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Someone could save 5 or 6 K if they needed these cal.s. I have no interest in gun. very best http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=378278617 | ||
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It has been for sale for most of this year. I saw it after D'Arcy had already begun work on my Legend in 404 Jeffery. | |||
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The owner is a poster on this board. He had it in the classifieds at some point earlier this year. Mac | |||
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$9500 for a rifle with a 'glass stock is a chunk of money. Not for the average rich guy. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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165 hours of skilled labor for $9500 is a steal. | |||
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I have an Enfield coming soon. You could not buy the metal work for $9500. | |||
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Ten thousand dollars for a ss gun with a plastic stock! L.O.L.    Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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I'm not arguing that point, but are Winchester model 70s really so screwed up that they need that much work? A little aftermarket tuning I understand, but it would seem that there is a point of diminishing return on the dollar... Is the final product 10 times better than a factory gun? 10 times more reliable? 10 times more accurate? How do you quantify the true worth of that skilled labor? | |||
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I won't make the argument that a $9500 (or $15,500) rifle is a necessity by any means, just as a high end watch or automobile is not "needed". Most factory guns will get the job done most of the time. My point is that the parts and labor on the Legend justify the price. I'm sure I could drive a Corolla, wear a Timex, and live in a studio apartment- but those things didn't motivate me to get through too much school and get out of bed to go to work every day. My time is expensive and I'd call myself average at what I do. Highly-skilled guys like D'Arcy, Shane, Duane, etc. work for very reasonable hourly rates. | |||
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Although most folks who spend the big $$ on highly tuned equipment like Rolex or Patek Philippe watches, Porche or Ferrari vehicles may simply be showing off, there are some folks, like professional hunters and other serious shoots who use rifles as tools feel the difference in highly tuned, accurate and relibility rifles is worth it. Tools from Harbor Freight look the same and can be purchased for a lot less than Snap On tools Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Well said, Phil. I see plenty of $100k plus hunt reports on this forum. A $15k rifle that isn't going to go tits up in nowhereistan is worthwhile insurance. | |||
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I have a Legend in 404 Jeffery and I will say it is worth what I paid for it to me. D'Arcy spent over a week just making sure it would feed properly everytime. I'm talking checking it hundereds of times. He ended up telling me that there is one particular bullet he could not get to feed, saying that occassionaly it would jam, and that despite everything he knew to do to make it work, the cobination of components, magazine and action would not allow that bullet to feed 100% reliably. I can tell you that just for grins I have tried to make that bullet jam and have not been able to do it. He could have sent me that rifle and necer said a word about it and I never would have known. Based on D'Arcys work I will not use that bullet because I might be able to make it jam when it matters most. D'Arcy delivered that rifle to me in time to get used to it and take it to Tanzania, but made me promise to send the bolt back to him to be refinished because he had wore the finish off it during his final feeding testing. Another 404 Jeff I have costs nearly as much, has a beutiful wood stock, and shoots just as well. It has not fed a couple of times over years, fortunately never at critical moments. It seems to be a bit particular as to how each cartridge is loaded in the magazine, but it is hard to duplicate and I'm sure the gun builder thought everything was fine. I have no doubt that D'Arcy would have never let that gun leave his shop. I also firmly believe that many of the big bores in use are less than 100% reliable with the flat point solids, even after they have been "made to feed properly". Few of their owners take the time to really test them by feeding fast and hard, slow and easy, with a full mag or with one or two short. In the end it probably will never really matter as there a few life threatening situations in which these rifles are used, and even then it may work fine on that occassion. So I think you get your moneys worth when you buy an Echols Legend, but what you are getting is not obvious when you look at a picture of one on a website or even when you hold it in your hands. | |||
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You are absolutely right about that, and not just with flat point solids. I've had a number of high-dollar bolt rifles that would not feed reliably, regardless of the ammunition used. I send my rifles to Wayne at AHR or Griffin & Howe with the ammunition I intend to use before I can count on them in my arsenal. | |||
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Some people will never understand this, but the majority only worry about a coyote coming after them. A cartridge not feeding will only allow them to be mauled by a small animal. | |||
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Hmmm. Stock made by McMillan? 165 hours? I don't see it. I wouldn't say that it's not a top flight rifle...it is, but you can also get other makers rifles, just as good, for a heck of a lot less money. They just don't have the name. I don't see the special magic of a barreled action in a McMillan stock taking that much time to build or selling for $9500. Maybe that's why the rifle isn't selling. For that kind of money I'd like to see some English walnut. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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It is true that for the majority of people a Marlin shoots as well as a Tubbs and a Mossberg as well as a Fabbri. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Unfortunately, when my step father passes away, all his tools will go in the trash - all Harbor Freight. Not even a few Craftsman pieces. All junk. If Mr Clowdis wants some fine walnut and a bit of engraving, he can find it here, but not for ten grand: http://www.hollandandholland.c...&l=new_york&v=new&c= Relative to what H&H charges, the Echols rifle is a huge bargain. Dave | |||
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$12,000 for the rifle and $30,000 for the Holland&Holland name? | |||
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When Mbogo is bearing down and you can see the snot coming out of his nose is the time to ask 'how much would I pay for a 100 percent always reliable rifle'. If you don't have one you can look at your wrist watch and say 'times up'. | |||
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You can't expect people who are "expert internet gunsmiths" to understand the time true precision work entails. D'Arcy's work is worth evey dime he charges...Dave Wesbrook | |||
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Finest hunting rifle made today. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Echols syn.Legend that feeds 100% of the time (VS) fancy walnut stock customs that don't feed. I know which one presents real worth & value to me.... ...and the delivery time of a Legend is another major plus...  at the end of the day, a rifle is a tool for a purpose, nothing more nothing less. I dont invest emotion it....or get carried away with aesthetics. | |||
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There certainly may be a willing buyer for the rifle but given that it has been for sale at that price, more or less, for about a year, then the general market is saying that the price is too high. It may well be a bargain at that price, but it is not selling at that price. If Echols keeps raising his prices, then the aftermarket value may catch up with his price. How long that will be is anyone's guess. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Actually, I sold a Legend in a common deer rifle type chambering for that much last year with only one barrel. I think the main issue is only so many guys need a 416. If it was a standard sporter in 300 Win or 7mm Rem, it would have sold quicker. Chet | |||
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You think Echols & Co. has not received orders for new Legends in the last 12 months or so that the used Legend has been for sale? The demand or saleability, for a used switch barrel Legend in .416 & .338, is probably different to say a more ordinary Legend; like a fixed barrel .270win or .300win The used Legend available for sale may also not have all the features a customer might prefer: ie; Echols proprietary fixed scope rings, custom bolt handle, or bow release-straddle bottom metal. | |||
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Not an internet gunsmith here Dave, full time in fact, doing mostly custom and accuracy work. I think D'arcy's actions are made by him, but how many hours would you have in a McMillan stock, custom barreled action and bottom metal. I certainly see the point in someone wanting something that will not fail at an improper time, but there are a lot of guns out there that are very reliable and look just as good. I won't begrudge a man his "Cadillac" if that's what he wants, I just don't see the hours stated in an above post. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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Absolutely. Well, hell, he deleted his post before I answered. The absolutely is in response to his, "Do you ever expect them (Echols) to drop to 50% of that level?" xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Trax, I must take issue with what you wrote and to argue that it does not apply at all to me and perhaps others. You wrote: "at the end of the day, a rifle is a tool for a purpose, nothing more nothing less. I dont invest emotion it....or get carried away with aesthetics.[/QUOTE]" I enjoy the appearance looks and beauty of my guns. It motivates me and pleases me. You may not feel that way and fine. To each his own. Here is a rifle with a stock that I find very attractive. I am going to make an effort to get a shot with it. It's a 7mm mag. on an FN action. I have other rifles that are similar but don't motivate me nearly as much. For instance I have a Montana in 7mm WSM that's sighted in and ready. But it does not have the look of that stock.  Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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I appreciate the same, but as I said before I don't get carried away or emotional, with aesthetics. I also prefer Echols modern stock geometry and style, rather than the stock you posted. I also fish with high-tech carbon fibre - instead of antiquated natural cane. Those modern fishing poles are still well designed & crafted, as is an Echols Legend. Buy an Eastwing hammer with syn. grip or laminated leather, one is free to liking one more than the other, but does not change the fact that it first & foremost, a tool designed for a specific purpose, no matter what emotional value or attachment, one has on it. | |||
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Rare is the custom rifle that, when resold, brings more than half its original selling price. An Echols is one of those rare custom rifles that will do that. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I am going to hunt for a buck I saw this weekend. The rifle I chose is my old Savage 99F .358 Win. The rifle has been extremely successful for me for a lifetime. No rifle, by no master smith could motivate me or do as well. http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8600/tas5.jpg Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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I tire of reading these posts. Gene Simillion will build you a rifle equivalent to the Legend for substantially less. So will many others. | |||
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It's been on there for a week now! How many bids do you think have been made? # of bids 0 Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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Trax, I said nothing about rifles that don't feed. You can have a nice looking rifle that feeds well too. Bravo to you for not being hampered by my sense of artistic appreciation, and for being content with one-size-fits-all plastic. A high end custom should first of all function flawlessly and be accurate, but I reserve my affections for those that also stir the soul like this one: http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/4311004491 My questions have to do with attempting to quantify the gains... (and despite my earlier post I understand it is not a linear relationship, incremental improvements are often the most expensive to implement) This is not Harbor Freight vs Craftsman, or Corolla vs Porshe, it is about taking one brand of thing and improving it. A better comparison would be a factory Porshe vs one with a balanced and blueprinted engine putting out identical horsepower and torque. (with no other functional or aesthetic upgrades, a plain jane paintjob, and selling for $500K vs $50K) It's really just a better, tighter toleranced version of the original. You can brand it a "Legend", but it is still a Winchester model 70 just like a Saleen Mustang is still a Ford. It's called marketing... I really can't think of any other product that you could take an off the shelf version, rework it, and charge over ten times the original price without any actual change in function or appearance. Personally if I were to put anywhere close to that kind of money towards a custom rifle I sure as hell wouldn't want it to look like it came off the vertical rifle rotiserie at Walmart. I have no doubt that Echols builds a high quality, very reliable rifle. However, until somebody posts hard data concerning actually tested Winchester feeding jam rates and average out of the box accuracy vs the Echols product all this discussion is a bunch of personal opinion. That's what I meant by quantifying the work done. Give me some numbers... The car comparison also got me wondering about the total number of machining operations to blueprint and rebuild a V-8 engine vs a bolt action rifle. By comparison a rifle is a pretty simple mechanical device. Anybody have any sense of the difference? (specifically hours involved...) | |||
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Well put, and Echols, and most of the other top builders as well, will be the first to tell you that their work may or may not improve the accuracy or reliability with a single type of ammo but over a large spectrum it should help. As for the automotive analogy, I know that Echols simply charges for his work by the hour and is no more expensive than most local auto mechanics. It is up to the buyer to determaine if the real or perceived reliability is worth the extra expense. Builders of that caliber are not competing with Walmart Rugers anymore than Porches are competing with Toyotas. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by montea6b: Trax, I said nothing about rifles that don't feed. No you didn't, but I did, talk to the guys on AR that got expensive walnut rifles from ACGG smiths that would not feed. You can have a nice looking rifle that feeds well too. Synthetic stock rifles like a Legend are, IMO, nice looking also, but you are entitled to your own opinion on that. Bravo to you for not being hampered by my sense of artistic appreciation, and for being content with one-size-fits-all plastic. the syn. Legend is made from a 'cookie cut' pattern, as are many walnut stock rifles from the top tiers smiths in the world. The Legend pattern will suite some people but not others, just like some wood stock patterns will or will not. No one obligated or forced a buy a Legend rifle if the syn. stock geometry does not suite them. A high end custom should first of all function flawlessly and be accurate, No argument there. You can brand it a "Legend", but it is still a Winchester model 70 just like a Saleen Mustang is still a Ford. It's called marketing... Mareketing sure, but open and honest marketing at the same time. Echols openly and freely states, that his Legends are M70 based. I really can't think of any other product that you could take an off the shelf version, rework it, and charge over ten times the original price without any actual change in function or appearance. Personally if I were to put anywhere close to that kind of money towards a custom rifle I sure as hell wouldn't want it to look like it came off the vertical rifle rotiserie at Walmart. Well as I said before, I don't get obsessed with looks or superfluous aesthetics, If you insist your rifle has to look a certain way before you pay $10,000 or more for it, that entirely your prerogative. I am quite satisfied with the way a Legend looks.... Looks don't kill when hunting. I have no doubt that Echols builds a high quality, very reliable rifle. However, until somebody posts hard data concerning actually tested Winchester feeding jam rates and average out of the box accuracy vs the Echols product all this discussion is a bunch of personal opinion. That's what I meant by quantifying the work done. Give me some numbers... Its not just about Feeding when talking an Echols Legend. Its also about, among other things; 1. His proprietary design [precise and strong] fixed scope rings 2. His high grade straddle custom bottom metal 3. His custom magazine box for extra capacity and strength 4. His extensive truing and refining of an m70 action 5. His high quality Echols signature design, McMillan stock. overall, look at all the time the Echols shop spends on a Legend build before shipping and the hrs correlate to the price charged. Anyone who does not appreciate or understand the time and cost involved, is not obligated to buy one. NO, an Echols Legend is NOT to everyones fit, budget or taste - and was never intended to be. Same applies to the many different custom rifles available on the market. [endQUOTE] | |||
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If I want to buy an original 1960s pristine condition street version Shelby AC Cobra 427, it can cost me a million easy. [Shelbys personal AC Cobra went for 5.5 million] Yet at the same time I can order a top tier modern rendition, that is better in every respect to the old original AC Cobra. better in engine, better in brakes, Better in chassis better in transmission, better in cooling system better in rearend-diff better in safety, better in rigidity,strength better in suspension & handling better in overall quality, fit,finish. better in etc, etc, etc, A new performance muscle car superior to the old original, in absolutely every respect. But the market would never pay anywhere near the price for that superior modern rendition, as what the market would pay for an overall inferior, but original AC Cobra 427. You think an old factory rough pre64 M70 is a better/more valuable rifle,.. than an Echols built M70? | |||
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Thanks for that. See also here from a few years ago... http://www.fieldandstream.com/...end-explained-part-i http://www.fieldandstream.com/...nd-explained-part-ii http://www.fieldandstream.com/...d-explained-part-iii | |||
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This is pretty cool too! http://youtu.be/sAr7d3acMYo | |||
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