Very good velocity test that guy did, and I am surprised by the performance. Thanks for the link, p dog.

The Super Redhawk .454 Casull I own is very comfortable to shoot with full-power handloads. I load the big 335gr Lyman in hardcast with a max load of 296. The recoil is more manageable than a 4" model 29 with factory win USA or American Eagle 240s. The double action trigger is suprisingly good compared to my S&Ws.

Tested the load for penetration into a hard-seasoned slab of Cottonwood years back; 27" penetration from point blank discharge. No deformation of the bullet. Very wide meplat on this bullet.

While the 4" .44 is easier to carry, the SRH is much more capable. Two of my buddies up here have had bear encounters with .45acp 1911s. Neither was hurt, but the bears weren't found either.

The .454 is extremely versatile enabling the Schofield, Colt, & Casull loads with plenty cylinder room for bullet seating. The .480 Ruger is in the same league, but offering 400gr bullets and maybe heavier. 325 and 400s are all I've loaded in the .480.

After the Cottonwood penetration test, I'm a Believer in hardcast boolits.

The Super Redhawk is comfortable to shoot because it is so heavy 3.3125 lbs. I had one in 44 Mag.(Sold it) The Glock 20 SF weighs 1.906875 lbs. Both pistol weights are unloaded.

The G40 fully loaded is as much weight as I like to carry. I imagine it’s catching up to the SRH a tad with a full mag. I’ll have to chrono the Buffalo Bore 220s from the 6.2” factory barrel, recoil isn’t bad at all lots of bark mind you.

This said, I don’t believe a BB 220gr at 1250fps from the 6.2” will be any more effective than jacketed 200gr at ~1200 (what I usually carry, a lot easier to clean up after shooting too), neither works unless perfectly placed, and both work equally when you do that.

No matter what you choose to carry,
It has to be with you when you need it
It needs a certain ability to penetrate
And above all else, YOU have to be able to CORRECTLY & PRECISELY place the bullets !

Everything else is simply details

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
No matter what you choose to carry,
It has to be with you when you need it
It needs a certain ability to penetrate
And above all else, YOU have to be able to CORRECTLY & PRECISELY place the bullets !

Everything else is simply details

+1

Good situational awareness and the proper metal attitude.

Goes along ways in effectively using ones defensive weapons.

Up date to the effectiveness of handguns

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/...-effective-63-cases/

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I know of no handgun that will stop one of these guys with anything other than a CNS hit. And for that a .357 with 180 or 200 gr hard cast or fully jacketed or any other caliber giving 1000fps with a heavy for caliber bullet should work.
And most of the super powerful handguns are difficult to control and getting a second shot off is a lot slower than with moderate calibers. Two quick shots with a 357, where one actually hits the brain, will be more effective than a 480 or 500 that hit somewhere near the shoulder.

Yeah Phil, but that .500S&W makes for one hell of a halibut weight in the off season....

Brett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F71SPRFr_Y
A recurring theme of the posts on this thread is the statement that revolvers are much slower to shoot than semi automatic pistols. This video is very enlightening.

Having actually stopped charging bear with numerous calibers from the 9mm parabellum to the 505 Gibbs, You can all pontificate and argue over revolvers vrs autos, single action vrs double action, handguns vrs shotguns, but As Jake and I have tried pointing out, the two non-negotiable factors in stopping a charging bruin are PLACEMENT & PENETRATION and a shooter who understands this and is both comfortable and competent with any of those weapons will do OK.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Having actually stopped charging bear with numerous calibers from the 9mm parabellum to the 505 Gibbs, You can all pontificate and argue over revolvers vrs autos, single action vrs double action, handguns vrs shotguns, but As Jake and I have tried pointing out, the two non-negotiable factors in stopping a charging bruin are PLACEMENT & PENETRATION and a shooter who understands this and is both comfortable and competent with any of those weapons will do OK.

I agree a 100% having fired many tens of thousands of rounds through both types.

Having carried both types in life threating situations.

I feel very competent with either plate form and never felt under gun carrying a revolver.

As it has been said many time the first rule of a gun fight is have a gun.

Firearms are one the most effective self defense tools out and have been for a long time.

There are very good reasons handguns have developed to the effective fighting tools we have today.

If you don't think your good enough Practice more.

Situational awareness and mind set are also very important.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:

Thank you for sharing this Angus. This photo really does a good job showing the size of the bear....WOW

It looks like I'm about 4 years late to this thread.

I'll start by saying great pics Angus! I especially like the one by the river with the mountain and clouds in the background.

I've been carrying a Ruger 7 1/2" SBH .44 mag or a 1911 .45 acp here in the Montana mountains since the mid '70s. I also carried the Ruger on my (so far) only Alaskan hunt (DIY for caribou out of King Salmon) back in 1980.

I've also killed black bears with each of those pistols with my hard cast lead bullets, one shot each.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a 4" S&W 629. So far I've only shot a box and a half through it, but I got it zeroed at 25 yards and its been fun to shoot.

Many years ago I got a sizer die from RCBS for re-sizing the cylinder length shot shells that I make from .30-40 Krag and .303 British brass. So far I'm 2 for 3 hits on thrown aluminum cans in my back yard, and I'm excited to shoot station high 8 skeet targets with it tomorrow night.

I'm thinking this will be my new mountain carry gun, and I will be carrying it on my Sitka blacktail hunt on Kodiak Is. this fall.

Appreciate the kind words guys and again agree with Phil, the only thing that will work with a handgun is hitting the right place rapidly and the penetration to do it. For me that wasn’t my .475 Linebaugh Model 83, I can’t place accurate shots in a snap shoot and / or one handed with it like my 10mm. If I need to use the handgun I’m counting on an inopportune and awkward moment, such as in devil’s club on a bank with one hand hanging onto a root.

Been fortunate to never have to do more than draw with a handgun on Grizz / Brown, each time the bear took a different direction, we can run into twenty in a day in range during the salmon run. Generally bears just want to do bear things if you stay out of their way.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
The G40 fully loaded is as much weight as I like to carry. I imagine it’s catching up to the SRH a tad with a full mag. I’ll have to chrono the Buffalo Bore 220s from the 6.2” factory barrel, recoil isn’t bad at all lots of bark mind you.
This said, I don’t believe a BB 220gr at 1250fps from the 6.2” will be any more effective than jacketed 200gr at ~1200 (what I usually carry, a lot easier to clean up after shooting too), neither works unless perfectly placed, and both work equally when you do that.

Have to say, I've been having a blast for the past month with my Glock 40 long-slide 10mm.

I got rid of the factory sights and installed a pair of Trijicon HDs - green frt, orange rear. Nice contrast and they hit right to point-of-aim. I was already reloading for an old Delta Elite, using AA-7 and AA-9, so I ordered a box of the coated 200 grain hardcasts and started loading those. Over the years I've fired quite a few Glock models in different calibers, but the Gen4 trigger on this G40 is easily the best of any Glock I've shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison
* * *
For me that wasn’t my .475 Linebaugh Model 83, I can’t place accurate shots in a snap shoot and / or one handed with it like my 10mm.

Obviously a man of experience who gets it. Well said.

That's why the 10mm Glocks make much more sense for an all-around, hard use 'bush pistol.'

All these Big-Bore wheelgun dudes think they're 'John-Wayne of the Boondocks' until it's actually trigger-pulling time on Mr. Griz - and then guess what? They ain't.

quote:

If I need to use the handgun I’m counting on an inopportune and awkward moment, such as in devil’s club on a bank with one hand hanging onto a root.

A fair example that's obviously 'rooted' in reality. Firing a semi-auto 10mm pistol one-handed, and under mucho stress, has a significantly higher probability of yielding an accurate, first-round hit than the 'Wayner's' 5- or 6-shot Mega-Magnum hand cannon ... and that's assuming he's carrying this boat-anchor somewhere that's quickly accessible and didn't toss it into his backpack earlier.

quote:

Been fortunate to never have to do more than draw with a handgun on Grizz / Brown, each time the bear took a different direction, we can run into twenty in a day in range during the salmon run. Generally bears just want to do bear things if you stay out of their way.

Well, with a 15+1 Glock 20, you've certainly got enough 200gn slugs on-tap to really go to town on the local bruin population, or as many as get too aggressive for your liking.

Yep, putting fur & claws down hard on the tundra is what a hot-loaded 10mm does best.

Here we agree AJ and yet we’re a league apart on mini garands.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
The G40 fully loaded is as much weight as I like to carry. I imagine it’s catching up to the SRH a tad with a full mag. I’ll have to chrono the Buffalo Bore 220s from the 6.2” factory barrel, recoil isn’t bad at all lots of bark mind you.
This said, I don’t believe a BB 220gr at 1250fps from the 6.2” will be any more effective than jacketed 200gr at ~1200 (what I usually carry, a lot easier to clean up after shooting too), neither works unless perfectly placed, and both work equally when you do that.

Have to say, I've been having a blast for the past month with my Glock 40 long-slide 10mm.

I got rid of the factory sights and installed a pair of Trijicon HDs - green frt, orange rear. Nice contrast and they hit right to point-of-aim. I was already reloading for an old Delta Elite, using AA-7 and AA-9, so I ordered a box of the coated 200 grain hardcasts and started loading those. Over the years I've fired quite a few Glock models in different calibers, but the Gen4 trigger on this G40 is easily the best of any Glock I've shot.

Agreed, they’re particularly well balanced and sweet shooting pistols.

quote:

but the Gen4 trigger on this G40 is easily the best of any Glock I've shot.

As a police armorer I handled and felt hundreds of Glock triggers.

My Gen 4 model 35 had one of worst triggers I ever dealt with.

After some work it is one of the best Glock triggers I have.

The G40’s trigger has been great, Canadian Glocks are Austrian Glocks not sure if that makes a difference. I put in a 3 1/2# connector and noted no difference, switched back to the factory part as it already is really light for a Glock.

I use the Ghost 3.5 Ultimate Trigger Kit in my Glock 20 and would highly recommend it.

quote:

Canadian Glocks are Austrian Glocks not sure if that makes a difference

Just like every thing made on a production line every once in awhile.

One slips through

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
Here we agree AJ and yet we’re a league apart on mini garands. * * *

On the Mini-Gs, being in the semi-auto unfriendly Canukistan puts you in a different circumstance than the AK guys who might want one. You can't just ship your 'donor' M1 Garand across the international border to Shuff's Parkerizing for the conversion.

For the AK folks, although shipping is pricey, it's easy to get their donor M1 to Shuff's and receive back a 16" Mini in 308, 30-06, or the Bruin-bustin' .35 Whelen.

I've handled and fired several Mini-Gs. These are awesome, truly 'Carbine'-size powerhouses.

Semis are good to go here too, common misconception.

Oddly enough there are more short garand-design (M14 admittedly) rifles in Canada than the US. We’re awash in shortened M305s (Chinese M14s) that were originally made for the US market, but were dumped here when the embargo was put in place stateside. You could buy them for $300US each not long ago, now they’re probably $550-600. You just don’t see them being used for much except burning up Chicom .308 in gravel pits.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
Semis are good to go here too, common misconception.

Oddly enough there are more short garand-design (M14 admittedly) rifles in Canada than the US. We’re awash in shortened M305s (Chinese M14s) that were originally made for the US market, but were dumped here when the embargo was put in place stateside. You could buy them for $300US each not long ago, now they’re probably $550-600.

Wow, that is interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
Semis are good to go here too, common misconception.

Oddly enough there are more short garand-design (M14 admittedly) rifles in Canada than the US. We’re awash in shortened M305s (Chinese M14s) that were originally made for the US market, but were dumped here when the embargo was put in place stateside. You could buy them for $300US each not long ago, now they’re probably $550-600.

Wow, that is interesting.

https://www.firearmsoutletcana...-5.html#.XNPC7RYTHDs

These are very ubiquitous up here, works out to about $500US new, Norinco / Polytech “shorty” M14s. They’re just not at all popular as serious work or guide guns, viewed and treated as a novelty to burn cheap Chinese steel cased .308. Lots of guys including myself build nice LRB M14s at 18.5” barrels, but for target fun not hunting or guiding. That’s a good bolt action or double’s job.

https://www.firearmsoutletcana...-5.html#.XNPC7RYTHDs

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
* * *

* * * Lots of guys including myself build nice LRB M14s at 18.5” barrels, but for target fun not hunting or guiding. That’s a good bolt action or double’s job.

For guiding, traditionally yes. Semi-auto platforms for hunting are quite popular here.

Oddly, if I recall correctly, Canukistan law requires a rifle barrel to be a minimum of 18.5" in length, so a 16" barrel is verboten anyway, regardless of whether it's a semi- or bolt, correct?

The 16.1" Mini-G's appeal is its handiness, being a true 'Carbine-size' semi that can be chambered in any of three cartridge more powerful than the little .30 (U.S.) Carbine round.

The Mini is certainly easier to tote around than a full-size M1, which many people actually do hunt with in the U.S. (at least where hunting with a semi-auto is legal). That, and the Garand action, being clip-fed, avoids some of the screwier laws in certain states here which have bans or restrictions on detachable mag-fed rifles, such as the 7.62 M1A/M14 rifles use.

And with a Mini-G chambered in .35 Whelen, you've essentially got the working-ballistics of what the .350 Rem Mag was supposed to be in the old Remy Model 600, - a short-range, hard-hitting 'bush carbine' for big game, to include bears - except the platform is the battle-proven autoloading Garand action.

You can own any length of barrel in Canada, even a 9” or 12.5” barrelled shotgun- they’re also common here. The 18.5” length you mention is our 16” on semis and just means less paperwork on semis.

Bolt and pumps are unregulated at any length if factory made. Bushpilots and outfitters like me can carry literally any barrel length if you qualify with it in the proficiency shoot, be it a handgun, 14” Benelli M4, or a 12” barrelled Garand if such a thing existed and you qualified with it in the shoot. So the “mini-G” is good to go for professional work. Just nobody is going to use one, too heavy, needlessly complicated.

I vote for an FN FAL para. Quite handy to have when the SHTF. That said the SCAR 17 is even better.

Interesting on the lack of barrel length restriction in Canada. What about suppressors?

We’re hunting bears not Taliban.

No suppressors in Canada for civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
You can own any length of barrel in Canada, even a 9” or 12.5” barrelled shotgun- they’re also common here. The 18.5” length you mention is our 16” on semis and just means less paperwork on semis.

Bolt and pumps are unregulated at any length if factory made. Bushpilots and outfitters like me can carry literally any barrel length if you qualify with it in the proficiency shoot, be it a handgun, 14” Benelli M4, or a 12” barrelled Garand if such a thing existed and you qualified with it in the shoot. So the “mini-G” is good to go for professional work. Just nobody is going to use one, too heavy, needlessly complicated.

Again, that is very interesting! Thanks for the info, Angus.

Not sure what you mean by 'needlessly complicated,' but as far as weight goes, a 16" Mini-G in .35 Whelen - loaded or empty - is lighter than a 16" Springfield SOCOM in 7.62/.308. The latter shorty M1A variant is a popular hog-hunting tool down here.

End this ridiculous thread. It has nothing to do with Alaskan Hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
End this ridiculous thread. It has nothing to do with Alaskan Hunting.

Child, puhleeese ...

The Canukistan province of No. British Columbia, with its indigenous bruin population, is close enough to be relevant, and Mr. Angus has much knowledge and real-world experience to impart.

Pay attention. You might inadvertently learn something useful.

While terse personally think A7Dave has a point, when we get into battle rifles and mini garands in Alaska, or BC bordering Alaska for that matter, things are getting pretty far from reality.

I know guys on Alaska that carry 308 battle rifles for bear defense. Because they can. Not hunting but defense. That’s what this thread is about isn’t it? Handguns are better when the bear is on top of you though....

Why aren’t any here? Stuff like this is what you’ll actually find those working in the bears carrying, not battle rifles. Free countries so do as you see fit, just can’t be marketed as a go to solution. I carry a double rifle often guiding, that’s unconventional here too, I just won’t try and brand it as the go to locally.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I know guys on Alaska that carry 308 battle rifles for bear defense. Because they can. Not hunting but defense. That’s what this thread is about isn’t it? Handguns are better when the bear is on top of you though....

Gunslinger55 nailed it.

The AK folks having their Garands converted by Shuff's to Mini-Gs in .35 Whelen, like the ones he's sold to customers on Kodiak Isl., are using them for both hunting purposes AND bear defense - around the cabin, camp site, while fishing, or whereever.

They just make sense being more compact and lighter than a full-size battle rifle, but just as powerful and equally reliable. Plus, they're plenty accurate at the shorter ranges within which you'd actually stop a charge.

Maybe in Canada they're not popular purely for hunting, but different strokes for different folks ...

Hog Hunting/SOCOM II
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Ar...-Soccom-II/6-499463/

The difference Angus is that you are paid by the Bear on the ground and client still standing metric and AJ is paid by the click on the bait metric.
Different goals, different choices.

I like the S&W 41 mag and the 44 mag...Get larger then recoil recovery can get complicated as they tend to move in ones hand on 6 fast double action shots...For brain shots only it shouldn't make much difference in caliber but in bullet hardness...Ive never shot a Brown Bear with a pistol, but have shot black bear out of trees or on rock ledges over dads dogs..My pick is the 41 magnum. Dad used a 22 magnum or 22 rifle without a problem.

I agree Ray. I shoot the 41 + 44 w/ my linotype cast.

I got a bunch of those too. Just like to be able to decide what is best for a particular situation. Understand you don’t have a choice any more in Canada so that’s a different deal. Don’t tell me a 308 semi auto rifle is not any good for defense....Against anything....

QUOTE]Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
Why aren’t any here? Stuff like this is what you’ll actually find those working in the bears carrying, not battle rifles. Free countries so do as you see fit, just can’t be marketed as a go to solution. I carry a double rifle often guiding, that’s unconventional here too, I just won’t try and brand it as the go to locally.

[/QUOTE]