Well there's folks that hunt thens there folks that sit in a stand & admire that pretty wood & show it off at the camp. They have to be sooo careful not to scratch it that it takes away some of the enjoyment of the hunt. I used to be one of those folks then i came to my senses!

Nice intro Doug. I place esthetics on the hunt; the places, the fellowship, nature, the outdoors, the heritage.

I'm pragmatic regarding the tools of the hunt.

The tool is merely the means, not the end or the result. That's why the invention of the nail gun was a good idea, and the market for artsy fartsy hammers declined. And, those hammers still on the market, mostly sport fiberglass or synthetic handles, rather than wood.

KB

"Aestheticism is a search after the signs of the beautiful. It is the science of the beautiful through which men seek the correlation of the arts. It is, to speak more exactly, the search after the secret of life". Oscar Wilde

“Pragmatism” means that we look at our own behaviors and ideas and ask ourselves—Do they work? Are they getting us to where we want to go? Pragmatism and flexibility go hand in hand, because the world keeps changing around us. Author Unknown

"Consider the practical effects of the objects of your conception. Then, your conception of those (practical) effects is the whole of your conception of the object" the pragmatic maxim, Charles Sanders Peirce

It seems to me the synthetic guys sure spend a lot more emotion trying to ridicule the wood guys than vica versa. I think that says something about emotional security, or the lack of it. A bit pathetic.

Obviously, one of us is bias.

I was thinking just the opposite, and considered it pathetic as well, not in regard to emotionional security, since I'm not qualified to say. Not in regard to the preference of wood either, since that's a perogotive. But pathetic in regard to the comments about toilet seats, tupperwear, etc. which is not said as a joke, still in respect for differences of opinion.

In my particular case, I would like for you to quote the specific wording where I rediculed the wood guys.

Also I would like to see specific quotes where the emotion of the McSwirlies resembles that of the woodies. I think it's a no-contest in that degree of gushing.

KB

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy & admire a beautiful piece of wood as well as the next guy.
What I DO like about wood is that it can be contoured just like you want it to be. Yep you can also do that to a glass stock but by useing Bondo not wood rasp.

It's my understanding that McMillan does not use Bondo on their stocks, and IMO, it reflects a presupposition thinking that Bondo is even in the same paragraph with excellent fiberglass stocks.

I don't know for a fact that McMillan doesn't use Bondo, but I would be surprised if they do. And if they do, I would like to know to what extent. If it's used to fill voids or something like that, for stocks to be painted - or what?

I know that the gunsmiths I work with do not use Bondo, because I ask them what exactly they do use when bedding. Actually, I don't remember a gunsmith saying anything about Bondo. Frankly, I can't think of what it would be used for on any of the McMillan blanks that I've seen.

As far as alterations to a McMillan stock, they don't need any of enough significance to require major surgery, and repairs, or glass work. IMO, it's very dumb to mess with fixing something that ain't broke. A major part of the appeal, and value, in a McMillan stock is the fact that they don't need major work to finish out. For most applications they are drop-in inletted, and require simple glass bedding. Within the choices, a proper fit can be found for 95% or greater, with anything close to normal anatomy. Their Monte Carlo design - the hunter is a clone of the Sako Hunter stock, which IMO is the best Monte Carlo design ever. Their Classic, which is offered for several rifles, is also the best classic design - ever. IMO, any of the walnut custom smiths would be wise to buy a McMillan classic blank, and use for a pattern on the duplicator, in which case Bondo would be OK to repair scratches made by the duplicator, or to build up certain areas which may later be scraped off to the original specs.

KB

My guess is that 30 or 40 years from now, guys will be talking about "back in the day" and when the topic of Swirlies comes up they'll be saying, "what were they thinking?" Don't think they'll say the same about wood.

I don't mean to be rude, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what they say 30 or 40 years from now, especially about choices I make about gunstocks. I may care about something else, but not that. It never occured to me, until you mentioned it, and I still don't care.

One thing is probable, however, the McMillan may actually be the subject of such an event 30 or 40 years from now, regardless of the amount of use it is subjected to. The more the better, to stir the amazment and appreciation of the Nimrods of the future. The wood stock, on the other hand, will be the subject of pity, nostalga or joy, completely dependant of the amount of use it sees over the years, as exemplified by the safe queens and museum pieces displayed on this very forum, and gushed over by aficionados of the organic masterpieces.

Persuming that McMillan is still in business 30-40 years from now, and a grandpaw wants to give his old Mauser, set in a McMillan stock when Grandpaw was still active and a real hunter, to his nimrod grandson, but somehow the stock is damaged. Tell me, please, what part of this is ambiguous?

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-warranty.php

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't mean to be rude, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what they say 30 or 40 years from now,

I don't either.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't mean to be rude, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what they say 30 or 40 years from now, especially about choices I make about gunstocks. I may care about something else, but not that. It never occured to me, until you mentioned it, and I still don't care.

One thing is probable, however, the McMillan may actually be the subject of such an event 30 or 40 years from now, regardless of the amount of use it is subjected to. The more the better, to stir the amazment and appreciation of the Nimrods of the future. The wood stock, on the other hand, will be the subject of pity, nostalga or joy, completely dependant of the amount of use it sees over the years, as exemplified by the safe queens and museum pieces displayed on this very forum, and gushed over by aficionados of the organic masterpieces.
KB

Don't forget at least the McSwirlys will still hold point of aim in 40 years.

The aforementioned wooden customs never will, but then again they don't shoot wortha shit when they come from the builder anyway.

I wonder "what are they thinking" now as the wooden stocked express-stalker mauser rifle looked like dogshit 40-50 years ago.......a stock designed (and suited) for dangerous game hunting, useless for the majority of other hunting.

And you don't think some of today's Swirlies look like dog shit? You know what happens when a dog eats a box of crayons, don't you?

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't mean to be rude, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what they say 30 or 40 years from now, especially about choices I make about gunstocks. I may care about something else, but not that. It never occured to me, until you mentioned it, and I still don't care.

One thing is probable, however, the McMillan may actually be the subject of such an event 30 or 40 years from now, regardless of the amount of use it is subjected to. The more the better, to stir the amazment and appreciation of the Nimrods of the future. The wood stock, on the other hand, will be the subject of pity, nostalga or joy, completely dependant of the amount of use it sees over the years, as exemplified by the safe queens and museum pieces displayed on this very forum, and gushed over by aficionados of the organic masterpieces.
KB

Don't forget at least the McSwirlys will still hold point of aim in 40 years.

The aforementioned wooden customs never will, but then again they don't shoot wortha shit when they come from the builder anyway.

I wonder "what are they thinking" now as the wooden stocked express-stalker mauser rifle looked like dogshit 40-50 years ago.......a stock designed (and suited) for dangerous game hunting, useless for the majority of other hunting.

That's pretty funny stuff..

Harry Selby's 416 Rigby probably has killed more game than you will ever SEE and it did not look like "dogshit" after 30+ years in the African bush. As a matter of fact if glass stocks are SO great WHY are double rifle not stocked in them? To this day-even most DGR bolt guns used by professionals STILL are not stocked in glass.

If you'd put that tiny pin head of yours out of your arse, you'd realize that a glass bedded pillar stocked bolt rifle with a free floated barrel in properly finished and cured wood has about as much chance of changing POI in the next 40 years as you do of being hired by NASA..

I have seen PLENTY of glass stocks (both gel coated and painted) with dings dents chips etc after just ONE year of serious usage. In thirty years they would look like a gravel road.

The also crack,move, warp under temperature extremes. And,if not bedded probably don't shoot worth a damn either. The material a stock is made from ALONE made up for importer fit and bedding.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
The aforementioned wooden customs never will, but then again they don't shoot wortha shit when they come from the builder anyway.

Yep, just plop them wooden customs in a Swirlie and they become instant tackdrivers.

quote:

Originally posted by jim62:
That's pretty funny stuff..

Harry Selby 416 Rigby probably has killed more game than you will ever SEE and it did not look like shit after 30+ years in the African bush. As a matter of fact if glass stocks are SO great WHY are double rifle not stocked in them? To this day most DGR bolt guns used by professionals STILL are not stocked in glass.

If you'd put that tiny pin head of yours out of your dub arse, you'd realize that a glass bedded pillar stocked bolt rifle with a free floated barrel in properly finished and cured wood has about as much chance of changing POI in the next 40 years as you do of graduating high school..

I have seen PLENTY of glass stocks (both gel coated and painted) with dings dents chips etc after just ONE year of serious usage.

The also crack,move, warp under temperature extremes. And,if not bedded probably don't shoot worth a damn either.

The material a stock is made from ALONE made up for importer fit and bedding.

I'm having fun, and hope likewise for you and others.

I understand all of the above post, except the last sentence.

I also AGREE (mostly) with what you said, except the high school part.

As I said earlier, hammers will certainly work as well with wooden handles, which has been well proven. I think the double rifles are far more traditional, and it's simple, they don't need more than wood - again if it ain't broke why fix it. Bolts rifles have broken through tradition somewhat, and fiberglass has shown advantages. After all, double rifles havent shown up in competative shooting, as far as I know, excpet as like practice for the real event of DG hunting. For many fiberglass stocked rifles, the real event is competition or some tactical event, in which case fiberglass has proven advantages.

McMillan makes a stock for the CZ 550 Safari action, and IMO that setup is a superb DG combo, for even the heaviest recoil and the largest cartridges suitable for that action. This stock can be ordered with the toughest of fiberglass or kevlar shell, and fill, that can be found anywhere on earth, and certainly tougher (and lighter) than any useable wood. There may be some tough wood out there to compare, but walnut it aint, and the weight would be a major factor. But my point is that fiberglass has made breakthroughs in DG rifles, and McMillan offers the best that I know of in that league.

I've never seen a McMillan move, warp or crack. It's true that proper bedding is very important to wring the best accuracy out of any rifle/stock combo. On a hard kicking rifle, proper bedding is very important to prevent damage to the stock. Even a fiberglass stock should be carefully glass bedded and reinforced by someone who knows what they are doing, and the need for that increases as the recoil increases. IMO, most of the time failure to bed properly will actually damage the stock, whether wood or fiberglass. The damage will just be more noticable and more quickly noticable the heavier the recoil.

An exception to the rule seems to be a Hogue stock. I am keeping close and careful watch on a Hogue stock that's on my Ruger 77MKII, chambered in 458WM. I have no extra recoil lug on that rifle, besides the one under the front guard screw - the little one that comes with all Ruger 77s. Yet that stock has shown no ill effects from the pounding of stiff 400 gr loads. It's the version that does not have the full aluminum block bedded in. I'm relatively sure that any wooden stock would have failed given the same challange. I wouldn't even try it like that with wood.

The nice thing about dings and chips in fiberglass is that it can be repaired fairly easily, and if it shows, it doesn't matter so much, but on wood, looks matter, and the more the wood costs, the more it matters.

I have several rifles with what I call really good walnut stocks, not superior, but good solid pieces. All walnut is not the same. I have one stock that wanders depending on the humidity in the air, and the temp, and I've so-called sealed that moisture sucker several times. The odd thing is that particular stock has good grain flow and layout, very nicely quarter sawn for a factory stock. Another odd or funny thing about that stock is that I can see it has moved, by looking at the little gap in the barrel channel. Sometimes the gap is bigger on one side, and the next time it's bigger on the other side. But I have not yet been able to prove that it affects accuracy, since the darn rifle shoots good groups regardless which side of the barrel channel it favors one day compared to the next. It's just messing with me - I know it just has "character".

The other walnut stocks I own have proven to be very stable and reliable. They are all glass bedded, and will shoot groups equal to any of my synthetic stocked rifles. The difference is that when I choose a rifle to take hunting in Alaska, generally it ain't predicted to be a nice dry day out, and I'll reach for a McMillan stocked rifle most of the time, and a Hogue most of the remaining times. I can't even remember the last time I actually hunted with a walnut stocked rifle in Alaska, but I take them to the range, with a roof cover, and shoot them in the rain or snow, and develop loads, and dream of nice weather and deer or hog hunting down south. They are still very enjoyable rifles to own. In fact, I think my most accurate rifle wears a walnut stock, but it's till a fair weather rifle to me.

As a practical matter, McMillan fiberglass can be considered having sameness, in stability and structure, comparing one stock to the other, of the same class. Competition or tactical stocks are not comparable to hunting stocks, IMO.

KB

I said they looked like shit, and they do. Absolutely fucking ugly 40+ years ago and still ugly today- my opinion. But I'm sure your wife is beautiful....

I have both wooden rifles and synthetics. Not everyone lives in a desert/temperate climate and unfortunately even a properly built/bedded and stored wooden rifle will crack. I know from experience. That's why I always check the zero every year before I go hunting. It's the right thing to do.

Maybe I need to stick my head in my ass and not do that- after all I read you don't have to do that by some delta bravo rocket scientist on an internet forum that they don't change POI so it must be true.

PS One of the McSwirly's posted above is owned by an absolutely phenomenal stockmaker, the rifle he built is one of the nicest guns I own.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
But I'm sure your wife is beautiful....

I have both wooden rifles and synthetics.

My last wife was beautiful physically, but she taught me that ugly is what ugly does. Physical beauty is not sufficient consolation for the pain of ugly behavior.

On the subject of rifles, I don't have any ugly rifles, but I do have walnut and synthetics, and like them all.

I haven't had the dilemma of wondering whether a particular rifle has held its zero, since I shoot them often enough to confirm. But I record the exact load each fully functional rifle I own is sighted in for. If I change loads, I record that. Yes, I keep a spreadsheet on the status, setup and history of each rifle, completed and in progress.

I have never yet found a McMillan or Hogue stocked rifle to mysteriously change POI, even when the stock is removed for cleaning, and put back. Changing scopes is a different story.

I don't recall a change of POI with a wood stocked rifle that's been thoroughly tested and has a set load, but in recent years I haven't let a shootable rifle sit idle a long time either. I alternate those I take to the range, so in a year's time I've generally shot them all at least a session or two. I have maybe three rifles that have one set load, which I don't change or experiment with anymore. All the others, I shoot a variety of loads, and test new loads often, so it's really important to keep up with exactly what load the rifle is last sighted in with, just in case it wants to go hunting.

If I can't shoot a finished rifle within a year's time, I might as well sell it, and do. Most of my unfinished rifle projects that have been in-progress way over a year, and I've sold some of those too.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
My guess is that 30 or 40 years from now, guys will be talking about "back in the day" and when the topic of Swirlies comes up they'll be saying, "what were they thinking?" Don't think they'll say the same about wood.

I found a funny one, that made me think of your post.

Do you realize that, in about 40 years, there will be thousands of old ladies running around with tattoos on their lower backs, and rap music will be the Golden Oldies!

KB

This will probably make the heads of some of the posters in this thread explode, but it is possible to like and appreciate both Swirlys and fine wood stocked rifles. Here are my two most used rifles:



Each has their place.

This isn't a McSwirley, but it's the next best thing. A HS Precision on a Ruger 77MKII, chambered in 9.3x338 or 366 Alaskan. It's the rifle that has been in progress since before 2007. It's finally finished, and may be recognized by someone. I'm happy with the paint and bedding job. Thanks Charley. It came in today, and I could hardly wait to get off work, and slap a scope on it, and go to the range. I was not dissappointed. It shoots just as good as it did before, maybe better, but it took only five shots to get it sighted in. Very simple to dial in to zero. Very tiny group, with 250 gr TSX over 63 grs of H4895, a very conservative load for this wildcat. I have not cronographed that load, but I'm very satisfied with the accuracy. I tested this rifle a lot, with it just dropped in a Hogue stock, before sending it off to be finished out in the HS Precision, and before the teflon coating. It's probably the easiest rifle/cartridge combo that I've ever handloaded for, and that's without having any published load data. I simply used what I could find for the 9.3x64, and stayed conservative. H4895 is a very forgiving powder, after all. It likes RL 15 just as well, and easily did 2800 fps with the Nosler 250gr AB.







How do you think it will fit into this hunting environment? Notice the sitka deer in the center of the frame.

Looks like it will do just fine. Glad you like the way it turned out, you have a very nice rifle there.

Good luck, I hope you knock down a monster.

Here's the McSwirley that was on order. CZ 550 Classic MARBLE -- 34% OLIVE / 33% BLACK / 33% WOODLAND BEIGE

The barreled action is drop-in fit. I just put it in there to see how it feels. I'll have it properly bedded before shooting it. It's very shoulder friendly, nice and slim - much slimer and lighter than the factory CZ stock.

This is a custom project, started with a CZ 550 medium action from Brownells, trued squared and lapped, three-position safety polished to get the burrs off, trigger adjusted, PacNor barrel stainless factory contour, chambered in 8x57 3 groove 10" twist. Because I use handloads 95% of the time, I'm thinking of having it reamed out to 8x60S. I have the dies, and lots of brass already.

Before I call it done, besides bedding, I'll probably have the metal coated and change out the rings for some Burris or Leupold rings.

quote:

Kabluewy

I ussually hate camoflague but that is a great looking rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Here's the McSwirley that was on order. CZ 550 Classic MARBLE -- 34% OLIVE / 33% BLACK / 33% WOODLAND BEIGE

That is a great combo. What stock pattern is that? Sako classic?

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:
That is a great combo. What stock pattern is that? Sako classic?

It's like the Sako Classic, but not simply inletting a blank. I think the so-called Sako Classic is a pattern of their own design, not a copy of a Sako stock like the Sako Hunter is. They just initially offered the Classic for the Sako. Over time they took the Sako Classic, and made molds for several other rifles, such as the Mauser, Ruger, Winchester, and the CZ 550 medium, and others. The differences seem to be mostly in the depth of the magazine area, and the tang. Small differences, but enough to cause problems with just inletting the same blank for different rifles.

So, yes it's the same pattern as a Sako Classic, but out of a mold set up specifically for the CZ 550 medium.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:
That is a great combo. What stock pattern is that? Sako classic?

It's like the Sako Classic, but not simply inletting a blank. I think the so-called Sako Classic is a pattern of their own design, not a copy of a Sako stock like the Sako Hunter is. They just initially offered the Classic for the Sako. Over time they took the Sako Classic, and made molds for several other rifles, such as the Mauser, Ruger, Winchester, and the CZ 550 medium, and others. The differences seem to be mostly in the depth of the magazine area, and the tang. Small differences, but enough to cause problems with just inletting the same blank for different rifles.

So, yes it's the same pattern as a Sako Classic, but out of a mold set up specifically for the CZ 550 medium.

KB

Actually, that "classic' pattern McMillan uses is a copy of the HEYM Classic sporter bolt stock from the late 1980s/early 1990s.
McMillan made the stocks for those rifles and then adapted the pattern for other actions over the years (Mauser m98,Sako etc).

About the only truly in house sporter pattern they have made is the recent(and oddly named ) Remington "Sporter" pattern. It is a very highly detailed Classic pattern that styled well enough that if it were cut in nice wood, would not look out of place on a guild rifle. At least one custom stock maker was involved in it's design.

Actually, the EDGE or Compact pattern was also designed in house by Dick Davis. It's one of their more popular stocks now.

I personally hate the Remington Sporter. Can't stand the grip, and the shape and width of the fore arm seem out of balance to me.

quote:

Originally posted by jim62:
Actually, that "classic' pattern McMillan uses is a copy of the HEYM Classic sporter bolt stock from the late 1980s/early 1990s.
McMillan made the stocks for those rifles and then adapted the pattern for other actions over the years (Mauser m98,Sako etc).

That's good to know. I always wondered where they got the classic pattern. It's obvious where the monte carlo "Hunter" pattern came from.

I'm glad the classic is available for the CZ 550 and the Ruger, and others. It would be great in wood as well, IMO. I also have the same stock from McMillan on a Ruger barreled action, just waiting its turn to be bedded and painted.

KB

Kabluewy
That is a nice Ruger in 9.3-338. Your load of 63 gr $895 with the 250 gr TSX is extremely mild. I use the same load in my 9.3X62 Simson Mauser. I suspect that you could use 9.3X64 brenneke loads. Just check cartridge case capacity & go from there.

I really like your rifle - very practical for the bush, rain or sun.

JMTBW Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
Actually, the EDGE or Compact pattern was also designed in house by Dick Davis. It's one of their more popular stocks now.

I personally hate the Remington Sporter. Can't stand the grip, and the shape and width of the fore arm seem out of balance to me.

Yep, forgot about the "Compact"..

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Speaking of apples and oranges.

What a great idea. I need one of those. I am constantly losing my rifle (and my knife) in the woods!

I imagine that'd blend in real well with a hunters orange vest. Seeing most states require you wear one toting a certain mcswirly combo as being able to "blend in" with the surrounding area is pointless.

I think that's not a McMillan color. It looks like fluorescent orange paint. Although McMillan offers orange, I think it a more subdued shade of orange.

I have often thought of ordering a molded in color stock, marbeled with 1/3 each of orange, black, and beige. I figure if it's appropriate for the tiger, it's right for a hunting rifle.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I think that's not a McMillan color. It looks like fluorescent orange paint. Although McMillan offers orange, I think it a more subdued shade of orange.

I have often thought of ordering a molded in color stock, marbeled with 1/3 each of orange, black, and beige. I figure if it's appropriate for the tiger, it's right for a hunting rifle.

KB

Actually, 50/50 orange and black looks pretty cool, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I think that's not a McMillan color.

I think you would be wrong.

It's paint - right?

I've been wrong before. I don't worry about it till I've exceeded my allotment for the month of September, and I have some wrong tokens left over from August, which I should use first.

Very interesting thread.

Mainly because of the comments from the peanut gallery criticizing the other side's choice.

If you regard your rifle as simply a tool, like a hammer, then by all means have a synthetic stock. If you regard your rifle as a tool AND an art object, then a wood stock is appropriate.

Neither will hold zero for 40 or even 4 years if treated poorly while both will hold zero indefinitely if properly cared for.

A wood stock takes more effort in all ways, both in construction and in actual field use.

Is the extra effort and expense of a wood stock worth it? Only the owner can answer that question.

Speaking personally, I own and use only wood-stocked rifles. They are heavier, cost more, are MUCH better-looking to my eye, and hold their zero just fine over the years. Plus, they allow me to use special stock furniture that would be problematical on a synthetic stock.

If you can't stand the idea of scratching your nice wood stock then perhaps you need to hang out back at the camp with the other sweet boys.

If you can't appreciate the beauty of a nice wood stock then perhaps you need to hang out down at the sawdust joint with the other Bubbas.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's paint - right?

I've been wrong before. I don't worry about it till I've exceeded my allotment for the month of September, and I have some wrong tokens left over from August, which I should use first.

No that is not paint, and yes you are wrong. However it is intended to be painted.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's paint - right?

No that is not paint, and yes you are wrong. However it is intended to be painted.

It has been my understanding that there are two options with McMillan stocks. (1) Molded in color or (2) paint. Generally, there is no point to the molded colors if the intent is to paint over it anyway. And the same applies to a molded in color that's just one color.

That doesn't look like a molded in color to me, but instead perhaps a primer oversprayed after the stock was removed from the mold.

Also that little chip near the forend checkering is a givaway. Looks like a paint chip to me.

I don't mind being wrong, and of course I have these tokens to use up, so I'll risk being wrong again by belaboring the question. Besides, an orange painted stock is a good enough cause to use up a few wrong tokens.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Very interesting thread.

Mainly because of the comments from the peanut gallery criticizing the other side's choice.

If you can't stand the idea of scratching your nice wood stock then perhaps you need to hang out back at the camp with the other sweet boys.

If you can't appreciate the beauty of a nice wood stock then perhaps you need to hang out down at the sawdust joint with the other Bubbas.
Regards, Joe

Now that we have input (Criticism) from the popcorn gallery ....... ?

I have both fine walnut and synthetics. I just cannot do the McSwirly thing. Mine are either black or grey, with one other being black with fine grey spiderwebbing.