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Very true the one failure we could document was operator failure. He most likely missed 3 times. In this compilation of incidents, one was a failure. The .357 magnum was fired three times. The shooter was mauled after the first shot and after the second and third shots. It seems likely the shooter missed with all three shots. It is the only bear defense with a pistol, that failed, that we have found I am always open to finding documented attacks that involve handguns and bears. Feel free to post them and I'll see that the author adds them to the data base. | |||
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Get ahold of the AST wildlife enforcement in Soldotna, AK they deal with 15-20 dlp's a year around here. They will have the info you are looking for. Have a good one!!   | |||
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Phil, we Texans sorted out our bear infestations long ago, evidenced by the lack of bears round these parts now days!  One of these days, this old Texan would like to come up your way and help deal with your current bear infestation!  I've helped the Russians with theirs a couple of times but figure it's time to help out my own countrymen for a change! If I can just get rid of this Africa obsession I might find myself in financial position to do so.  | |||
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Tried they well not give that information out citing privacy concerns. | |||
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Todd, would love showing you the beauty of hunting our big bruins in a true wilderness setting one of these days. And While talking with AK Troopers is a good idea, most have limited experience. When my daughter and I turned in the bear hide and skull from the 9mm DLP to F&G , the two troopers we talked to were really interested in what ammo I was using. They said they were not nearly as satisfied with their issued .40 caliber ammo as they were with what they used when they carried .357's and were called upon to dispatch moose that had been injured on the highway. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I had 5 expanded 40 cal 180 gr JHPs that failed to kill a fairly large black bear 400 pound range. That had be hit by a car. The deputy killed it with a single slug to the lungs. It was in early November the bear had 5 to 6 inches of fat. The bullets did not break the spine in the neck. They were found after skinning the bear expanded next to the spine. Most 40 ammo is design to work against human attackers. Bullet choice is a critical against large animals. People commonly make the mistake of using bullets designed for use against two legged predators then 4 legged ones. Not that it well not work in a lot of cases it just that there are better choice for very large critters. | |||
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Regarding compact bear protection for our real North, I can't help but wonder what kind of track record this new breed of 12-gauge "pistol pumps" might achieve. https://www.remington.com/othe...cts/model-870-tac-14 Do any of our bona fide Alaskans have any anecdotes or thoughts? There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I have shot them with full power loads they are a double hand full. If you hit the target they well work like any other shotgun. | |||
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The 12 gauge pistol grip pump shotguns are difficult to shoot. The recoil is massive and hard to control after just one shot. I have one and put the stock back on. That is my around the cabin protection. It stays at the cabin full time, just in case. If I have to respond to something just outside while I'm at camp, this is my go to piece. Away from the cabin I carry a S&W Titanium 44 mag. Very light and comfortable to carry (mostly in a shoulder holster). If I'm hunting then I usually have my 375. If I'm taking people out hunting I'll usually carry my .45 70 with open sights. I've even carried my light weight Savage .458 WM again with open sights. I've never killed a bear with a handgun but given a fighting chance I feel I could. I practice drawing aiming and firing at least once a month during the season. I shoot 44 specials due to the heavy recoil and I believe the pistols usable life expectance is greatly reduced using full load ammo. The thing I have to combat the most is my own complacency. I really have to force myself to stay armed. I've spent countless days in the bush and especially around my remote cabins. It's so easy to take off from camp without gunning up because bear encounters haven't happen very often to me and rarely when I haven't been hunting. A few years ago at a remote recreational lake here in the interior a couple were at their cabin. A cabin they owned and frequented for 30 years. They were on the dock when they spotted a Black Bear coming into their camp. They tried to make it into the cabin as they weren't armed but the husband didn't make it. His wife watched out a window as the bear killed and partially ate her husband. Right outside the cabin. A week later 2 geologists working for an interior mine were attached by Black Bear and one of them was killed and partially eaten. Both these women were extremely experience in the bush but still fell prey I suspect mostly due to compliancy and bear spray. Both of these events were tragedies and both of these were predatory attacks that are extremely rare as opposed to defensive attacks and I'm not certain that outcome would have different if a gun was involved, but I'd certainly like my chance better with my little 44 than without. I will say that once while fishing, my partner, who was downstream a ways and out of sight scared a brown bear that took off running in my direction. In the heavy vegetation I couldn't see it or hear it until the bear was maybe 30 feet away. I immediately pulled my pistol, probably faster than I ever had, but by the time I got it out the bear had just about knocked me over as it ran past. Everything happened so fast that I realized if that bear was focused on me instead of getting away my only chance would have been to kill it while it was on top of me. Not a high probability. In closing I'll just say that no one shoe fits everyone, but any of us that venture into the bush needs to be bear aware and gun up with what they feel comfortable with putting a modern, well constructed bullet into a bear, with some accuracy in very quick order and it sure helps if you can do it multiple times very rapidly. | |||
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Great post! Thanks. All The Best ... | |||
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None worth reporting. These short-barreled 12-gauges are Action-Movie props at best. In the bush, they'll be uncontrollable one-shot, wrist-jammers. Then the Grizz will be having you for lunch. All The Best ... | |||
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And interestingly, more Alaskans are 'up gunning' to the 10mm AUTO than ever before. Here Chuke explains the hard facts for the resident mouth-breathers: Why Alaskans are turning to the 10mm for Bear Protection: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BriBGiDdiVk All The Best ... | |||
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30 handguns in a shop is not making the hype that the 375 ruger or 338 win mag did when they arrived. you should not trust what you read on internet including what you say lol ... | |||
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Why are you asking, by your very post its obvious you have as much pistol knowledge as most of the replys??? Go buy a new pistol, the one you like best... If it were me Id stick to the revolver and I like the double action feature, comes in handy if you get yer thumb bit off!!  I like the 44 magnum but Im a bit recoil shy with pistols since I injured my hand. in my case I'll have to rely on a rifle I suppose...If I was fishing in bear contry I get me a Marlin lever with the 16 inch barrel in 30-30 with iron sights and a sling I guess..Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Up Gunning ?? Most Alaskans have relied on 44 magnums or larger for decades. Who is this Chuke guy ? What are his credentials? I see he mentions talking to "some guy in a gun shop" who knew of some state troopers who supposing investigated my DLP. That sounds like typical gun shop talk. I can tell you for a fact that that is pure BS ! There were no troopers involved ! I dealt directly with AK F&G biologists in King Salmon. And while "Chukes" simulated bear target looked like a second rate Jr. High science fair project, he was attempting something measurable, and did "prove" that the 9mm will shoot through it. But anyone who has actually done much testing knows that as the test medium gets used, the following shots have an easier path and penetrate deeper. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I asked the question four years ago, and I've created a zombie post, it just doesn't want to die! (and here I am helping it along  ) As an FYI, I solved the problem by getting a Glock 10mm and a 629 Mountain Gun in .44, and I still have a secret lust for a .454. I suppose I would look silly carrying all three at once.  One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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That is because hunter's like talking about bears and guns. I have 357 41 44 and 460 magnums if a 454 came along are the right price I would buy it. I most likely load it down to hot 44 levels. At full power like my 460 they are to much of a good thing. | |||
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I just picked up a no lock 629-1 with stag grips so thinking of selling my 629-6 with lock. Brand new in box 4” if anyone needs one White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I outfitted coastal Grizz / Browns before BC’s closure year before last, still of course guide and work in the midst of them flying and outfitting. I carry the Glock 40 (longslide 10mm), as I shoot it better than wheelguns and it’s much, much lighter. When I can or when I followed hit bears it’s a .375 double. Saltproof, it is not. Getting annual internals swaps here out.   | |||
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Did you put it away wet. | |||
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No, it never got put away, just worn. Started to grow hair mid season, fresh water flushes and dousings of oil didn’t help. A coworker’s Smith wheelgun survived better but the hammer, and small components still get orange. Same environment as my double above, on the BC Coast we don’t know what dry is. Heard rumours though. | |||
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That is why I like stainless handguns for hard every day work. They are not perfect but they do hold up better. | |||
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Springfield V16 in 45 Super Stainless shooting 45 Super Buffalo Bore 255g Hardcast at 1100 fps Though stainless isn't impervious either. Nice bear!  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Thanks, agreed on stainless and that’s a client’s bear I guided in 2016. Was a good year for bears here’s another view of him, and another bear from later same year. Nice thing about 1911s is how slim they are on the hip, and nothing looks classier. I shoot Glocks better however the G20 grip feels like it was made for my hand.   | |||
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Very nice bear for sure | |||
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X2 Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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X3! "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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I am a little late on this conversation,but here are my 2 cents.A 454 has nasty recoil.I have found the 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh to be more pleasant to shoot.My 454 was a Freedom Arms with a 7 inch barrel.It could churn up some unbelievable velocities ,but was lite weight and even with the Houge grips was nasty with full house loads.My 475 was in a BFR and I shot a 400 grain cast bullet at about 1100 FPS.It was very controllable and would probably kill anything on this planet.I killed two black bears with this rig one shot apiece and yes I know they are not Brown or Grizzly`s.I have never owned a 10MM anything so have no comment about them.For easy carrying I like my S&W 629 with a 4" barrel.I guess the gun you have with you ,should be one you are comfortable with and shoot well with it.OB | |||
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I had a Freedom Arms 83 .475 Linebaugh, and a S&W .44 before I became a Glock convert. It’s my opinion, which is only that a personal opinion, the only thing that matters beyond the minimum power and penetration to reach the animal’s CNS and vitals, is shot placement. The terminal ballistic effectiveness of my .475 with hard cast would not be appreciably better than my 10mm in a “live shoot” on a bear in my eyes, both only work rapidly with impeccable shot placement. I have a far greater chance of making shot placement like that with my 10mm, more rapidly, than I did with my Freedom Arms 83. My own personal limitations mean I can make two to three hits on a 6” circle with the 10mm by the time I can start aiming the second shot of the .44. Generally that critical first shot is faster and more accurate due to the Glock’s far superior trigger pull too, compared to the Smith’s double action, or cocking to fire the Freedom 83. Others will be better versed in big wheel guns I’m sure, for me the Glock is way, way more effective. | |||
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I shot my Glock 20 10 MM with 220 gr Buffalo Bore cast loads, then my S&W 29 with 300 gr loads, have owned and shot the model 29 since 1980, was quite surprise,d to see how much more control and accuracy the Glock had over the 29. Granted the loads were different, but group size was easily half the size with the Glock and a lot more rounds down range. Much easier to throw the Glock into a backpack with 3 mags and head out the door. Than the 29! kk alaska | |||
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A full house 44 is harder control then a full house 10mm due to the extra velocity. Down load the 44 to 10mm power levels the recoil well be less due to the extra pistol weight. I easily have 100 thousand plus rounds through double action revolvers 99 percent of them double action. I most likely have that many through semi-autos. I been shooting Glock's since 1988. Given the same recoils levels I really can not tell much difference in the time it takes to shoot the first cly full or the same number of shots out of a semi auto. Into the same size target. After the first cly. full there is lag time for sure. Slower reloads for sure. Increased recoil means slower recovery time. Between shots. The slowest recovery time was double action full house 500S@W out of the X frame then full house 454 super red hawk then 315gr full house 44s then full house 357s.s As one works down the recoil level the faster one recovers and puts follow up shots on target. That's why one can mag dump a 22rf auto into a target faster then a 9mm and up the recoil spectrum. Or double action a 22 revolver faster then a 500S@W. Single actions revolvers are the slowest. Auto's carried with out a round in the chamber are even worse. Defensive weapons carried in a pack or places not readily available are even slower. https://www.ammoland.com/2019/...or-handgun-failures/ So pick your defensive tool of choice carry it so it can be access and brought in use as fast as possible. Then practice until it becomes 2nd nature. | |||
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True that. When I used to backpack in the Big Bend area in the early-mid 70's I carried a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 spl.It was the most firepower in the least weight piece at that time.Backpacking across the desert for a week or better,your primary concern is weight.Water was the big killer but without it ,it was a killer for sure.It was illegal to carry a weapon in a National Park but so what?Imagine walking down an arroyo + kicking a piglet by mistake with mama standing by is no more fun that the possible encounter with 2 legged predators. I'd rather take my chance with the law after the fact. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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True, but comparing revolvers to autoloaders generally is always an apples-to-oranges thing unless you factor for barrel length. As someone pointed out already, most big-bore revolvers actually being carried in the woods have barrels of 3" or less, not 6"-8" barrels which are the lengths factory ammo-makers use for assigning velocity & energy values to factory ammo (.44 Magnum, 454 Casull, etc.) It seems to be a hard fact for a lot of wheelgun fans to swallow, but all the short-barreled big-bore revolvers being marketed for 'Alaskan carry,' while certainly being more portable, come with a significant velocity loss firing typical factory magnum loads ... So, in reality, they are anything but "full house" at the muzzle.
The short-barreled magnum revolvers effectively "download" factory ammo from the git-go, at least to the point where you're no better off for muzzle energy than if you'd just started with a 4.6" Glock 20 and heavy "full house" 10mm hardcast loads, rather than a 2.5" magnum revolver. Do the research. The steep velocity drop-off from snubby magnums has only been documented by chronograph tests at least a hundred times over. If you handload, you might be able to gain back some velocity, but then the likely muzzle whip and blast would be so wicked you'd have controllability problems. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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And let’s not ignore the consideration much of a high energy handguns energy, like in my old .475 Linebaugh, is wasted in noise, flash, and recoil that does nothing to stop the bear if it doesn’t hit precisely the right place. I’ve had a couple clients with .45-70 rifles and find it inferior to even just a .270 on bears. So if the warm .45-70 hard cast from a Marlin isn’t a bear lighting bolt (it’s very much the opposite in my experience, an entirely reliable killer but not a notably fast one) I won’t chase a handgun as a bang flop instrument, I’ll just carry the easiest one to hit accurately and fast with. I personally, for my shooting style find a Glock aligns on target faster in the heat of the moment than a big wheelgun. With the high bore axis the revolver, for me and at my level of practice with them, is a few inches off at close range more often on a snap shot than a long slide Glock. Carry what you shoot well, and worry about grains and foot pounds second. Our conservation officers here in BC only carry .40 S&W, and there are more Grizzlies in just our province than the entire lower 48 twenty times over. | |||
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I didn’t have a problem dropping one that came in on us working a moose kill with a body shot from my 475L  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Yep, I took a spring meat black bear years ago with a 147gr 9mm from a carbine. It died efficiently with one shot, killing in a setting with some time available is one thing, stopping them cold in a charge is another. The only way to stop them cold is to put the bullet in the right place, rapidly. For those that can do that with a .475 single action I absolutely solute you, personally I do better with a hot 10mm. This all said a handgun is always a compromise, and I don’t see any as silly- whatever the user has confidence in and shoots well is a welcome but distant second choice to a rifle. | |||
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One can compare ballistics all day long and come up with different answers. Using different parameters. There are short barreled auto's and short barreled revolvers. I guess that if you find it necessary to compare a long barrel handgun to a short barrel handgun to make your point so be it. I own 30 plus handguns from 22 mouse guns to single shot hand rifles. 2 inch to 10 inch revolvers 2 inch to 6 inch auto loaders 10 inch to 16 inch single shots. A similar sized projectile traveling at a similar velocity. With a similar projectile does similar damage no matter what length barrel it is shot out of. The different between a 220gr 10mm and a 240gr 44 mag traveling at 1200fps. I really do not think one could tell any difference. Now plus or minus a 100fps off either one well start seeing a difference in several inches of penetration. Add 60 to a 100 grs of bullet weigh one well start seeing a bit more penetration add a 100 plus feet of velocity to that and one see a lot more penetration. So pick what you want and carry it. As far as I know there has been two saves from bears with a 10mm and about 8 times that with a 44mag. The 44 has been around a lot longer then the 10mm. I think there has been 6 saves with 9mmL. So it is far more important to have good situational awareness and a proper mind set then the caliber or type of pistol one carries. | |||
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1200 fps with a 240 gr bullet from a 4" 44mag is no problem and certainly a reasonable and shootable load. But is 1200 fps with a 220 gr bullet from a 10mm a real feasibility? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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From the velocity tests I have been seeing for the 10mm. Out of the longer barreled Glocks and real close out of the standard length ones. Buffalo bore and Underwood are very capable of 1200 Plus feet per second with a 220 hard cast. Here's one of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31qdRkT7058 | |||
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I agree. You can get 220gn HC 10mm loads right at 1200fps from the G20, and easily to 1250fps out of the longslide (6.2") G40. Nothing magical there ... ... well, ah, unless you've been stuck inside the cabin way too long.
All The Best ... | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Alaska Hunting Forum .44 Magnum vs .454 Casull vs. 10mm Glock 20
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