. But the point of the initial post/question is moot there... If you shoot one of those bears, it won't "bear" problems you have.

So, I'll make an effort to actually ANSWER the question asked. I've lived and hunted in Alaska for 47 years so I have my own experience-based opinions. I have good friends, and even some others that I respect, that don't agree with my approach to bear "protection". I don't care, and neither do they. I am not therefore, particularly concerned if there are folks here that don't agree. I'm not changing my view, and I don't particularly expect to change anyone else's view. BUT... the guy did ask a question. Here's my answer:

First, it is my firmly held belief based on first-hand experience that there is not a shoulder-held firearm (goofy "creations" don't count), that can "shock" a coastal brown bear (hereafter CBB, and that's NOT the same animal as a grizzly bear), off it's feet. Of course I've seen CBBs shot and knocked off their feet at impact, but I've NEVER seen one unable to regain it's feet, unless the initial shot was to the CNS. Given that premise, the "process" of killing a CBB requires breaking the major bones of the pectoral or pelvic girdles. When these bones are broken, the bear cannot get to you before 1) you get more bullets into it, or 2) it dies. CBBs have VERY tough bones. NO, they're not magically strong, but they ARE very strong bones. However, I have shot a CBB with 185 grain HPs out of a Ruger 7.5" Redhawk. That bullet broke a clavical going in, trashed the chest cavity, and broke a rib going out. Luckily for me, the bear chose to run 100 yards AWAY from me, as I was only 60 yards from him when I shot. So... in my opinion, you need two things; 1) Bullets that are big around - anything over .40 calber, and 2) as many of them as you can "make happen".

There are other issues though. First an foremost, WHO are you protecting?
1) Are you protecting yourself while recreating (fishing or packing)?
2) Are you protecting yourself and others while recreating?
3) Are you protecting yourself while working - Fish and Game biologist, geologist, etc.
4) Are you protecting others while THEY work?

The answers to the above questions have a bearing on what weapon to use... In my opinion.

Let's start with #4. I've never heard of a private company or ANY state or federal agency actually PAYING to have protection for their field workers. I doubt it will ever happen. However, SHOULD that miracle occur, and I was arming the "protector", they would get a FULLY automatic .30 calber rifle capable of holding at least 30 rounds... and they would have to be able to demonstrate proficiency in its use prior to being sent to the field. The second choice would be the Street Sweeper - a fully automatic 12 gauge shotgun. It would be loaded with slugs ONLY.

Fortunately for those already thinking this post is too long, the same firearm applies to all three other questions... It is a revolver capable of holding 6 rounds and the .44 Mag is PLENTY big enough. I would suggest a Desert Eagle, but they are way too spendy for PERSONAL use JUST for "protection". The DE advantage is not being semi-auto, it is MORE bullets.

SO WHY you ask would I take ONLY a pistol. There's a very simple answer known by anyone that has actually DONE something in the woods.... In order to DO something - be that fish, relieve yourself, or even work, you've GOT to put a long gun down. When you do, the first thing you'll do is walk a step away. Then it's two, pretty soon you're 15 feet from your "protection". And folks, THAT'S NOT protection, I don't care HOW BAAD you think your weapon is. A revolver, (NO five-shots), can be carried on your person ALL THE TIME, and that is an imperative for a "protection" weapon.

All else is... well, not MY choice for sure. I've heard all the great stuff about lever guns, and lever guns with huge, macho bullets. I don't care. If it's not on ya it doesn't make any difference how BAAD it is. And some big, hand cannon won't work ANY better than a .44 Mag when things get "close".

With regard to "bluff" charges... let me put it this way: A bear tries to bluff me, one of us is gonna die.

Paul

So there's an answer to most of what was asked. Just my opinions. I'm not interested in argyin'.

Paul

*** FORTHRIGHT ***

--- GITANO-TOO , --- Thanks for a Straight-Up answer and opinion .

Further , I agree about 95% .

I don't mean to imply that there havn't been several , equally as forthright , answers in this thread ; -- and I appreciate them .

But there has also been a lot of evasiveness and snobbery .

Thanks , again , to all serious answers .

Highest regards , ---------- MMCOUGAR .