"You can brand it a "Legend", but it is still a Winchester model 70 just like a Saleen Mustang is still a Ford. It's called marketing..."

I'm struggling to see how this is different from a custom rifle based on a Mauser action. I don't see anyone balking at $10k Mausers based on 1909s bought for $100.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

This is not Harbor Freight vs Craftsman, or Corolla vs Porshe, it is about taking one brand of thing and improving it. A better comparison would be a factory Porshe vs one with a balanced and blueprinted engine putting out identical horsepower and torque. (with no other functional or aesthetic upgrades, a plain jane paintjob, and selling for $500K vs $50K) It's really just a better, tighter toleranced version of the original.

You think an old factory rough pre64 M70 is a better/more valuable rifle,.. than an Echols built M70?

No.

What gave you that idea?

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
"You can brand it a "Legend", but it is still a Winchester model 70 just like a Saleen Mustang is still a Ford. It's called marketing..."

I'm struggling to see how this is different from a custom rifle based on a Mauser action. I don't see anyone balking at $10k Mausers based on 1909s bought for $100.

It's not different. I'd balk at a $10K Mauser in a plastic stock too.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
It's not different. I'd balk at a $10K Mauser in a plastic stock too.

People also balk at paying extra $000s' for superfluous premium fancy walnut & engraving, on rifles,
that essentially do nothing to improve the reliability or performance of a hunting rifle.
Echols improves the stability of premium walnut stocks by installing/epoxy bedding an aluminium
bar into the forend of all his Classic rifle builds.

To some people the ultalitarian designed Legend, has everything they need to enjoy ownership and hunting.
To some people [including me]...'less is more'.
I believe the syn. Legend came about because Echols existing clients, were repeatedly requesting such a product.
In other words, they created a demand, that Echols saw as a viable business decision to produce.
I believe it has proved a success.

I am sure there are people who love traditional wooden boats and there are still craftsmen who will meticulously
produce them for you.
But overwhelmingly, the luxury powerboat/motor yacht industry relies more heavily on modern high tech fibres & resins
to produce their hulls....and these are sold to clients who can afford just about anything they want.
Wood is mostly reserved for fitting out the exquisite living areas, not the structure or integrity of the vessel.

To want a traditional wooden luxury motoryacht is like wanting an orig. AC Cobra,
despite the fact that, the new AC Cobra and aramid-fibre resin motor yacht being the more practical & intelligent choice for your money.

Call a Legend stock 'plastic' if you like, but the fact is, that it is actually molded high-tech fibre and resin.
If you referred to a multi-million dollar motoryachts molded glass-aramid fibre hull and superstructure as 'plastic',
you would be considered rather ignorant - and rightfully so.

With homes, wood may be nice in some areas , but I know that areas constantly exposed to moisture or the elements, are probably better
fitted out with ceramic,glass and stainless steel.

An Echols Legend is simply following the line that many other industries do, by incorporating modern materials and design into their products.
Much to the pleasure & satisfaction of the products purchasers.

I much prefer glass-aramid fibre hulls over wooden hulls
I much prefer carbon-aramid fibre fishing poles over antiquated cane
I much prefer carbon-aramid fibre skis & poles to the old wood and cane versions
I much prefer G-10 material to wood or stag grips on a working knife.
I much prefer Nato strap to leather strap on an all conditions use wristwatch.
I much prefer to have a syn. stocked rifle when in rough conditions or the harsh elements.
In fact I would welcome & appreciate a Legend anytime I needed to use a bolt action CF-rifle in the course of hunting.

quote:

I honestly never thought that I would be working with synthetic stocks but so many clients who are very serious hunters kept asking,
and finally the Echols Legend came on the market. With such a good product available, it didn’t make any sense to not offer it as an option for my clients.
- Dave Norin.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
"You can brand it a "Legend", but it is still a Winchester model 70 just like a Saleen Mustang is still a Ford. It's called marketing..."

I'm struggling to see how this is different from a custom rifle based on a Mauser action. I don't see anyone balking at $10k Mausers based on 1909s bought for $100.

It's not different. I'd balk at a $10K Mauser in a plastic stock too.

I don't begrudge you for that, but it's one of the big reasons why we're not seeing a flood of young guys or gals enter the trade of custom gunmaking and stay there. Any auto mechanic or plumber can charge the hourly rate of a world class gunmaker with far less training and talent.

You know that both sides of this opinion is similar to the football forum that I am on. They had a bad year and most of the people want to string up the coaches and administration. They will not understand that most are freshman players. The point is everybody is an expert.

By the way my grandson set the school record for scoring this year by a freshman kicker.
I would love to have an Echol's rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You know that both sides of this opinion is similar to the football forum that I am on. They had a bad year and most of the people want to string up the coaches and administration. They will not understand that most are freshman players. The point is everybody is an expert.

By the way my grandson set the school record for scoring this year by a freshman kicker.
I would love to have an Echol's rifle.

Josh needs to call Alabama, or rather Alabama needs to call Josh......

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You know that both sides of this opinion is similar to the football forum that I am on. They had a bad year and most of the people want to string up the coaches and administration. They will not understand that most are freshman players. The point is everybody is an expert.

By the way my grandson set the school record for scoring this year by a freshman kicker.
I would love to have an Echol's rifle.

Josh needs to call Alabama, or rather Alabama needs to call Josh......

Yeah, they could use a kicker with about 10 more yards in his leg!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Rare is the custom rifle that, when resold, brings more than half its original selling price. An Echols is one of those rare custom rifles that will do that.

It's been on there for a week now!

How many bids do you think have been made?

# of bids 0

Two days left now as of 12/3. Still no bids!

Isnt the Legend stock exclusive to Echols? If so do you know the cost of making molds, time working with the syntheitc stock manufacturer, the minimum order size, up front deposit, etc...

I do, its not cheap. With exlusivity comes higher cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Isnt the Legend stock exclusive to Echols? If so do you know the cost of making molds, time working with the syntheitc stock manufacturer, the minimum order size, up front deposit, etc...

I do, its not cheap. With exlusivity comes higher cost.

I think you can buy the Legend Stock for $500-$700. I think I have heard that D'Arcy will sell them.

Here we go with the same old shit.

Form v function, $$$$$, muaser v win, synthetic v wood etc etc etc. Nothing but bullshit and pure ignorance.

The bottom line is that a Legend and (for the lack of a better term) an ACGG rifle are just plain different types of guns.

The people who can afford to spend 5 figures on a rifle will spend those on either camp (and quite often both) and for differing reasons and different applications.

Mssrs Wiebe, Anderson, Kobe et al are not competitors with Mr. Echols at all. The only thing their customers have in common is their tax brackets.

The same holds for Mr. Echols and the 700/clones/round action/synthetic boys and Mr. Echols, not competitors: only there the tax brackets are different.

In years past an Echols held its value with zero depreciation as there were what ? 10 or so made a year and the price going from $5-8-11-15K or so. My real question is that with the economy as it is, will a Legend ever get down to the 50% depreciation of a wooden custom.

Getting back to the original post. Thanks for the heads up. Few Echols rifles come up for sale.

I appreciate D'Arcys work so much that I ordered three rifles from Germany. Customs and red tape is a nightmare but the guns are wonderful and worth every cent.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
I appreciate D'Arcys work so much that I ordered three rifles from Germany. Customs and red tape is a nightmare but the guns are wonderful and worth every cent.

Having carried and used Echols rifle, as well as guiding numerous hunters who owned them, I can say this is the common opinion.
THE FOLKS WHO BUY ECHOLS RIFLES USE THEM. You can't say that about many other rifles in that price bracket.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Isnt the Legend stock exclusive to Echols? If so do you know the cost of making molds, time working with the syntheitc stock manufacturer, the minimum order size, up front deposit, etc...

I do, its not cheap. With exlusivity comes higher cost.

I heard through the grapevine the mold is $4,000. That sounded low to me as I've also been told what adding a new piece of plastic at Magpul costs and that was a number that blew my mind.

The Echols stock is a bargain at the price he sells it for. I just wish he would do them for short actions as well.

quote:

THE FOLKS WHO BUY ECHOLS RIFLES USE THEM. You can't say that about many other rifles in that price bracket.

Well, , if they're not going to use it, most people won't pay that for a rifle that has no more visual appeal than one costing 1/16 as much.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Isnt the Legend stock exclusive to Echols? If so do you know the cost of making molds, time working with the syntheitc stock manufacturer, the minimum order size, up front deposit, etc...

I do, its not cheap. With exlusivity comes higher cost.

I heard through the grapevine the mold is $4,000. That sounded low to me as I've also been told what adding a new piece of plastic at Magpul costs and that was a number that blew my mind.

The Echols stock is a bargain at the price he sells it for. I just wish he would do them for short actions as well.

Pretty sure that number is $20k.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Isnt the Legend stock exclusive to Echols? If so do you know the cost of making molds, time working with the syntheitc stock manufacturer, the minimum order size, up front deposit, etc...

I do, its not cheap. With exlusivity comes higher cost.

I heard through the grapevine the mold is $4,000. That sounded low to me as I've also been told what adding a new piece of plastic at Magpul costs and that was a number that blew my mind.

The Echols stock is a bargain at the price he sells it for. I just wish he would do them for short actions as well.

Pretty sure that number is $20k.

Magpuls mold is probably not just a single mold. With the volume they make I'm sure they have a mold that makes many multiples of parts at the same time.

I was referring to McMillan.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

THE FOLKS WHO BUY ECHOLS RIFLES USE THEM. You can't say that about many other rifles in that price bracket.

Well, , if they're not going to use it, most people won't pay that for a rifle that has no more visual appeal than one costing 1/16 as much.

that pretty much summs up this entire thread

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and most folks don't use their rifles enough to discern a mundane one from a great one

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

THE FOLKS WHO BUY ECHOLS RIFLES USE THEM. You can't say that about many other rifles in that price bracket.

Well, , if they're not going to use it, most people won't pay that for a rifle that has no more visual appeal than one costing 1/16 as much.

that pretty much summs up this entire thread

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and most folks don't use their rifles enough to discern a mundane one from a great one

Really the truth of the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by montea6b:
... How do you quantify the true worth of that skilled labor?

I really can't think of any other product that you could take an off the shelf version, rework it, and charge over ten times the original price without any actual change in function or appearance. Personally if I were to put anywhere close to that kind of money towards a custom rifle I sure as hell wouldn't want it to look like it came off the vertical rifle rotiserie at Walmart.

Nevermind what all has gone into the function of the rifle... but you really can't see any difference in appearance?

My '98 corolla has 4 rubber tires, and I'll be damned if I can see the difference between it and a Mercedes with 4 rubber tires.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralphie:
Nevermind what all has gone into the function of the rifle... but you really can't see any difference in appearance?

My '98 corolla has 4 rubber tires, and I'll be damned if I can see the difference between it and a Mercedes with 4 rubber tires.

That's kind of a dumb comparision... A Corolla and a Mercedes are two different cars.

Can you tell the difference between a stock Mercedes and Mercedes with a balanced and blueprinted engine, custom exhaust, modified transmission and rear end, plus an upgraded stereo?

Maybe if you drove it...

That would be a more equivalent example.

The Echols legend is not a bad looking rifle, but it looks just exactly like a Winchester model 70 in a synthetic stock.

Which, fundamentally, it is...

So the answer is no. Going strictly on photos because I have never handled one up close, I cannot tell the difference between an Echols Legend and a Winchester model 70 in a synthetic stock.

Please share with me the visual features you use to distinguish the two.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by Ralphie:
Nevermind what all has gone into the function of the rifle... but you really can't see any difference in appearance?

My '98 corolla has 4 rubber tires, and I'll be damned if I can see the difference between it and a Mercedes with 4 rubber tires.

That's kind of a dumb comparision... A Corolla and a Mercedes are two different cars.

Can you tell the difference between a stock Mercedes and Mercedes with a balanced and blueprinted engine, custom exhaust, modified transmission and rear end, plus an upgraded stereo?

Maybe if you drove it...

That would be a more equivalent example.

The Echols legend is not a bad looking rifle, but it looks just exactly like a Winchester model 70 in a synthetic stock.

Which, fundamentally, it is...

So the answer is no. Going strictly on photos because I have never handled one up close, I cannot tell the difference between an Echols Legend and a Winchester model 70 in a synthetic stock.

Please share with me the visual features you use to distinguish the two.

I'm sorry you can't see them. They are visible from across the room.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I'm sorry you can't see them. They are visible from across the room.

My post above may have come across as mildly flippant, but I honestly don't know. The rifle in the photo at the beginning of this thread even looks like it has Weaver mounts to me.

Seriously, what visually distinguishes this particular rifle?

Please answer the question minus the sarcasm.

Or maybe your sarcasm is intended to mean that you agree there is no visual difference...

Sorry if I sound defensive.

The hours involved in hand polishing all the metal work would be one. Then the way everything fits together. Sorry I wish I could describe it better.

When you do get one in your hands the differences in appearance alone will jump out at you.

And that is even before you start shooting and hunting with one.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralphie:
The hours involved in hand polishing all the metal work would be one. Then the way everything fits together. Sorry I wish I could describe it better.

When you do get one in your hands the differences in appearance alone will jump out at you.

And that is even before you start shooting and hunting with one.

I believe you, but there aren't a lot of them on the racks of local gunshops to allow a common man like me to assess them fully...

quote:

When you do get one in your hands the differences in appearance alone will jump out at you.

I agree. There is nothing left untouched on the rifle, no surface that isn't how Darcy and Brian want it and nothing taken for granted in regards to anything. I talked with Darcy a lot at SCI last year and we went over the whole kit and kaboodle. A WInchester in a synthetic stock it isn't, by far.

And I know this if about the Legend, but I also had a chance to handle one of his 505's and it was breathtaking. Truly above and beyond.

quote:

but there aren't a lot of them on the racks of local gunshops

There is a reason for that.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

I heard through the grapevine the mold is $4,000. That sounded low to me as I've also been told what adding a new piece of plastic at Magpul costs and that was a number that blew my mind.

The Echols stock is a bargain at the price he sells it for. I just wish he would do them for short actions as well.

IIRC,
Echols has his Legend stocks inletted to some degree by McMillan, before delivery to his shop.
When ordering with Echols you specify what bottom metal etc, you intend to use.
I would imagine that McMillan could inlet for long or short action M70, like they do with their FW pattern.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

... there aren't a lot of them on the racks of local gunshops to allow a common man like me to assess them fully...

People who have enough serious interest in something, will make the effort to seek it out.

One visit to Reno and a person will get to see Echols & Co.,Dave Miller,Hoenig,H&H,Hartmann Weiss,Ralf Martini, etc

If such a visit is deemed not worth the effort or to expensive, then it likely indicates that one is not keen enough on the product,
or a person is simply not in the financal bracket to afford such.

A visit to Reno can really help answer a lot of a persons questions about the products being offered from the reputable bespoke quality
custom rifle makers.

I hope this is my final comment on this thread. (as do others I'm sure...)

I may have referred to myself as common, because I consider myself to be a down-to-earth practical everyday guy, but that doesn't imply that I can't afford a nice custom rifle. This is not an issue of sour grapes...

I'm not rich, (unless compared to the rest of the world) but I could pay cash tomorrow for just about any custom rifle I wanted. I am "in the financial bracket to afford such", however, given how often, where, and what I hunt, it wouldn't be prudent to do so.

Let me offer an alternative as to why someone may not go to Reno: I have a keen interest in custom rifles, but I don't want to buy them, I want to make them. I am a do-it-yourselfer - my interest is not in being the client of a top end maker, but in producing custom rifles for myself that I know inside out, can shoot confidently, and be proud to carry.

Anybody can be a customer, but here is a pride in ownership in using something you've created yourself that can't be matched by throwing money at someone else to do the work for you. Even if the quality is only a portion of what a top builder could accomplish. I have been happy with my work so far, to me my rifles look great, function reliably, and shoot just fine. If I wanted to commission a custom rifle I could and would seek it out.

montea, If you like to build rifles then you of all people would certainly enjoy actually seeing what D'Arcy does to produce his rifles






and with wood he is truely a master as well

Able to afford one or not, its clear you have no interest in owning or paying for a rifle such as a Legend.
Its highly unlikely a person will ever see an Echols rifle on their local gunshop shelf,
SO if one really wants to see one, there are select places you can view one.
But if ones primary desire is only to be a 'tire kicker' when viewing an Echols,
its most likely that person would not spend the time and effort to go inspect a Legend rifle.

I have constructed my own fishing poles and stocked my own rifles with syn. stocks,
there is definitely a certain amount of personal satisfaction in that,
but it is a different satisfaction to having fishing poles and rifles constructed in a definitely better quality way,
that I actually appreciate much more than my own [only reasonable] quality of work.

I gather Echols gets some personal satisfaction in that he has designed and built the prototype the Legend is based on.

If I had an uncut high grade diamond, the intelligent thing to do would be to have the high grade diamond cutters in Antwerp,
cut the stone for me. Me trying to it do it myself might give some personal satisfaction, but in all reality would be considered
detrimental to the stone. That is all based on the proviso that one believes a high grade stone deserves the best grade cut.

I guess some individuals could eventually get skilled and dedicated enough to build a rifle [just for themselves] to the quality of an Echols,
and they would be able to do it at much less cost.
But if they had to produce the same rifle to sell- in order to make a viable profit after covering all the wages,overheads,absorbed losses, etc,
the price would no longer be so low.

quote:

I have constructed my own fishing poles and stocked my own rifles with syn. stocks,

Custom built rifles can be compared with cars that peg different sections of the market - like a Toyota, a Mercedes and a Rolls Royce to name just 3.

Custom built rifles are generally made with more care and precision than mass produced factory rifles at a certain price point. However they come at a premium over factory rifles and it invariably revolves around the hunters budget.

We all place different values on what we buy for a particular purpose. That means we have a choice how much we want to spend.

When a person has enough skill to make his own, we need to respect it, even if it does not compare with a LEGEND rifle. We can't be all master builders.

Trax let us see one of your own creations - pictures speak louder than words.

Pieter die 4de

Is ownership of an Echols Legend a necessary and sufficient condition for owning an absolutely reliable rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by dfcjr:
Is ownership of an Echols Legend a necessary and sufficient condition for owning an absolutely reliable rifle?

No, many build rifles every bit as reliable. Some don't.

Only the buyer can decide for himself if the cost of the product is justified.

If all I want is reliability I can buy a Toyota Corolla.
IF I want reliability with something more, I buy a Toyota Lexus.

A Porsche GT3, has natural suede leather on the doors,...all for $140,000.

A Porsche GT3 Cup, has carbonfibre doors ,....................all for $250,000.

Silly.

I have a custom M70 stainless in 338 WM, with a Lilja barrel, 12" twist rate, Custom trigger, and an Echols McMillan stock to fit it. I've owned the rifle for years and it's a tried and true shooter - very reliable barreled action in all respects. I went the restock it a few years back and never finished.

It's an easy one to finish, and I'll sell it for $2900.

If interested, ask for pictures by email.

If you really want bragging rights, I'll take $4,000 for the package.

KB

quote:

Trax let us see one of your own creations - pictures speak louder than words.

Trax let us see some of your beauties and let us forget the use of words to describe them by comparing them with cars. Let us see the real goods.

Pieter die 4de.