SwiftShot: You worry too much . All of these rifles are good.

What type of .375 did you order?

Rifles that jam are few and far between...excitement (good or bad) is usually involved in a malfunctioning gun. I personally do not know about this j-lock thing..ovis and Palmer here have had bad experiences with them...one of my brothers shoots with one (a .300 RUM) and my hunting partner here in Alaska uses a .375RUM, and neither of them have had problems with the bolt locking up...so, who knows.

What ever rifle you buy, it should be great...

Never fired anything bigger than my .300 but I gotta jump in. Said .300 is a full custom built on a Remmy action I bought new in 1975. The rifle was built 10 years ago, and the action was hard chromed after trueing. The action has never once failed to operate reliably, before or after customizing. It has been used lots, over 30 head of elk, many deer, varmints, thousands of rounds of practice. Since it was rebuilt it feels like sliding two wet ice cubes together. I had a Sako extractor installed and have extracted a couple of nearly stuck cases due to head separation. (different story)In short it is a great action. I recently ordered an ultra-light .338 from Match Grade Arms for a planned move to Alaska. For this rifle I chose the Win mod 70 classic, for the CRF feature. I'm hoping to get back into guiding, which I did here in CO for a couple of decades, and wanted every possible advantage in a DGR. Match Grade assures me this one will also be as slick as wet ice and as reliable as my old Remmy. The only advantage I can see a CRF might offer would be eliminating the possibility of a double feed situation which I suppose could occur with a PF in a panic situation.

cobrad: Good to hear from you. I think too much is made about the difference in bolt actions..any bolt action will jam, including CFRs (I have had two that jammed)..I have never had a problem with any PF.

But I think the most common and serious problem with a PF is throwing the bolt short..and throwing the bolt short is operator error and has nothing to do with the mechanical effectiveness of the bolt itself.

The guide that was mauled last year, mentioned above, got into trouble not because of double feeding, but because he threw the bolt short (Savage99 got that part wrong too)..and of course the bear was on top of him and took his rifle away from him. The guide's response to this event (reported here on AR) was not to get a different rifle, but to carry a second large (hand) gun. I can't say I disagree with him.

I think thats the option I will take. I will just pack my 44 mag in a crossdraw with some garrett 300 grain rounds. Hell if it dont kill him it set his ass on fire.

Swiftshot, that is an approach I am preparing for also. I bought a 44 last week and plan to use Garretts 330 gr loads, and carry the gun in a shoulder holster.

This post seems to have gotten off topic and into a debate over CRF vs. PF. I've heard the comment that a CRF can be cycled while upside down. Great! now tell me who has managed to maintain control of their gun after being pounded by a Bear, buff or whatever let alone get a shot off upside down.
Ovis, can you elaborate on the failure of the J-lock? I have heard second hand stories on the failure of the lock, but none first hand. The J-lock is reason I won't buy a new Remington. I see it as a potential failure and would certainly replace the bolt shroud were I to get one. I also won't buy a new S&W revolver because of the lock.
RWJ get the M700 for your brother and have Jim West at Wild West Guns put on a good set of sights and replace the J-lock if it has one.
Ralph

Kino,

After 5-6 shots, the rifle wouldn't fire. The j-lock was in the unlocked position and no keys or anything else would make it function. Took it to an authorized Remington repair shop, Wild West Guns, after a lengthy phone conversation with one of the 'smiths. Drove four hours and the guy that runs the shop for Jim West refused to do the work....I told him repeatedly I wanted to pay for the work on the j-lock and he stated, "NO!". There are all kinds of horror stories out there about this guy.....I ordered the bolt shroud and firing pin assembly from Midway and it's a five minute change....the other action and trigger work I wanted WWG to do went to another 'smith. I've still got the failed j-lock shroud and firing pin assembly.....hopefully it will be a collectors item or Christmas tree decoration at some point. A rep at Remington told me on the phone that the j-lock was being phased out...don't know first hand whether it is or not. And Kino, just for the record, my two Mod.700s and my original Mod.600 all function upside down; good for hunting in Australia I suppose.......

Joe

Its funny how people have different experiences, the few times I have had Jams in rifles they have both been in Rem 700's......................a .270 and one I still own a 22/250. Yes it was my fault I short stroked and had the Jams.

Oh the other Jam I had was in my Marlin Lever 45/70...........................not sure what happened there and it has not done it since, have never had an issue with any of my crf CZ's YET.........................not to say it won't happen, but we draw conclusions from our experiences as we journey along and I can't help what I love and thats a crf rifle, those have had the oppisite expericen to my self will be drawn to pf's and thats good, it would be boring if we all liked the same stuff, would not be mucch to debate about on AR

I also have a .375 in Remington 700 Stain/syn and I love. I have used it exclusive on all of my fly out hunts and have shot moose, caribou, muskox and black bear with it. I love it because of the open sights and the Leupold QD mounts on it. It's relatively light and the recoil is managable. I would highly recommend this gun.

What follows is from the african hunter website and (http://www.african-hunter.com) a PH's observations on 700s in use during testing procedures for obtaining a PH license:

The 700 may be a very fine hunting rifle. I don’t know because I’ve never used one, but I do know that it is a piss poor dangerous game rifle especially in .416 Rem calibre. Apart from the odd inexplicable misfire, a broken extractor cost us an elephant wounded and lost at Rifa. This is not the first year that I’ve seen a broken extractor on a Remington 700 in .416 either. In addition they are just about the hardest rifle to refill the magazine in a hurry. My memories this year of students and candidates using them is that of youngsters frantically trying to thrust cartridges into the mag, only to have a double feed, the rounds pop straight back out or many other problems. A two round reload took on average, twice as long with the Model 700's as it did with just about any other make of rifle. The difference between the Remington and the Weatherby is that the latter can be downloaded a little so as to operate flawlessly and the safety fixed, whilst I do not know that anything can be done with the Remingtons except to re-barrel them to a plains game cartridge and leave them at home when out after the dangerous stuff. To be fair though, all of the extraction problems seem to be confined to rifles in .416 and .375. and they seem reasonably reliable in .458 provided you are prepared to tolerate the awkwardness of the reload. I am not. A good single shot or even a Weatherby is a better choice.

This is from people who rely on their rifles for a living. I think I'd listen to him. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
What follows is from the african hunter website and (http://www.african-hunter.com) a PH's observations on 700s in use during testing procedures for obtaining a PH license:

The 700 may be a very fine hunting rifle. I don’t know because I’ve never used one, but I do know that it is a piss poor dangerous game rifle especially in .416 Rem calibre. Apart from the odd inexplicable misfire, a broken extractor cost us an elephant wounded and lost at Rifa. This is not the first year that I’ve seen a broken extractor on a Remington 700 in .416 either. In addition they are just about the hardest rifle to refill the magazine in a hurry. My memories this year of students and candidates using them is that of youngsters frantically trying to thrust cartridges into the mag, only to have a double feed, the rounds pop straight back out or many other problems. A two round reload took on average, twice as long with the Model 700's as it did with just about any other make of rifle. The difference between the Remington and the Weatherby is that the latter can be downloaded a little so as to operate flawlessly and the safety fixed, whilst I do not know that anything can be done with the Remingtons except to re-barrel them to a plains game cartridge and leave them at home when out after the dangerous stuff. To be fair though, all of the extraction problems seem to be confined to rifles in .416 and .375. and they seem reasonably reliable in .458 provided you are prepared to tolerate the awkwardness of the reload. I am not. A good single shot or even a Weatherby is a better choice.

This is from people who rely on their rifles for a living. I think I'd listen to him. jorge

Jorge I to find them 700's) more difficult to load I actually wondered wether it just the caliber of my rem 700 which is a vssf 22/250 and the fiddly nature of the little cartridges comapared to dropping home a couple of .416 Rigby rounds in my cz 550 safari

jorge: Is this based on informaton from people with experience? When he says

"I don’t know because I’ve never used one,"

I think that sounds like he has no experience regarding the subject matter.

Very few people have hunted cape buffalo and very few people have hunted Alaska brown bear (and actually killed one)...given the number of hunters out there..I would say that a very few number of hunters have the personal experinece to give opinions on hunting either of these animals.

I would not believe some guy from Zimbabwe or South Africa any more than I would believe some guy from Bethal or Kotzebue when it came to hunting.

Anyone who has not hunted truely large game with a M700 should stop what they are doing and go do that..

We'll agree to disagree but You should go and read the whole article. The reason he's never used one id because, as a Professional PH instructor, he HAS seen so many of them fail. THe bottom line is that you have to ask yourself as to WHY virtually no PH uses them and therein lies the answer. jorge

rwj.

Maybe not quite what you were asking - but based on experience I can thoroughly recommend a look at the stainless synth Sako 75.

Spent a morning firing various safari calibres in various rifles.

Here's the kicker.

The Sako made a .375HH feel like a 30'06 in the shoulder. So much so that several folks commented that it was considerably more civilized than a Rem synth firing a 300wm! Go figure!

If I was on the look out for a rifle in .375 or up - this would be on my list of 'have to have a look at'!

They had a bad batch of barrels recently - but that identified and all recalled (check numbers if looking second hand tho!) - buying one now is as safe as its possible to imagine.

My two cents - fwiw!

Rgds Ian

jorge: That sounds fair to me...If African PHs do not use Remingtons I suppose there is a reason for that...But I would think we would hear about failing Remingtons more often if it were a common event. I will read the article you cite. I do read often enough about various CRF rifles having problems in Africa at bad times...that is a common-enough event and is widely reported.

IanF: Thank you for the information. I will look at the Sako 75...

Jorge,

I'm sure that it was a great comfort to you to see your beloved Weatherbys rated right up there with the single shots. I'm so distraught over finding out my Rems are not acceptable that I may just have to seek counseling.

Joe

Ovis: A man has to know the limitations and advantages of his weaponry, for example, I wouldn't dream of going "beek to beak" into a dogfight with an F-14 and my driving my lowly Viking. I Do love my Weatherbys as you say, but like the airplanes I know it's limits and that is why in 9 days, my Weapon of choice is a CRF 416 Rigby, finely tuned by Mark Penrod when I go after buffalo. Even so, I'd take a Weatherby over a 700 any day, the extractor is quite a bit more robust, and the bolt handles don't fall off. jorge

How many people (first hand) have had feeding problems with a M700 in any caliber?
I have been shooting M700's for 20+ years and have never had a single problem.
I might add that I have shot several thousand rounds, over 6000 in a 30-06 alone. This includes target shooting, competitive shooting from field ppositions, rapid fire, and hunting.

Just curious.

Regards,

JD338

Joe: I am with you...we can start up a self-help organization for people who own M700s and other PF rifles . We can start group counseling..and charge $5 for membership (we would become rich)...all of these people out there who own M700s (or other PFs) that have never failed and not knowing why. They ask "Why hasn't my PF failed?" What is wrong with my rifle? The mental anguish is staggering.

jorge: That guy didn't like any American made rifles, and there is something wrong with that...his evaluation of Weatherby rifles is full of beans. My weapon of choice is a Weatherby in any caliber.

With few exceptions I personally would not buy a foreign made rifle (I would buy a Dumoulin if I could afford it)...but I think most rifles work well enough under normal circumstances and all rifles (and their shooters) can and will malfunction under bad circumstances. Most malfunctions, I am willing to bet, occur with CRF rifles.

I'm with you on the foreign made bolts. The best custom rifles are made right here by gents like D'Arcy Echols, and his choice is a Model 70 action. And yes all rifles are subject to malfunction, but the CRFs are less prone to failure, hence, the overwhelming majority of Professional Hunters prefer them over PFs. That's not ancectdotal, but factual. jorge

jorge: That is a reasoned response..and I am hoping you knock'm dead on your trip...I am not in the know on expert gun-makers...who is Mark Penrod? Is he a D'Arcy Echols gunsmith?

You must have your adrinaline levels up there with the clouds with your up-coming buffalo hunt! I hope you smack'em..my adrinaline levels seem to increase after a successful hunt..and I hope yours do too.

Jorge,

I respect your choices and I'd be proud of the Penrod rifle as he does exceptional work.....the students participating in that class, I would think to the man, would not have been able to afford such a rifle then and, as few of them that will ever be successful in the changing world that is Africa, never will have one. Those students scraped up anything they could to get through the class and that's a well known fact.....few if any silver spoons in that group. PHs are not the only folks in the world with lots of bush experience.....a good friend that has 30 years of experience as a RG w/brown bears uses a push feed, another RG I know will not. .......another uses nothing but a 12ga., no rifles and I'll put their bush experience up there with the gent that wrote the article. Personal choices are just that. My first rifle in 1962 was a Remington. I've been bear hunting in a lot of places for over thirty years and , with the exception of the bear that I've taken with recurve, longbow, compound and muzzleloader and one w/a Parker Bros. 12ga., all have been taken w/Remington rifles....my newest and, soon to be used in camp, is an original Mod600 in .350RM. I own other brands but Remington is my choice. Jorge, I would also like to add a thank you for your service to our country.

Robert,

Looks like you, I, and others of our ilk will have to meet at the Moose's Tooth some time to drown our lack of self-esteem in their great food and libation of choice.......this is almost more than my ego can bear.

Joe

Joe: All this PF talk has crushed my self-esteem..I guess it will have to settle for the Moose's Tooth. I'm up for it.

rwj,

By reading the African and Big bore forum I know you have seen that CRF rifles are the accepted type. That said, I have quite a few of each (700s, M70s, RSMs, TRG-Ss) and will say that all action styles may need some tuning to be 100%. My 338 Lapua won't feed 250gr partitions after they get beat up. My RSM Rigby won't feed Northforks 100%, and my RSM 458 Lott can hang up on flat points. All this should be corrected by proper massaging by a competent smith.

My point is that any rifle, especially a DG rifle needs to be shot a lot, and trouble spots noted and fixed. Although I believe a DG rifle is best off with CRF, I wouldn't be put off hunting with a squared away PF. All rifles (production rifles?) need some fine tuning IMHO. I'll leave the "I wouldn't hunt with @#$" for others.

John

Rwj, ovis, et al: these are all great responses that I think we can all agree make for some good data points for all. Those were some very candid and valid observations on the Ruger, a great rifle to be sure, but one that needs some tuning in order to make it more reliable, hence that is why a guy like Echols commands the prices he does for his rifles, but the payoff is 100% reliability and theya re worth every penny. My preference is definetly CRF when it comes to hunting stuff that bites back, but that does not mean I would not hunt them with a reliable push feed rifle and there's where my issues with Remingtons in particular come in, but like you guys say, it's a matter of choice based on waht you guys experienced. Happy Memorial Day to all, take the time todayto remember the lads out there on the "parapets of freedom" that keep us all safe. jorge

Hey guys, I've heard of a lot of folks that really like Remingtons getting some type of beefier extractor installed. Thought they were made by Sako. That would be a start for me. If I were confident in the rifle, I'd utilize a Remington but for DG would probably have one of these heavy duty extractors installed. I like the CRF's though for DG myself. I have read, in a couple of articles actually, that PF's are a bit more accurate.
choke

JD338: I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with first hand experience with feeding problems with the M700. PC above said that he short stroked his M700 (threw the bolt short I assume) that resulted in a jammed rifle...to me that does not make since...throwing the bolt short results in a bolt closed on an empty chamber, not a jammed action, so I do not know what he is talking about there. Either way, short stroking or throwing the bolt short is operator error and can occur with anyone who does not know how to operate a bolt action rifle with a magazine (PF or CRF). No one here has described first-hand feeding problems with M700s...ovis and Palmer report problems with the j-lock...but that is something different.

JKS: The description of your experiences is very reasoned and I agree with what you say 100%. The best method to find out how your rifle works is to shoot it a lot. My .378 Wby, which I have owned for years now and have shot a lot is the most reliable gun I have ever used when it comes to loading in field conditions, accuracy in the field, and when its comes to working the action. I have beat the crap out of this rifle here in Alaska..I once fell throught ice on a shallow creek...the rifle hit the creek bottom before I did and broke my fall and this rifle has been dropped hard on a boat deck, and suffered many other insults, and it has always worked. But it hates Barnes X bullets, unless I shoot very little ones...while this gun has a huge action and the cartridges themselves are fat and long, the extra volume of heavy Barnes bullets I reload make the cartidges too long to comfortably load the magazine and feed throught the action (I can have either a bullet or gun powder but not both)..One has never jammed the action but I prefer to shoot SAF or NP because they feed better. Finding what rifles like and what works and what doesn't takes a lot of shooting, just as you say.

RWJ,

In regards to the Jam I was refferring to in my 700, I am assuming I short stroked (I also know it was my stuff up) but I ended up with a round in the chamber and another getting pushed out of the mag some how, obviously that one could not be chambered as there was already a round in there. I was excited and I mucked up, heap of targets on the move very close in. The Jam with the marlin I am blowed if I Know how that happened, but it has not happened since.

PC: It is good to here from you. The few times that I have had bolt action rifles jam on me was when I was tying to shoot at moving game fast, and that was many years ago..I did not analyze the reason of the jam..I just looked at the rifle in my hands, pulled a bullet out of the action and reloaded..it sounds similar to what you describe...I was watching one of my brothers from 200 meters 'throw the bolt short' on a caribou hunt (he explained what happended to us later that day)...he shot the caribou, worked the action far enough to eject the spent round, then close the bolt without picking up the next bullet in the magazine...he pulled the trigger, nothing happended..he worked the bolt again bringing it all the way back, and pushed home into the breech the next round in the magazine. That is the malfunction I was referring to. I think most of these malfunctions occur very rarely.

RWS,

Thanks for the reply. I understand the concept of CF but was curious if there were first hand problems with the PF of the M700's.
I'm a Remington guy (although I am getting turned off because of J Locks, discontinuing decent offerings, etc).
Africa is in my future but first I must get my girls through high school and college.

Regards,

JD338

Mark Young: When you mentioned 'short stroking' were you referring to not picking up the next bullet in the magazine or the situation that PC described above? When I say 'throwing the bolt short' I am referring to ejecting the spent round but not pulling the bolt back far enought to pick up the next round in the magazine.

I also found that 700's in smaller cals like the 22/250 seem fiddly to load, I have a 6.5-20x40 Vari X111 leupold in really low weavers and that probably does not help, I assume a .375 700 would be much less fiddly or precise to load.

It was years since I had my 700 in .270, that was an ADL and I forget what that was liek to load, at that stage of my life I did not even know about PF or CRF at that point.

RWJ.

Noted that you personally would not buy a non US manufactured rifle. This link may provide some more information for friend's consideration.

http://www.sako.fi/sako75_main.html

rgds Ian

IanF: I am willing to admit that I overstated my case...I was responding to the review of American made rifles in the article jorge cited... .

While I do not own a Sako, I certainly would buy one and I may do that. There are a couple of shops here in Anchorage that have Sakos on the rack to look at, and I have looked at them. They are a good looking rifle and I have a friend that owns one in the stainless/synthetic model (I think in .308), and he likes it. The website you reference is great...What I would like is one of these rifles in 9.3x62 or 9.3x66.

Regards

Mmmmm - nice choice. I suppose that I would have to stick with the venerable .375hh. Mainly ammo availability/choice issue. The performance is too close to call. Doubt that either game or hunter would notice the difference at time of firing!

Problem is - one day DG in Africa may well beckon. Many countries have the .375 as a minimum. Imagine feeling you have to leave your pet at home!

BTW - I am a little biased in this matter. My .375 takes regular outings and never lets me down - if I point it in the right direction! Used it in Africa, Italy, Canada and Norway as well as here in the UK on small stuff to keep familiar with her. In fact this fellow fell to her the night before last.



Out in Alberta last year after Bison/Moose. Had it strapped lengthways down the side of my quad. Barrel facing back and protruding to the rear of the rack. Drove the bike up a tree - bailed out and looked up to find the rifle stopping the quad from rolling over backwards on top of me - checked zero, fearing the worst - only to find it was fully 1" low at 100yds.

Now had that been a 9.3.................

rgds Ian

This is one of the best threads I've ever read.
Staying on TOPIC...I'm currently finishing my 700/.375 RUM project, a rifle put toghether with ALASKA in mind for a future hunt.
(...CRF/Africa thread hi-jackers - go HOME to BIG BORE! )
I'm pleased to find the J-Lock information here and will look through my catalogs for the parts.
I want to mention that I was shooting a TAURUS RAGING BULL 6 1/2" bbl. matte stainless ported in .480 Ruger and IT'S lock turned itself on and thus jammed the gun!
I WILL have the J-Lock replaced on my new .375 ULTRA, for sure.

I did discuss having the 8-40 screws done to the rifle while at Rick Freudenberg's shop yesterday.
( since namedropping of Gunsmiths is allowed here: http://www.freudscustomrifles.com ).
Rick also told me my choice of the Leupold Vari-X III / 4.5-14x40 scope would be just fine, and that's when we decided on the 8-40 installation work.

I've had the R3 ( Sims Vibration Laborotories ) pad installed on my 1989 "AS" ( Aralon Synthetic ) stock that my 1st Remington 700 BDL came in - a 7mm Rem.Mag.
This stock's original pad was pressed, not screwed in. It turned out to be a bit difficult, but it's done.
I also had to rework the triggerguard area a bit, but that's all done, too.
So, the rifle is awaiting a bit of detail work and the work Rick will do, then it's time to fire her up for the 1st time!

Got me wondering if a MUZZLE BRAKE by the Anwser Products might be in order here. I talked to the owner there shortly after getting the rifle. He chewed my ear for about 1/2 an hour. It was fun listening to him as his voice and demeanor were much like listening to my late Father! I think his name is George, but I can't remember for sure.

Anyway, 700/.375 sounds like a helluva good choice for Alaska!

Here's the stock I mentioned, with the Bell&Carlson Premier Thumbhole Sporter stock it went into. The B&C stock is currently hanging in the garage drying it's new Krylon Camo Olive Drab paintjob...


Other side of the 'AS' stock with a WAY TOO LONG 6" sunshade...
I've got an assortment of these sunshades to play with:


The 700/7mm w/Leupold Tactical Mil-Dot scope, hence the 'Tactical Hunter'.
If you intend to use this stock for comfort ( which I did due to BusDriver's Arthritis) , it should be noted that the bigger magnums need to have B&C or competent gunsmith install a recoil lug. The 7mm is OK, no problems:


How the B&C stock looks when shouldered:

BM i cant see the pictures......link must be not right ??

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
BM i cant see the pictures......link must be not right ??

I think 'Hunt101' has been down for a while.
Darn it.

quote:

Originally posted by rwj:
I have been using Remington Model 700s since 1974, when I was 21, and I have never had one jam on me...for the past 15 years, since I could afford it, I have used Weatherbys..the best made rifle in the world.
.