What syn. 'beauties'?
I've already told you my own work was only reasonable.
Some Devcon slushed into a syn stock.... factory barrelled action inserted.
.....trim the excess, ...slap on some paint,.. and go hunting.

Does that average joe work shit really turn you on?

I am not going to go waste my time trying to find the 20+yr old photographs.
Most of the plethora of homeyard syn. stock installation jobs on 24hr campfire, are better than mine.

My syn stocked rifle of 20+ yrs ago, was reliable,accurate and definitely lighter,
which was all that mattered to me at the time.

However, if you are interested in top-shelf custom work,
then heres the finished product of the first M98 workhorse I had commissioned in the 90s:

D'Arcy is without a doubt one of the finest smiths in the world today..If one thinks his price is too high, then your not required buy it, and the owner has every right to price it...

I would rather pay D'Arcy $10,000 for one of his rifles than buy a painting on a piece of cheap canvas with oil paint stuck on it for twice to fifty times that amount??..I don't own a D'Arcy rifle, wish I did.

Bottom line is D'Arcy has no trouble selling his rifles, and can't even keep up with demand. His wood stock work is also awesome.

This is just another one of those "what constitutes value" threads.

Between the plastic stock and the M70 factory action the rifle has limited appeal at that price. Anyone that is willing to spend that kind of money can buy a rifle built to his own checklist.

After all the arguing here did anyone here actually think the rifle was worth his money by writing a check for it?

I have quite a few custom rifles. That being said the rifle being discussed is very over priced imho. The poor guy selling the rifle either could not shoot it very well or it was possibly below the accuracy requirement that I hold custom rifles to. The 416 Rigby being built now had a specific reamers made to my Smiths requirements (making dies as well. It will still be able to shoot factory but I want a BR level African rifle lol. Not many people have those so might as well be different!!

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I have quite a few custom rifles. That being said the rifle being discussed is very over priced imho. The poor guy selling the rifle either could not shoot it very well or it was possibly below the accuracy requirement that I hold custom rifles to. The 416 Rigby being built now had a specific reamers made to my Smiths requirements (making dies as well. It will still be able to shoot factory but I want a BR level African rifle lol. Not many people have those so might as well be different!!

The "poor guy" selling that rifle is just fine and neither two of your absolute labels fit. Your avatar is self applicable in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
However, if you are interested in top-shelf custom work,
then heres the finished product of the first M98 workhorse I had commissioned in the 90s:

Nice rifle! What kind of scope bases are those?

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I have quite a few custom rifles. That being said the rifle being discussed is very over priced imho. The poor guy selling the rifle either could not shoot it very well or it was possibly below the accuracy requirement that I hold custom rifles to. The 416 Rigby being built now had a specific reamers made to my Smiths requirements (making dies as well. It will still be able to shoot factory but I want a BR level African rifle lol. Not many people have those so might as well be different!!

The "poor guy" selling that rifle is just fine and neither two of your absolute labels fit. Your avatar is self applicable in this case.

Don't get mad at me for just telling the truth. I think you are getting cabin fever..

Hi Gents,

The rifle in question is mine. I delivered it to a distingushed gentleman from Virginia last week, so it is no longer available. He seemed to know his way around a fine rifle.

As far as accuracy goes, it shoots 350 grain Barnes into .600 in 416 and several 338 bullets into .200 to .300". That is definitely minute of buffalo in my world.

DArcy is building me two more rifles as we speak, so that should tell you what I think of his product. And I have owned rifles by some very fine gunmakers.

Best Wishes,

Chet

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I have quite a few custom rifles. That being said the rifle being discussed is very over priced imho. The poor guy selling the rifle either could not shoot it very well or it was possibly below the accuracy requirement that I hold custom rifles to. The 416 Rigby being built now had a specific reamers made to my Smiths requirements (making dies as well. It will still be able to shoot factory but I want a BR level African rifle lol. Not many people have those so might as well be different!!

The "poor guy" selling that rifle is just fine and neither two of your absolute labels fit. Your avatar is self applicable in this case.

Don't get mad at me for just telling the truth. I think you are getting cabin fever..

You were saying?

quote:

Originally posted by Chet:
Hi Gents,

The rifle in question is mine. I delivered it to a distingushed gentleman from Virginia last week, so it is no longer available. He seemed to know his way around a fine rifle.

As far as accuracy goes, it shoots 350 grain Barnes into .600 in 416 and several 338 bullets into .200 to .300". That is definitely minute of buffalo in my world.

DArcy is building me two more rifles as we speak, so that should tell you what I think of his product. And I have owned rifles by some very fine gunmakers.

Best Wishes,

Chet

Thanks Chet The natives were getting restless!

To each their own I suppose. There won't be cash for an Echold Legend soon, but it would be my ultimate rifle. I've handled and inspected one and they are special. There are quality components, some custom and well designed in there and then there is time, lots of it.

Maybe the guys who poo poo the feeding issue want to try what is in this video and report back. I'm not saying you don't have rifles that can do that, but I'd guess it is not most of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAr7d3acMYo

Maybe you wil largue that you don't need this, or that you are a "traditionalist" who prefers to risk his life as the men of yore did with round nose solids, but these are the features that for some people add up to the price tag.

Is it justified? Wow, I don't know, each man should decide for himself...

I've watched that video a number of times and I shake my head in excitement, admiration.

I think it should be a standard for anyone buying a DG rifle. Just send it to Rem., Win., CZ, custom makers, etc and ask for their proof of quality!

Chet, good for you! Tell us more about your Echols order. Caliber, legend / classic??

Bryan

Two Legends. One in 30-06 and one in 375 H&H. The 375 will be a sporter weight rifle that will weigh about 8.5 pounds scoped. It will have all of the Classic metalwork components, as I am going to have DArcy make a wood stock for it down the road. 23 inch Krieger barrels on both.

DArcy emailed me yesterday and the 375 barrel has arrived, so it won't be long on that rifle now.

Best,

Chet

I just love a happy ending! very best

Great calibre's and great rifles.


Good luck and enjoy!


Bryan

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAr7d3acMYo

Maybe you wil largue that you don't need this, or that you are a "traditionalist" who prefers to risk his life as the men of yore did with round nose solids,
but these are the features that for some people add up to the price tag.

Not every bolt rifle Echols & Co. builds is cable of reliably feeding the FN solid design thats preferred by some.

IIRC,
The Echols shop built two .505cal magnum mauser rigs, and D'Arcy worked with Barnes bullets to develop a 525gn Round Nose solid.
I believe the FN solid proved problematic to get to feed [bcause of the size of FN meplat & the limited depth of the feed ramp].

A RN that feeds is much more useful than a FN that don't.....and the owners both took elephant using the 525gn RN.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Not every bolt rifle Echols & Co. builds is cable of reliably feeding the FN solid design thats preferred by some.

True, and for very good reasons

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
Maybe the guys who poo poo the feeding issue want to try what is in this video and report back. I'm not saying you don't have rifles that can do that, but I'd guess it is not most of them.

Cool video. However, I would expect any rifle to do this. Is that asking too much? Any rifle that doesn't feed is crap.

So, I took you up on your challenge and my $80 VZ-24 did the same thing as the rifle in the video.

Three times.

Just as fast as I could work it.

How many more times should I do this to be confident that it feeds 100% reliably? How many of my other rifles should I try this on to determine that "most" of them do this too?

quote:

Maybe you will argue that you don't need this...

No, I will argue that you DO need this! (see first point above)

My point is that I don't think it should take fifteen thousand dollars to get there... (if it ain't broke don't fix it)

quote:

...these are the features that for some people add up to the price tag.

Sure, if you are building an exotic chambering and want to shoot FN solids at dangerous game. It's gonna take some expensive tinkering, I get that. (and even then you may still have some feeding problems according to earlier posts...)

However, the price tag on a Legend in a "standard" caliber deer rifle is the same... right?

If my deer rifle does the same thing without any mods whatsoever then no, it does not add up to the price tag of a Legend. Not for me anyhow.

quote:

Is it justified? Wow, I don't know, each man should decide for himself...

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

Again, not slamming Echol's rifles or the people who are willing to pay for the extra attention to detail, just have yet to see any real data posted on factory Winchester M70 reliability, and/or accuracy vs the Echols Legend.

Anything outside of factual, measurable, & tested performance measures is nothing more than feel-good opinion.

P.S. As I was typing this I had "MeTV" on in the background... "The Rifleman" opening scene came up, and Chuck Connors just jacked approx 12 rounds through his M92 without a jam! Fitting...

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

If my deer rifle does the same thing without any mods whatsoever then no, it does not add up to the price tag of a Legend.
Not for me anyhow.

and some are content with a cheap [Chinese movement] Timex automatic...while some are much more content with a Swiss Rolex automatic.
Generally speaking they both tell the time.

One can also buy the inexpensive Talley lightweight alloy [integral ring & base],
but those with the money might better appreciate and enjoy having the Echols proprietary scope mounting system.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

Anything outside of factual, measurable, & tested performance measures is nothing more than feel-good opinion.

and for a personal 'feel good' exercise,some people spend several extra $000s for ultra fancy exhib.walnut & impeccable stocking, engraving,gold inlay,etc ....none of which really improve reliability or accuracy
nor do they contribute to killing ones Elk,Lion or Sheep any more effectively, than a much less fancy & less costly rifle,
such as a Legend.

Happy New Year Trax!

quote:

and for a personal 'feel good' exercise, some people spend several extra $000s for ultra fancy exhib.walnut & impeccable stocking, engraving,gold inlay,etc ....none of which really improve reliability or accuracy, nor do they contribute to killing ones Elk, Lion or Sheep any more effectively, than a much less fancy & less costly rifle, such as a Legend.

Why are you dragging this point out? Nobody has ever claimed that cosmetic enhancements contribute to killing more effectively...

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
...some are much more content with a Swiss Rolex automatic.

...those with the money might better appreciate and enjoy having the Echols proprietary scope mounting system.

Hmmm... "content", "appreciate", "enjoy"... Be careful, those sound a lot like feel-good words that have nothing to do with killing more effectively!

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Nice rifle! What kind of scope bases are those?

Well to help get a rifle looking so 'nice', one needs to spend the 1000+ odd dollars for the custom scratch built bases
and the custom jig truing of the rings.[ + purchase price of rings]
> but of course if all ones wants is functionality, a person can instead opt for a basic Conetrol supplied two-piece base and rings,
all for $140 in total, and then simply go attach it directly to ones factory rifle.
Conetrol even offer a 'custum' grade version of same for $200 total,.. but my idea of what constitutes custom, is somewhat different.
..and is thus priced accordingly to the time & effort involved to achieve such result.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Hmmm... "content", "appreciate", "enjoy"... Be careful, those sound a lot like feel-good words that have nothing to do with killing more effectively!

different people get a 'feel good' sensation from different things and for different reasons.

Some 'appreciate' the quality and superior strength of the Echols proprietary scope mount.
People become 'content' [peace of mind] knowing that the Echols mount won't fail them in the field,
whereas others may be wired differently and be more 'content' knowing that they saved a bundle$$
by purchasing the cheap alloy Talleys instead....each to his own I suppose.

some simply 'appreciate' the look of expensive fancy walnut even though it offers no practical improvement advantage over
much less expensive wood or even Syn.
Some people 'appreciate' that a Syn stock will do everything they need in a hunting rifle, without the fuss & expense of walnut.

Some people 'enjoy' spending their money on practical improvements to their rifle,[adding reliability & strength to their rifle]
whereas others may instead 'enjoy' spending the same amount [or more] on superfluous eye candy options.

Here is a question.

Has anybody that bought an Echols rifle had ANY problems with it?

Any little problem at all?

I recall a Legend Rifle having its stock break in half during a hard fall.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...031042221#2031042221

Walnut stocks snap just the same, but I know one could have the syn. stock replaced
and the rifle back in action, well before what it would take to restock a walnut version.

quote:

originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
It is well known that we have McMillan make our Legend stocks. This will of course continue as I feel they make the finest synthetic stocks
available on the market today. McMillan has an unconditional guarantee for any breakage on their products and are already making a
replacement. Regardless of the cause or circumstances of the accident D'Arcy Echols & Company will replace the broken stock and do all the
refurbish work to bring the rifle back to 100% at our expense.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
different people get a 'feel good' sensation from different things and for different reasons.

Some 'appreciate' the quality and superior strength of the Echols proprietary scope mount.
People become 'content' [peace of mind] knowing that the Echols mount won't fail them in the field,
whereas others may be wired differently and be more 'content' knowing that they saved a bundle$$
by purchasing the cheap alloy Talleys instead....each to his own I suppose.

some simply 'appreciate' the look of expensive fancy walnut even though it offers no practical improvement advantage over
much less expensive wood or even Syn.
Some people 'appreciate' that a Syn stock will do everything they need in a hunting rifle, without the fuss & expense of walnut.

Some people 'enjoy' spending their money on practical improvements to their rifle,[adding reliability & strength to their rifle]
whereas others may instead 'enjoy' spending the same amount [or more] on superfluous eye candy options.

Well said, I totally agree.

Y'all got to understand what sort of person you are talking to.

A man who does not appreciate the pride in ownership of a well built rifle is beyond hope...

For all you guys who appreciated the fiberglass kits that made VW Beetles look like Rolls Royces , I just learned that D'Arcy now has a Legend pattern stock for the RH BDL Remington 700 on it's way to McMillan to have a mold made. It will have the same shadow line cheek piece, cast off at the toe and heel, high scope comb, checkered, etc. as the Model 70 Legend stock but is made specifically for the grip geometry of the 700. Hopefully the mold should be done 4 months
The stock should also be useable on the Borden Defiance, Aztec Arms and any of the other similar Remington clones with Remington style tangs.

I would have much preferred to hear that Echols is having moulded a Legend pattern stock for the M98.

Me too, but if you had to put your name on a product that the average Bubba gun plumber will work on -- and then bad mouth all over this and every other forum when it doesn't shoot as good as it should, which action would you choose ?

I don't have anything against a Legend pattern being available for the 700 action,
Its great that R700 owners will be able to have a Legend pattern Mcmillan stock,
bUt I am disappointed that it aint avail for M98.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
I don't have anything against a Legend pattern being available for the 700 action,
Its great that R700 owners will be able to have a Legend pattern Mcmillan stock,
bUt I am disappointed that it aint avail for M98.

Let's assume for a moment we are going to change the M70 so it's like the M98.

1) Grind the M70 recoil lug down to less than half its depth.

2) Move the resulting tiny recoil lug back so we halve the amount of stock material behind the new tiny lug.

3)Grind aroung the the tang area so as to virtually eliminate all bedding area.

4) Grind away the mid secton of the action so as to weakent it.

Perhaps I left a few things out in the conversion

Best regards

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
I don't have anything against a Legend pattern being available for the 700 action,
Its great that R700 owners will be able to have a Legend pattern Mcmillan stock,
bUt I am disappointed that it aint avail for M98.

Let's assume for a moment we are going to change the M70 so it's like the M98.

1) Grind the M70 recoil lug down to less than half its depth.

2) Move the resulting tiny recoil lug back so we halve the amount of stock material behind the new tiny lug.

3)Grind aroung the the tang area so as to virtually eliminate all bedding area.

4) Grind away the mid secton of the action so as to weakent it.

Perhaps I left a few things out in the conversion

Best regards

Mike

Interesting points, but I don't see how they correlate to Trax's comment.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
This is pretty cool too!
http://youtu.be/sAr7d3acMYo

That is all kinds of impressive.

I have never heard so much BS, there is nothinng wrong with the model 98 Mauser its the best bolt gun ever designed..Nor do I see anything wrong with the Win. mod. 70 other than the metal is so hard it will come apart like a handgrndade if you over load it, but over loading is people error for sure...A Mauser by the way will bulge, maybe even split but it does not come apart in sharpnel...

I have and like both but lean just a tad to the Mauser..

Wood vs plastic, another worthless arguement without much merit..wood can break, plastic can break, wood can warp if not cured properly and plastic will melt if too close to the fire in a tent...Both work fine for most of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
... the Win. mod. 70 other than the metal is so hard it will come apart like a handgrndade if you over load it,
but over loading is people error for sure.
..A Mauser by the way will bulge, maybe even split but it does not come apart in sharpnel...

Irregular-poor quality heat treat in orig. Pre64-M70 can be somewhat rectified.
and if one puts a crazily wrong load in an M98,[as one might in a hard brittle pre64],
BOTH can send parts and fragments of the action flying, that can seriously harm a person.


Ask Mr.Echols how a magnum Oberndorf behaved when overloaded with 4064 instead of 7828....

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:

"..it blew the action to bits, sent the barrel down range, turned the scope into a satellite and drove the bolt through the driver side door of a new Ford pick up. The client was OK however the action did not bend and "protect" the shooter from certain doom."

This is not mine, but a recently finished LH 404 Jeffery built on a Model 70 action by D'Arcy Echols.

We have different tastes in foreend shapes but that is a gorgeous piece of work.

All that talk on another area of the forum- about the 'thumb cut' on a mauser being so helpful for loading when hunting,

Yet I have yet to see an Echols DG rifle [scoped or otherwise], that has had a thumb cut feature added.

In fact, I hardly see any smith or bespoke rifle shop, adding a thumb cut to DG rifles....be it an M70,
CZ,Springfield,..or new magnum mauser...In overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, the solid left wall is retained.
or I should say, it be mighty rare for a client to insist/request a 'thumbCut' feature be added.

Even the Brevex based .505cal which had a thumbnut added,
I cannot say for sure it was done for practical loading reasons,
it could well have been simply for aesthetic purposes, i.e; to make the rifle look more 'period'.

Mauser itself went to a solid left wall on its magnum mauser actions from about 1930.

Duane Wiebe added one to a GMA action for a guy here IIRC.

The Echols scope bases (and rear sight) are the most beautiful of their kind that I have ever seen. Wish he sold them separately or licensed them to a machine shop.

RyanB,
it is my understanding that Mr.Echols has his rings [as well as replacement M98 bolt release & Burgess style bottom metal]
manufactured by an outside machine shop. [D'Arcy gives credit to that shop]

However there is still much detailed-precise work to be done in the Echols shop to have the rings finished and properly fitted to the trued action.

No one seems to combine traditional bespoke rifle building with modern practical innovation, as well as the Echols or Miller shop does.

Part of the reason for the size of forend on Echols Classics,could be that it needs to accommodate the installation of the aluminium stabilising beam.

He buys blanks from somewhere I know, and mentions talking to a college machining program about making them for sale but I don't know if that was finished rings or blanks.

Of all of the rifle makers working in the US today Echols is the one that I find most interesting.