The following is an email I was forwarded from an SAA Captain. I have removed his name to prevent possible recriminations.

The FAA is considering, as you will see, revoking SAA's U.S. operating rights, with apparent good reason. What was a once great airline, and I used to fly contract cargo for them, so I know, has now deteriorated into a risky, politically correct potentially hazardous operation, if this letter is any small indication of what has happened.

South African Airline Pilots





From an e mail friend about the pilot situation in South Africa. The 'RV' he speaks of is his single engine private plane he flies on days off.
XXXX is a senior Capt for South African Airways.

Subject: RE: Pilot Shortage

Hi Mxxx - It is very interesting that the rest of the world has a critical shortage and we here in South Africa have cut back to the wick. A short time back we were threatened with the furloughing of 225 pilots after an American audit team (selcourt) was hired by our now black management. Affirmative action, or black empowerment as they now call it, has taken total control of the airline and quite honestly messed it up.

Black empowerment operates on the demographics of the country, basically a quota system i.e. if there are 80 million blacks in the country and only 5 million whites then that's how the ratios must exist in each and every business. Overnight management was replaced by blacks who had no idea which end of the aircraft was the front. The cabin crew's only requirement is that they are black and some of them have literally just come out of the bush. (You can take them out the bush but can't take the bush out of them).

Quotes from managers ranged from 'why do you need three drivers for an aircraft' to 'why do they need so much time for conversions? I can drive any car, why they not any plane' to 'if they leave we can activate some of the clerical staff.'

The frightening thing is these guys have no idea how stupid they are!

They would love to have all black pilots if they could (can't find any). We have a few at the moment who have given us endless problems like trying to fly into mountains, etc.

At one stage there was a moratorium on pilot hire. The government insisted on no pilot hires unless they were black. We had scraped every barrel and they were just not available. The airline got itself into a major pickle with new planes and nobody to fly them, so they fixed that by sub leasing the planes to an Indian company.

It doesn't end there. Before we hire qualified keen and enthusiastic males we must first give female pilots preference. We did this only to have half of them leave to get married or go chase boyfriends around the world.

The failure rate of both blacks and females has been high and cost the company a fortune. Luckily no black female has made it in yet as those create chaos on our roads with zero driving skills.

As soon as the other major carriers heard of our plight we had road shows coming out our ears from foreign carriers and they've taken a bunch of our good guys. Air New Zealand took 67 ground technicians in one fell swoop.

The pilots have gone to various outfits. We shut down the Boeing 747 400 fleet over night, so now I'm converting them all to Airbus, poor fellows.

Airbus is a great plane to have when you've got 75 meters visibility, and the auto flight system is beyond reproach, however the 600 series is busy shaking itself to death. In turbulence it suffers from lateral oscillation due its length, the pivot point about 5 meters ahead of the leading edge.

It won't let you sleep in the bunk as your stomach keeps smacking your bladder and you're up every 5 minutes for a pee, and your ears take a lateral hammering on the pillow as well.

They just found the primary flight control computers about ready to fall through their trays, having worn them paper thin, the bolt holes too suffering severe elongation. Maybe we'll revert to Boeing again someday!

I just bought a new house as members of the community were starting to impinge on the suburb and it was starting to become dangerous and untidy so at my age now am a little stuck here right now, I must admit I'm not terribly keen on becoming a nomadic commuter. I just love hopping in my RV when ever I can for solace and enjoyment.
There still is a lot to be said for this country, still a lot of freedom, and I still intend to fly all around it in the RV. Unfortunately my boys have no interest in aviation.

The FAA paid a visit recently to our CAA that has had its management swamped by previously disadvantaged people. They were to do an audit to ensure airlines were being monitored and safe to operate within the confines of the USA.

To their shock and horror they found the level of competence to which they were accustomed had dropped to dangerous levels and that the people employed were totally incompetent.

The FAA has given them 3 months to get sorted out and then they'll be back to decide whether we lose our rights to operate into the USA and Europe amongst 87 other African airlines that have been banned from the above.

In a rash move (one week) our director flight ops (white) has been moved out of the airline and into the CAA as head (they fired the "incumbent"). He has now to take up two positions - one as head of CAA and the other as aviation commissioner (government position, they booted the "incumbent" there too). He is now obviously appointed with the task of ensuring we don't lose our rights. Good luck to him, one day I'll ask him what he was offered or ordered.

By now you've probably heard of the surprise reshuffle of the ANC government and ZUMA is now president of the party. His only claim to fame is that he was a terrorist and he still does his Zulu war dance and chants his rebellious songs at public addresses ('bring me back my machine gun' is his favorite). He has spent the last 4 years in and out of court for bribery, fraud and corruption as well as the rape of an AIDS infected tart.

He has NO formal education and only learned to read and write while in prison for terrorist activities.

Besides all that I don't give a sh-- as long as I'm paid and the planes hold together and I get fly my RV. Just thought I'd spread the word. Regards, and have a nice day.

Wow, that is frightening. I have only flow SAA internally (Cape Town to PE and JoBurg to Harare) without any problems/concerns. But this is not good. Hopefully it will not take a crash for them to sort this out. Looks like another boom for the air charter business...as if they were not already expensive enough!

Aaaaaaaaaaaa can you say YIKES!!

I have become an advocate of Delta since my trip a year ago on SAA that was totally miserable --- never again over the big water on SAA if there is an alternative short of rowing.

Still better then AirZim

After a few mass casualty disasters, they will be forced to go back to safer ways.

Sounds like the US Navy...jorge

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
After a few mass casualty disasters, they will be forced to go back to safer ways.

wanna bet? black empowerment has the very real likelihood of killing the business world in Africa as a result of quotas in all aspects of major commerce

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Still better then AirZim

Used to commute up to Harare from Joburg on Air Zim. They had white pilots in those days. Believe it or not, some of the best food I ever ate in 39 years of flying was on that leg. They barely had time to serve the meal, but it was absolutely delicious. That was years ago, though.

I quickly learned SAA was down the tubes when I rode it over in '05. What that Capt. says about the flight attendants is absolutely true. In all my years of flying, I've never seen a surlier bunch of incompetent, noncommunicative flight attendnts. With a couple of exceptions.

I used to commute to Joburg from Miami when they flew that route using a 747-200. Those were good trips, before black empowerment began destroying the company. The A340-600 is a piece of junk, compared to the incredibly well designed 747. There's no comparison.

Just saw this. I hope each and every AR member who has flown with them or is remotely thinking about it reads this.

I cannot tell if you are talking about Air Kazakhstan or Delta....

I remember one flight attendant who was obviously a black empowerment hire.

I was in Biz Class and she came down the aisle saying 'chicken or vegtable sandwich". when she came to me she just said 'do you want a vegtable sandwich"? I said I would prefer chicken. She said they are all gone. My response- well, I think for the price I paid for a business class ticket, you can find me a chicken sandwich.

She loudly stated that I was violating her civil rights and that she would not serve me!

She then pushed to cart off and disappeared. I tracked down the steward, related what happened, he responded with a tray of 3 chicken sandwiches for me and an apology, saying that some of their people need better training..

On another trip in economy with my son, I was awoken by a big black male flight attendant poking my shoulder with an empty water bottle. When I wake up and asked what he was doing, he said "don't you want to wake up for lunch"? Nice thought but sort of a rude way to wake someone up...

quote:

I remember one flight attendant who was obviously a black empowerment hire.

So do I. I had taken two Ambiens on the leg out of the Cape Verdes to try to get some sleep in that cattle car. I was snoozing happily, when I was rudely awakened by a cold liquid running down the back of my neck. This black-empowerment type had rammed his cart into the base of my seat and dumped a full cup of orange juice down my collar. I managed to get a clean shirt out of my carry-on, but needless to say, I got no sleep on that hellish leg. I'll never fly SAA again.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I cannot tell if you are talking about Air Kazakhstan or Delta....

Neither.

I used to brag on how efficient and hospitable SAA was. I preferred them to any airline I flew. Now.......?

With the thought of Zuma taking over I fear collapse of the infrastructure will be accelerated to light speed. Land seizures, massive nationalization of businesses, and all of the other "Uhuru" corruption that we have witnessed over the past 50 years in AFRICA. CRAP!

Not to discount the value of the preceding comments, but I'm pretty ignorant about airline practices and would apppreciate any info the pilots here might offer.

I'm not sure about what you are asking, but regarding US landing rights, foreign carriers have to meet minimum safety standards set by the FAA. Those that don't are not allowed to enter US airspace and land. Most African airlines and others, some from Latin Ameica and Asia, are banned.

SAA, according to the letter, has been given 90 days to demonstrate minimum safety standards, because they have fallen below them due to unqualified blacks having been appointed to managerial positions for which they are not in the least qualified.

It's the same old story, if you know anything about African history. Zimbabwe is a classic example where economic failure is being brought on by incompetency.

South Africa, the once bright star on the African continent, is appearing to be slowly heading down the road to great difficulty when a black government begins to "empower" blacks in jobs and positions where the only requirements for being given that position are that they are in good stead with the ruling party and are black. Managerial qualifications be damned.

I wouldn't get on SAA on a bet, and I have spent my life flying and riding airplanes.

The down side of that coin is that, if SAA loses its certification, then the next step is for the South African government to cancel American carriers landing rights in retribution. Which is obviously cutting one's nose off to spite one's face, but this is how it commonly works, or doesn't work, in Africa.

Sooooo....please advise me...I have paid for SAA tickets from/to Orlando-Joberg next May....am I trapped???
Alex

I flew coach on SAA Dulles-Joberg-Windhoek and back this last September and everything was fine: flights on time, crew polite, bathrooms clean, food good (for an airline!) drinks plentiful, and the seat as comfortable as one can expect in coach on almost any airline (admittedly, it is easier for me as I'm 5'7" and 150lbs.) It was an Airbus.
I'm not saying that all flights or crews are like the two I had. Just saying that mine were perfectly acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by conifer:
Sooooo....please advise me...I have paid for SAA tickets from/to Orlando-Joberg next May....am I trapped???
Alex

I don't know. We'll have to wait and see if SAA can maintain their certification. If they lose landing rights, then you will have a problem. I have no idea if there would be a refund or not, depending on what policy they come up with.

All I know is what I read in the letter. Maybe all the outcries have forced SAA to improve their cabin service. But cabin service is the last thing I'd be thinking about when flying on any African carrier. As a pilot with 39 years in the business, what concerns me is maintenance and if it is being properly done, crew training and if anyone is being seated in the cockpit because of race over qualifications, and finally, in case of an emergency, are the cabin attendants properly qualified to operate the doors and slides and safely evacuate the cabin.

What most air travelers pay little attention to, and I've watched countless times as you see the average Joe Traveler sit there reading a newspaper while the cabin attendants are proceeding with the safety briefing, are the escape routes from that bucket you're riding in.

Emergency training of cabin attendants saves lives, or loses them as the case may be. What I saw on my last SAA flight in '05 gave me the chills. I wouldn't have trusted those clowns to lead me away from a campfire, much less out of the interior of a burning aircraft while panic is breaking out among all the idiots who ignored the safety briefing and now will likely die because they did.

Has anyone seen this rumored FAA letter? I am not suggesting that one does not exist but people with axes to grind can say or allege anything they want. The reference to the FAA letter is in an email that supposedly came, via a forward from someone else, from an SAA pilot. Again, I am not suggesting that the email or the reference to the FAA letter are false, but I am cautious enough to at least take with a grain of salt what I read on the internet with some substantiation.

jetdrvr,
Thanks for the added info. Is there an international standard for pilot qualification? If so, how is it administered? Are foreign carriers on their honor to comply, or is there some enforcement?

Incidentally, I've flown SAA several times since mid-nineties. At first the cabin crews were all white. Then black Africans were added, and they were pretty bad. It seems to me that the cabin crews have improved a little in the last 2-3 years.

I received the copy of the letter from a British maintenance supervisor that I worked with all over the world for twelve years. His credibility is unquestionable to me. That is why I posted it. He has worldwide contacts in aviation, as do I, and I have no doubt of the letter's authenticity. Otherwise, I would not have posted it.

I deleted a good bit of information from the letter to protect the writer. The author writes expertly concerning the topics.

I know this: if I were an SAA captain who has been around a while and rememeber SAA when it was a sterling operation and had to sit by and watch the deterioration, I would very likely have an axe to grind. I'm pissed off at what has happened because of the facts surrounding the events.

I used to fly contract cargo into and out of Joburg for the old SAA in a 747-200, with stops in Capetown, Harare, Lagos, sometimes Kano, Vitoria, Spain, Amsterdam, and New York. The decision to exchange the 747-400 for the cheaply constructed A340 was apparently a political one, from all reports. There's no question that the 747 is better built and considerably faster, in addition to the 400 series not requiring a fuel stop in Sal Island adding an unnecessary hour and a half to an already brutal ride, particularly for those of us who absolutely hate to ride anywhere in an airplane, particularly on an American carrier. With a couple of million commuter miles under my belt, give or take a few, at age 65 that trip in the A340 is a killer.

Africa has, until recently, been at the top of the airline fatality rate worldwide. There are several reasons for this. Lack of proper crew training, maintenance and equipment all contribute. I think the honor now goes to the former Soviet republics, but only by a point or two. It is a widely known fact in the aviation world that if you climb onto an African carrier, you are taking your life in your hands. SAA and Ethiopian were the two notable exceptions to this fact. There is a good reason why most African carriers are banned from US operations. They are overwhelmingly substandard and cannot qualify.

Regarding crew training, record keeping, maintenance and crew qualifications, the FAA has a standard that they have set for foreign carriers to meet if they wish to operate into the US. European, most Asian and most Middle and Near Eastern carriers qualify. Some Latin American carriers vary, some are excellent. TACA is a good example of a successful Latin American carrier with a good safety record, and so is LACSA, both owned by the same group.

I have been retired for about nine years, so my information comes in through friends who are on my worldwide network of active pilots, maintenance personnel and management guys and ladies. When we get something noteworthy, we circulate it among ourselves. This letter is one of those items that is in circulation. I believe it is credible.

If I were going back to South Africa from the States, I would choose Delta over SAA without question. There was a time when this would have made no difference. That time has passed.

Regarding an FAA letter, I don't see the mention of one. The FAA has given them three months to get their act together. I would imagine that a letter was involved, but the author does not mention one.

Whatever the case, you may ride on whatever airline you choose. I know that Delta's training, pilot qualification and maintenance standards are among the highest in the industry. I have flown several hundred thousand miles on Delta over the length of my career, and the only problem I ever had with them was an occasional arrogant cabin attendant.

Jetdriver, Thanks for the information. That is some scary shit!! When I return to Africa, it will definately be on Delta.

jetdrvr,
Many thanks for your posts. Delta for me this year! However, I did have a nice trip on Northwest/KLM through Amsterdam four years ago. No prob. going through Amsterdam, but one must know the rules for transiting with firearms.

I am booking a flight to Namibia in Oct. What are the suggestions. If I fly SAA through Frankfurt I can fly straght to Windhoek the same day I arrive in Joburg, so no rifle import hassle. If I Fly Delta I have to overnight in Joburg (Afton of course) but then I have to officially import my rifles......Is this right, and what exactly are the new SA import hassles. Last time I was there it was no big deal but I know that it has changed.
Jason

quote:

Originally posted by silwane:
I am booking a flight to Namibia in Oct. What are the suggestions. If I fly SAA through Frankfurt I can fly straght to Windhoek the same day I arrive in Joburg, so no rifle import hassle. If I Fly Delta I have to overnight in Joburg (Afton of course) but then I have to officially import my rifles......Is this right, and what exactly are the new SA import hassles. Last time I was there it was no big deal but I know that it has changed.
Jason

I flew from Houston to Frankfurt on Lufthansa then Air Namibia from Frankfurt to Windhoek. I definately recommend this route.

I realize this does not address the safety issue, but if you look at airlinequality.com you will get a very different picture.
These are reviews from people who have flown SAA. Some recent reviews some older reviews.

Dr.C- Try and source someone who has flown SAA from ,say,2000 to the present. They will most likely tell you it is a airline in steep decline. I can't imagine how any website could objectively say different. Even to a non aviator like me, the changes were obvious enough to seek other options on my last two trips. But to hear about the issues beyond what we see from the cabin just curls my hair. One particular agent(he will remain nameless) that many of the AR gang uses had discouraged me and others from booking SAA. I an GUESSING his reasons stemmed from dealing with them on a regular basis doing business and not safety. It just so happens that this gentleman is South African.

Crane, read for youself. The reports are as recent as Dec 2007. These reviews seem to be significantly better than most other airlines.

Dr.C- I just read them. That is a nice site. There are plenty of critical comments offered as I skimmed trhrough the reports.I was asking myself- "Who would take the time...."

As you noted, the late 2007 reports were positive. That they fly at one half capacity in off season may be a factor. Each to his own but they are not seeing any more business from me.

LHOOK has it right. If you are going to Namibia that is the best route to take. It is the one all of my Namibian friends use if they can.

I also rode down to Dar in '06 on Northwest/KLM. The Northwest portion from Orlando to Detroit and across the pond was rather ordinary, but I caught a brand new 777 on KLM out of AMS. Very nice flight, all things considered, since I flew coach. I was particularly impressed the the KLM security procedures before boarding the return aircraft from AMS to DET. They interviewed each passenger thoroughly. Now, that's security.

All I know, folks, is what I read in the letter.

As a former airline pilot, my concerns are primarily about safety and not so much the cabin serivce. That, in my opinion, is what we all should be concerned about, but I realize that solid information on any particular airline's ongoing problems is very difficult to obtain. That's why I published the letter.

I've seen SAA at it's best in 1988 and at it's worst in 2006. The decline throughout the years has been obvious. I swore after the 2006 trip I would never fly SAA again. I saw a black customer treat a white(the only one) attendent like trash and refuse to sit down even as the plane was taking off. She would have been thrown off any other plane and arrested. What happens?, SAA head attendent treated the bitch like the queen of sheba the rest of the trip, brought her a bottle of wine, etc, etc, etc. they told the bitch the guy would be fired, on and on and on!!!!! I was so pissed off after the trip I found the attendent, gave him my business card and told him if they gave him any crap to have his attorney call me and I would tell "The rest of the story".
My travel agent has convinced me they have changed their ways for the better so I rebooked on SAA against my better judgement. She better be right!!!!!

Good luck.

It's not the bush Africans they have working the cabin that concern me, up to a point, although in '05 when I went down to Joburg, I encountered some surly, ignorant blacks "in charge" of the cabin. I can only imagine what would have happened if a cabin fire had started up. They appeared to be too stupid to operate a fire extinguisher successfully.

My concern is and has primarily always been safety. If other international carriers are skimming the cream of the pilot and maintenance staff, it brings the very safety of the flight into question. When I'm sitting in the back, I always think about what idiot left an oil fitting loose, or didn't replace a bad cannon plug, or are the fuel gauges properly calibrated. That's the kind of stuff that gave me grey hairs over an almost four-decade aviation career. I've had mechanics with American A&P licenses almost kill me. I can only imagine what kind of talent is showing up with toolboxes at the SAA maintenance facilities. It scares me, and I did it for a living.

Most passengers have no idea just how complex a large jet aircraft really is, and what kind of talent is required to both repair it and fly it. You don't become an aircraft inspector overnight. It takes years of experience to know when a subtle mistake has been made by a less-qualified mechanic. If they are hiring black mechanics with little or no experience to work on their aircraft, I can only imagine what kind of shape that aircraft may be in. It's what you don't know that kills you.

Like a sign I have on my wall says, "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect." That is an absolute truth. If SAA has idiots working on their machinery, I don't want to get on one of the machines. The letter from the captain rather plainly states that there is a huge problem. I'd fly Delta, KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, TAP, BA, or Ethiopian, because they adhere to ICAO safety and training standards, but I will never again board an SAA aircraft unless and until I know personally that they've gotten things properly under control. Fly 'em if you like. There's always an element of luck involved, but I'd rather be good than lucky.

The best demonstration of "good luck" in surviving an air disaster is NOT surviving the crash, but rather missing that particular flight altogether.

Sounds like a lot of people reading this subject just got lucky.

AD

I'd like to share an observation, but qualified by no direct experience with SAA. I can only speak with experience on the "airworthiness" issue regarding operations in the US by foreign carriers and treatment by the FAA.

I've had 25 years experience in management with 3 different airlines, 2 major US airlines the third and latest with a Caribbean national airline. The airline had just received the "90 letter" from the FAA for "significant airworthiness issues" when I was hired to beef up processes. Such significant airworthiness issues noted by the FAA as, the red paint faded in the molded lettering in the bottom of the food tray. The American FAA inspector wrote he couldn't read that the "Life Preserver is located under the seat" because the paint was faded; and the button in the seat that switches from channel 1 to channel 9 doesn't work properly, so the entire seat is "unairworthy". And Shelf life issues! Does anyone have Locktite in their tool box? Consider how you use it, and then consider that the FAA demands that airlines have a system for chemicals like locktite to insure they are managed for shelflife. Read the label; the loctite label indicates that the Locktite company will not warrant the product beyond 1 year "from the date of shipment", and "best if maintained between 50-60 degrees F. That means, to the FAA, locktite and items like it must be maintained in an temperature conditioned room between 50-60 degrees, and the shelf life is 1 year. Throw it away, and dispose of it so that the airline can account for every 1 oz container because of "bogus parts" sold on the market.


A food tray for an airliner is over US$500 each, 120 day lead time; and how many on an airliner? The seat switches are 6 month lead time, US$450 each; maximum deferral is 120 days--so lock out the seats and fly 1/2 full. No issues found with items relevent to flying the airplane, but months of getting beat around by the FAA for basically nonsense issues. Meanwhile, I nonrev on Delta and the writing on the back of the tray tables are faded, clips that have the test data missing from the seat belts missing, I can't switch from channel 1-9, etc.

I'm not defending or bashing any airline here, just consider all the outside political forces that may be at play here in the critique of a carrier on the altar of safety. Sometimes all is not it appears to be.
Shotgun

quote:

Originally posted by Shotgun31:

A food tray for an airliner is over US$500 each, 120 day lead time; and how many on an airliner?
Shotgun

Unless you meant $5.00 (five) or it isn't the tray that food is served on, as I think, then I call massive bullshit on that line.

I have sold and delivered thousands of those trays--no way.

Lastly, my brother was a long time air traffic controller, and he had told me of woes with SAA as recently (or long ago I guess depending on your point of view) as 2004.

The FAA may cite some BS infractions, I sure believe they may, but the standards they look at for pilots and maintainence are pretty clear cut, and make good sense.

I would like to disagree with Shotgun's post above. With all the political BS I'm surprised we aren't required to fly an African carrier to that continent. The next time you are in the presence of a SAA crewmember ask him some of the questions brought up by this thread. ( off the record of course) The politically correct part for SAA management came in when they bought the Scarebus over the Boeing aircraft. I also have some airline experience having retired from Delta with 37 yrs the last 27 as a pilot. The FAA sets the standard for aviation safety and they take the job seriously. I don't believe decertifying SAA would be politically expedient or taken lightly because our government is largely responsibile for what their government.

Agreed.

The old line goes, "Hi. We're from the FAA and we're here to help you." Common joke around the industry.

But...you cannot ignore the problems at SAA simply because there are some jerks in the FAA who want to decertify a seat because of a bad audio button.

Apparently, the problems are endemic and involve crew qualifications, training, and maintenance. Decertifying SAA would be a political hot potato, particularly since many in the US Government worked so hard to get rid of aparteid. Now, the realities of that decision are being felt all over South Africa and will continue so.

I will never hesitate to climb on any airplane flying Delta's colors, because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Delta's crew certification standards are uniformly high, and the same goes for their maintenance.

But I have serious doubts about SAA and I won't fly them again. I spent 39 years flying airplanes and commuting all over the world. I never got a scratch. I'm still alive because of excellent training and possibly what some I have flown with would consider caution and good judgement, or so I've been told. Right now, I consider climbing on SAA as being bad judgement. I'm too old to change my ways.

I'm flying to Namibia via Frankfurt in mid June. My travel agent asked me if I wanted a price comp between that route and flying SAA to J'berg-Windhoek? I said, no, for two reasons, SAA and the firearms transfer hassle in J'berg. I hadn't read this thread at that time (yesterday) but I won't be flying SAA anytime soon after reading it.

I've flown some crappy airlines on some crappy planes (TACA, better known as Take A Chance Airlines comes immediately to mind) but I'm older and have kids now, I'd like to be around to see the grow up a bit more (if they ever do ).