Hi

After a couple years reading about double rifles and such i came to realize people mostly disagree what a technically perfect double should be.
Lets give it a try and imagine the mechanical and technical perfection. Reliability and longevity are the key. Everything is hypothetical, and presumes good craftsmanship nad properly made.

1. Action

Webley long bar screw grip sxs (or maybe a back action sidelock?)

Based on all the action topics, these seem to get the most votes. Long bar because barrels need to be open less for extraction,and the longer the action bar the stronger it is. Screw grip because it will last longest before it goes off face. Gold plated internals, for rust prevention.

2. Stock

English style splinter stock. as I understand designed to reduce felt recoil and (splinter) give good regulation. Stock design is today being copied by Heym and Blaser (a bit). Dense wood, strength over figure type. Wood a bit proud of metal. Extended trigger guard, and tang extended over comb.Pancake cheekpiece for recoil. New firing pin in pistol grip.

3. Intercepting sear - a must

4. Chopper lump barrels - Best strenth to weight ratio. Theoretically barrels closer together and easier to regulate

5. Front sight with flip ivory tip for low light conditions

6. Quarter rib 1 standing, 2 folding express sights, shallow V type

7. Articulated front trigger

8. Non auto safety

9. Southgate ejectors.

Read somewhere southgate are the most reliable type opposed to Baker. something to do with partial eject even if spring breaks. Comments please, since I dont know much about this subject. Reliability is key.

10. Bolstered Action

11. Cocking indicators

12. Stocked to the fences

13. Bushed firing pins

15. Double triggers

Interesting (and good) list. Fun to check off rifles I own and have owned. I prefer an auto safety as my first boxlock double had one and I learned to shoot and handle a double with this feature.
Should you mention engraving, oval in the stock, type of forend release, type of anti recoil heel plate, barrel length, balance, hammerless or not, top lever vs. under lever, sidelock vs. boxlock? Last of all, what would be your favorite maker?
Cheers,
Cal

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zeljko:

1. Action

Webley long bar screw grip sxs (or maybe a back action sidelock?)

Based on all the action topics, these seem to get the most votes. Long bar because barrels need to be open less for extraction,and the longer the action bar the stronger it is. Screw grip because it will last longest before it goes off face.

Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

2. Stock

English style splinter stock. as I understand designed to reduce felt recoil and (splinter) give good regulation. Stock design is today being copied by Heym and Blaser (a bit).

Blaser mentioned in the same sentence as English anything, and especially English double rifle stock design??!! Blasphemy!!!

Interesting thread but the merits of all these features have been discussed here ad nauseum; it all comes down to what you like and want; I will pass on this one. thanks.

I suppose in a list such as this the metal used for the action body should be given mention. Appreantly S7 has a phenomenal tensile strength. Perhaps the metullargists amongst us can give a better description of its qualities? I think it can be rust blued (personally I prefer the looks of colour casing but we are talking about being technically perfect here).

How about platinum front sight bead and rear sight "triangle". I owned a Mauser A-Type with platinum inserts and it stood out the best against game.

While we are at it, how about a third fastener such as a Westley Richards style dolls head, or perhaps Greener style cross bolt. The Greener system does seem to leave the opening of the chambers unencumbered for a faster, fumble free reload. Never shot one though so have nothing to base that comment on.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

I guess we'll see how Butch's actions stand up in 110 years. My 110 year old Webley actioned Army Navy is dead on face.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

I guess we'll see how Butch's actions stand up in 110 years. My 110 year old Webley actioned Army Navy is dead on face.

Jim,

This discussion was a result of admiring Butch's new long bar action, not a conversation degrading other makes. He simply stated that long bar / short bar was not a real issue in terms of strength considering NE cartridges. Or at least, that is what I understood him to say. Maybe he will pop in here and put it straight if I've misrepresented his comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

I guess we'll see how Butch's actions stand up in 110 years. My 110 year old Webley actioned Army Navy is dead on face.

.........And I have a 121 yr old Westley Richards 500/450 with an Anson & Deeley action with Deeley selective ejectors and a doll's head barred third fastener that is DEAD ON FACE as well, and was sold out of the London store in 1892.

It is simply a matter of geometry! Butch is right, the longer the bar the easier it is to bend assuming both short and long are the same shape and crosssection size with length being the only difference.

The fact is the SHAPE is more important to strength than the length assuming both are the same alloy. The reason the long bar is desirable is because, as has already been stated, the rifle with the long bar have a shallower opening for quick ejection and re-load.

The strength is in the shape and thickness of the bar, and the under locks, and third fastener design as in screw grip!

.......................................................................

I am asking opinions why is something mechanically better then other.

Not a matter of personal preference. Extractors or ejectors are a personal choice. I am not asking opinions which to choose but rather if ejectors are chosen(example) are Southgate or Baker more reliable and why?

As the matter of long vs short bar i think mr. Todd Williams and mr. Mac are right in regards of the strenth of the bar itself. Longer is weaker. But in regards of long bar having a longer, -I dont know how to say it in english properly- torque momentum, because the barrels when fired are trying to come apart, and the longer the distance between the hinge pin and fasteners are, the stronger the action. As for the bar itself, it is always strong enough, when bolstered.

I agree with mr. Williams Blaser is a dirty word. Everything that is negative in today's production in embodied in that name. The make-it-as-cheap-as-possible, and spend 90% of the retail on aggressive marketing, bribery, and law suits against any differing opinion. One of the true Toyotas in the gun industry, which doesnt have any zing or any trace of a soul. It doesnt look like something an enthusiast made.
However, they are trying to copy, same as Heym the design that reduces felt recoil, by straightening the stock, and bringing line of sight as close to the axis of the bores.

Mt. Matabele made some interesting points. I once came upon a site about blueing. And the one in highest regard was classic English slow rust blue process, I think by rigby, which produces deep blue color, something like Colt royal blue.
Also platinum sight is a great idea.
I have no idea about the steel,could somebody comment on that?

This thread is an idea, i saw numerous doubles I liked and admired, but none had all the features i think are the best in one product.

Here's your answer, a Krieghoff Big Five Classic chambered in 500/.416. The perfect gun in the most perfect double rifle caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

I guess we'll see how Butch's actions stand up in 110 years. My 110 year old Webley actioned Army Navy is dead on face.

Jim,

This discussion was a result of admiring Butch's new long bar action, not a conversation degrading other makes. He simply stated that long bar / short bar was not a real issue in terms of strength considering NE cartridges. Or at least, that is what I understood him to say. Maybe he will pop in here and put it straight if I've misrepresented his comments.

Todd,

I wasn't trying to bash Butch or his doubles or even compare them to the 'golden oldies". I guess I'm just drinking the koolaide of seeing it printed over and over again in many places about the Webley long bar screw grip being the most bullet proof design as proven over a true century.

I have friends that have Searcy's and love them. Certainly he has a great rep for servicing problems that have appeared as I understand it.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Interesting as at the SCI show, Butch Searcy explained to me that the Long Bar is actually WEAKER due to a longer mechanical lever. But he did agree that the primary reason for the long bar was fewer degrees of movement needed to open and expose the chambers.

I guess we'll see how Butch's actions stand up in 110 years. My 110 year old Webley actioned Army Navy is dead on face.

Jim,

This discussion was a result of admiring Butch's new long bar action, not a conversation degrading other makes. He simply stated that long bar / short bar was not a real issue in terms of strength considering NE cartridges. Or at least, that is what I understood him to say. Maybe he will pop in here and put it straight if I've misrepresented his comments.

Todd,

I wasn't trying to bash Butch or his doubles or even compare them to the 'golden oldies". I guess I'm just drinking the koolaide of seeing it printed over and over again in many places about the Webley long bar screw grip being the most bullet proof design as proven over a true century.

I have friends that have Searcy's and love them. Certainly he has a great rep for servicing problems that have appeared as I understand it.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Agreed, the screw grip is a great and strong lock up. Separate issue from the bar itself and leverage thereof. Regarding Zeljko and others quoting my comments, to be clear, I was speaking to Butch about his long bar action. Specifically, I asked him if he went to the long bar to gain strength in the action and he corrected me in saying that the increased leverage creates less strength than the standard bar. I was completely in the camp that the long bar makes it stronger. I'm simply repeating what Butch told me. Of course, if I'm quoting Butch incorrectly, I'll gladly stand corrected. Seems to me the lockup would be stronger as well. I'm always interested in learning something new, especially when the topic is double guns!

Cheers fellas!

The perfect double gun? Simple. Copy a pre-WW I rising-bite Rigby with 26-inch barrels or most any pre-1939 Webley and you're there.

In my book a perfect doublebarrel rifle startes with a Jones Underlever.Bolstred backactioned frame. From there the chopperlumbs barrels with dollshead ext.
Hammers vs hammerless, or ejector vs extractors just become just a matter of personal tast.

For me personally, the perfect double rifle is:

#1 First and foremost that it be a box lock side by side!

#2 It has to have two triggers!

#3 It must have a manual safety or a Krieghoff Combi cocker.

#4 Barrels can be 24 to 26 inch, no longer, as long as 1/3 of the total weight is between the hands.

#5 Barrel construction can be Chopper lump, Shoe lump, dove tail lump or mono-block, if done properly. My preference is Shoe-lump and I don’t consider chopper lump to be worth the cost! I have both and see absolutely no evident difference in the way the rifle gets the job done. I have one example of a dovetail barrels that is 121 yrs old and has presented no problem and that is considered the least desirable barrel joining method.

#6 Locking system would be three contacts, double under lugs, and either a dolls head, a Greener cross bolt, screw grip or rising bite. This has to be operated by either a top lever, or a snap latch. The Jones under lever is a strong lock-up but is much too slow to re-load if the rifle is to be used for dangerous game.

#7 Intercepting sears would be a safety plus!

#8 Sights should be one standing that is a wide “V” with a white center line on the back side cut for 50 yds. With two flip ups, the first one for 100 yds, and the other for 150 yds.

#9 If only one rifle for everything and several elephant were on the menu then the chambering would be 500NE , if Cape buffalo was the bad boy target then I could live with a 450/400NE 3 inch, or any of the .450s. On the non ele rifle I would like a quick detach scope facility, preferably claw mount, but any of the systems would do if it absolutely returned to every time!

#10 Selective ejectors, or extractors is a personal choice and I have both and can live with either exclusively. On dangerous game such as Lion or leopard I would prefer selective ejectors.

#11 The rifle must be fitted to ME!

All only my personal choice, and is not to down grade any system others would prefer.

.........................................................................

Zeljko:
------------------------------------------------
I agree with mr. Williams Blaser is a dirty word. Everything that is negative in today's production in embodied in that name. The make-it-as-cheap-as-possible, and spend 90% of the retail on aggressive marketing, bribery, and law suits against any differing opinion. One of the true Toyotas in the gun industry, which doesnt have any zing or any trace of a soul. It doesnt look like something an enthusiast made.
However, they are trying to copy, same as Heym the design that reduces felt recoil, by straightening the stock, and bringing line of sight as close to the axis of the bores.
------------------------------------------------
Tell me the story. Either here or in a PM. Interesting comments about the Blaser company and I know nothing of it. Just that the rifles are plain unattractive.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Zeljko:
I am asking opinions why is something mechanically better then other.

Not a matter of personal preference. Extractors or ejectors are a personal choice. I am not asking opinions which to choose but rather if ejectors are chosen(example) are Southgate or Baker more reliable and why?

As the matter of long vs short bar i think mr. Todd Williams and mr. Mac are right in regards of the strenth of the bar itself. Longer is weaker. But in regards of long bar having a longer, -I dont know how to say it in english properly- torque momentum, because the barrels when fired are trying to come apart, and the longer the distance between the hinge pin and fasteners are, the stronger the action. As for the bar itself, it is always strong enough, when bolstered.

I agree with mr. Williams Blaser is a dirty word. Everything that is negative in today's production in embodied in that name. The make-it-as-cheap-as-possible, and spend 90% of the retail on aggressive marketing, bribery, and law suits against any differing opinion. One of the true Toyotas in the gun industry, which doesnt have any zing or any trace of a soul. It doesnt look like something an enthusiast made.
However, they are trying to copy, same as Heym the design that reduces felt recoil, by straightening the stock, and bringing line of sight as close to the axis of the bores.

Mt. Matabele made some interesting points. I once came upon a site about blueing. And the one in highest regard was classic English slow rust blue process, I think by rigby, which produces deep blue color, something like Colt royal blue.
Also platinum sight is a great idea.
I have no idea about the steel,could somebody comment on that?

This thread is an idea, i saw numerous doubles I liked and admired, but none had all the features i think are the best in one product.

You may not like the aesthetics of a Blaser but I can tell you without hesitation that the tilting block system on the S2 is far and away the strongest break open rifle action ever made. An S2 simply cannot shoot "off face." In addition, all of the Blaser products shoot lights out, the S2 as well as the R93 and R8. The latter two are perhaps the best take down rifles in the world. If you are asking for opinions, that's mine.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
In addition, all of the Blaser products shoot lights out, the S2 as well as the R93 and R8.

Shooting a Blaser "lights out" is probably the best policy. A bag over the head would also help as they are just so ... ugly!

You may not like the aesthetics of a Blaser but I can tell you without hesitation that the tilting block system on the S2 is far and away the strongest break open rifle action ever made. An S2 simply cannot shoot "off face." In addition, all of the Blaser products shoot lights out, the S2 as well as the R93 and R8. The latter two are perhaps the best take down rifles in the world. If you are asking for opinions, that's mine. Dave
_______________________

Dave, You are 100% correct, especially regarding the S2 bolting system. However, most guys don't appreciate it, as they are blinded by the "aesthetics factor," the "ugly factor," giving those "factors" higher priority than other more important factors. The tilting block system has long ago, gone down in history as the strongest bolting system for tilting break open guns ever, regardless of present day American' opinions on this subject.

Todd and Dave I think you two disagree on this subject, and that is OK it's just a matter of choice! At least you both know that a double rifle is the only real rifle, and as Cal says "all others types are just passing fads"!
..............................


Like Todd there are many things I simply think are overly engineered and in some ways hinder efficiency of operation. However Dave is right about the strength of the rifle, and maybe the accuracy, I can't comment on that part.

It is no secret that I don't like Blaser double rifles for two reasons. # 1 is because the Blaser S-2 automatically de-cocks it's self if opened for any reason and must be manually re-cocked before it can be fired after. That is OK if the rifle is not used for close quarters follow-up on dangerous game, but damn dangerous if shots three and four are needed quickly.

#2 Though it is strong the tilt block requires a deep ledge over the chambers further restricting a fast reload and getting the rifle back in action at the worse possible moment. Of course that would enhance the adrenaline rush when a big lion with a hole punched in his gut was getting close in a charge!

So my objection is to the system designed by folks who have no idea what is involved in building a double rifle for use on dangerous game! The rifle would only be ugly if it had a combi-cocking system exactly like the Krieghoff double, and a traditional locking system. I could get by with the UGLY, but not the system and lock-up design.

I can't say about the accuracy so I'll take Daves word for that, and if that is true, and the shooter gets the first two shots in the right place and a re-load is not needed I suppose he would survive! if not welllllllllll.

............................................................... BYE

I would add a really dense stock with a proper grain flow-especially a very dense stock.You don`t want that POI changing.

Mac:

I understand your objections about the safety. However, having owned an S2, I can tell you that the "hood" over the action is not an impediment to loading. Because they don't have ejectors, the lock block swings open quite easily and they are easier to reload than many other doubles.

Looking at the connecicut shotgun's catalog. They stated that their doubles come with a right hand and a left hand twist barrel. Are there any advantages to this.

JD

Bissell 3rd rising bite. From Rigby almost a hundred years ago. Back in production. A hundred grand.

Also offered by Butch Searcy made in USA starting at $45,000.

Think of it as a Greener crossbolt done vertical.

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
You may not like the aesthetics of a Blaser but I can tell you without hesitation that the tilting block system on the S2 is far and away the strongest break open rifle action ever made. An S2 simply cannot shoot "off face." In addition, all of the Blaser products shoot lights out, the S2 as well as the R93 and R8. The latter two are perhaps the best take down rifles in the world. If you are asking for opinions, that's mine. Dave
_______________________

Dave, You are 100% correct, especially regarding the S2 bolting system. However, most guys don't appreciate it, as they are blinded by the "aesthetics factor," the "ugly factor," giving those "factors" higher priority than other more important factors. The tilting block system has long ago, gone down in history as the strongest bolting system for tilting break open guns ever, regardless of present day American' opinions on this subject.

Yeah but all that strength and supposed accuracy (that any Searcy, Heym of VC can match) ain't worth beans with a rifle with no ejectors and having use that hideous (and slow) cocking piece every time you reload. Pass...

Jorge:

I actually prefer extractor guns and have had a Blaser 470 S2 as well as two Krieghoffs so that tells you how I feel about the combi cocking device. IMHO, it is far safer than a standard safety and you don't need snap caps when you put it into the gun safe.

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
You may not like the aesthetics of a Blaser but I can tell you without hesitation that the tilting block system on the S2 is far and away the strongest break open rifle action ever made. An S2 simply cannot shoot "off face." In addition, all of the Blaser products shoot lights out, the S2 as well as the R93 and R8. The latter two are perhaps the best take down rifles in the world. If you are asking for opinions, that's mine. Dave
_______________________

Dave, You are 100% correct, especially regarding the S2 bolting system. However, most guys don't appreciate it, as they are blinded by the "aesthetics factor," the "ugly factor," giving those "factors" higher priority than other more important factors. The tilting block system has long ago, gone down in history as the strongest bolting system for tilting break open guns ever, regardless of present day American' opinions on this subject.

I will have to agree--I am not a fan of the barrels of a Blaser S2 but the 4 I have shot were the most accurate doubles I have ever shot. One 375 would make one ragged hole at 100 yards, and a certain 500/416 made busting baseball size rocks out at 75 yards easy...They are easy to put a scope on them...The barrels are just....ugly....

technically perfect...is alot different than aesthetically pleasing...

Here would be mine:

1. Tilt block action
2. scope mounting bracket
3. english style buttstock and splinter forend (in good ol turkish walnut--dense as hell)
4. Nitrate metal finish for wear resistance
5. Rigby style forend lever attachment
6. Monoblock barrels--only because I think it 7. would be easier to incorporate the scope mounting system
8. combi cocker--but the gun stays cocked between fire sessions and when broken open--(like a K-gun)
9. one standing rear sight, and a Westley Richards front sight...big white bead...

If I could build a modern big bore double...this is what I'd do...it may not be aesthetically perfect, but would come close to technically perfect to me!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Looking at the connecicut shotgun's catalog. They stated that their doubles come with a right hand and a left hand twist barrel. Are there any advantages to this.

JD

The short answer is "NO", and the long answer is also "NO" as well!

...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Jorge:

I actually prefer extractor guns and have had a Blaser 470 S2 as well as two Krieghoffs so that tells you how I feel about the combi cocking device. IMHO, it is far safer than a standard safety and you don't need snap caps when you put it into the gun safe.

Dave: there is a big difference between the Krieghoff's cocking lever and the Blaser's, or at least that is my understanding. The K gun's is a one time proposition whilst the Blaser must be cocked after every reload or am I wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Jorge:

I actually prefer extractor guns and have had a Blaser 470 S2 as well as two Krieghoffs so that tells you how I feel about the combi cocking device. IMHO, it is far safer than a standard safety and you don't need snap caps when you put it into the gun safe.

Dave: there is a big difference between the Krieghoff's cocking lever and the Blaser's, or at least that is my understanding. The K gun's is a one time proposition whilst the Blaser must be cocked after every reload or am I wrong?

Jorge,

You are 100% correct. The B-gun (sorry, I just can't continue saying the name on a DR forum) has an auto safety that resets everytime you open the action. The K-gun, in the Big 5 Classic versions, does not have an auto safety.

I will agree with Dave however in that I don't find extractors to be an issue. I like extractor guns as much as ejector guns. It just takes a different technique to reload them but extractor guns can be operated every bit as fast as ejectors. I did however, bow to Ken Buch's advice going forward with doubles to purchase ejectors, if for no other reason, resale value. I tried to argue that I don't sell my doubles, but I've proven myself wrong on that one with my 500NE Merkel and now the 577NE VC is up for sale as well.

I'm with you though on the B-guns. I'll pass.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Jorge:

I actually prefer extractor guns and have had a Blaser 470 S2 as well as two Krieghoffs so that tells you how I feel about the combi cocking device. IMHO, it is far safer than a standard safety and you don't need snap caps when you put it into the gun safe.

Dave: there is a big difference between the Krieghoff's cocking lever and the Blaser's, or at least that is my understanding. The K gun's is a one time proposition whilst the Blaser must be cocked after every reload or am I wrong?

jorge:

As Todd stated, you are correct about the Blaser. The S2 Has to be "re-cocked" each time you break the action. In that sense, it is kind of like a hammer gun. If you shoot an S2 enough, re-cocking it becomes second nature. I traded my S2 off on a K-gun in 500 NE. However, while I know I am in the minority, I really liked my S2 and I am a big fan of Blaser bolt rifles. I really likes K-guns as well and I had no problem with the combi cocking device either. If I ever hit the lottery, I am going straight to the nearest Krieghoff dealer to order a Krieghoff Gold Imperial in 500 Nitro Express. Here is the link to the gun of my dreams:

http://www.krieghoff.com/index...icle&id=74&Itemid=96

rib machined to accept red dot in a QR mount.

Heck, a Docter Optic sight should be included and adjusted to the regulated ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
If I ever hit the lottery, I am going straight to the nearest Krieghoff dealer to order a Krieghoff Gold Imperial in 500 Nitro Express. Here is the link to the gun of my dreams:

http://www.krieghoff.com/index...icle&id=74&Itemid=96

Dave I have to agree with the above choice. The K-gun is a well made rifle that is as safe as any rifle to carry with the chamber or chambers loaded!

Lots of intersting opinions, but might I suggest:
(humor intended)

-It will put 2 rounds in 3" @ 50 yards off a standing bench rest with serious solids.
-at least 4000 ft lbs energy
-always goes "boom" when the triggers (2) are pulled
-empty cases/loaded rounds are always extracted
-balance and handling like a fine English double shotgun
-non auto safe

Did I miss anything important ? (the question was
"technically perfect", not brand, pretty, locking system, decoration and so on)

Or to look at it another way: a CZ 375 H&H magnum Mauser bolt gun is as "technically perfect" as a cased Holland and Holland 375 H&H "bolt action magazine rifle" and what you save will pay for the Safari.

Dave, I have no issues with the K guns' cocking lever, however the Blaser I just can't get used to it. My friend's 470 is very hard to cock. Aside from aesthetics (I think German doubles are fugly), I have no issues with them, except maybe the Merkels. I've seen just too many of them double on people and their "engraving" looks like something out of Sesame Street.

Jorge I have to agree with the K-gun being entirely different from the B-gun in it’s operation. The last thing anyone needs is more things to do in a short time with something closing fast to do him harm. In many cases the first two shots on things like Cape buffalo, or lion in close cover do not stop the aggression. In that situation a double rifle that doesn’t re-cock it’s self when opened to re-load, or one with even an auto safety, is just not a good design. The K-gun once made ready to fire, if opened for any reason is, when closed again, is still ready to fire. As you know that is the big difference between the two rifles. Disregarding the looks, is a smart choice in this case. One is simply not well designed for close in encounters with big BITE-BACKS!

On the subject of Merkels being prone to doubling , that is a fallacy, pure and simple. I have two Merkel double rifles, and have owned several Merkel double shotguns, all made on the same actions, and in hundreds of rounds from all of them I have never doubled any of them except my Merkel 140E.1 9.3X74R rifle, and that was the first time I fired it, not expecting the amount of recoil let my finger slip off the front trigger a strum the back trigger. That was not the fault of the rifle but poor trigger engagement on my part on the front trigger. I’ve seen several people double several brands in just the same way. I have had two people double my 140-2.1 Merkel 470NE double when firing the back trigger first. That I don’t understand, because I often fire the back trigger first on that rifle and I have never doubled it no matter which trigger I pull first.

One poster told me that he found that if the hand is not planted well on the grip, while firing the back trigger first the recoil pushes the rifle back so the trigger finger pushes the front trigger forward violently, and causes it to rebound, firing the right barrel by inertia. He said this had been filmed and played back in slow motion to confirm this phenomenon. This could be solved with proper shooter hold, and/or a reticulated front trigger. intercepting sears would not stop this type of doubleing because the front trigger has been accidently PULLED for all practical purposes.

On the base two rifle models I agree that the so-called engraving is a little cartoonish, but has little to do with the working quality of Merkel double rifles. I have found them to be very accurate, and very reliable in operation. I don’t particularly like the new Merkels with the mono-block barrel joining, and ejectors. I much prefer the older Merkels with shoe-lump barrel sets, and manual safeties on the big bore rifles. My 9.3 Merkel came with selective ejectors, and an auto safety, which is now disengaged.

I took a real beating about the head and shoulders by an Aussie poster for not having disengaged that safety’s auto feature when I had recommended it so often to others. Since that rifle was not my dangerous game rifle, though it had taken two members of dangerous game, I had simply failed to disengage it, even after having the rifle for ten years. Procrastination is my only excuse, but he was right I should have done it when I first got the rifle. I still recommend against any automatic safety on a rifle used for dangerous game hunting, and absolutely would never use a box lock rifle that doesn’t re-cock it’s self after being opened for any reason. The S2 Blaser does not fit that bill the K-gun does! I have never understood anyone accepting a dangerous game rifle with an auto safety. It makes no more sense on a double rifle used for that purpose than a bolt rifle with an automatic safety. That would be a real fine system, a bolt rifle that re-set the safety every time the bolt was withdrawn!

Mac: I have PERSONALLY witnessed three Merkels at our range doubling. And all three had a dummy round in the left barrel just to ensure it was not a case of "strumming" the triggers. That and the PLASTIC grip cap and aforementioned engraving, I'll take a GOOD Sabatti and keep the change. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mac: I have PERSONALLY witnessed three Merkels at our range doubling. And all three had a dummy round in the left barrel just to ensure it was not a case of "strumming" the triggers. That and the PLASTIC grip cap and aforementioned engraving, I'll take a GOOD Sabatti and keep the change. jorge

May I ask how having dummy round in the left barrel proves the triggers weren't strummed?

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It doesn't really, but it kept the guys from flinching as they knew the second barrel would not whack them when it doubled. And most importantly *I* fired one of them and I don't strum..ever

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
It doesn't really, but it kept the guys from flinching as they knew the second barrel would not whack them when it doubled. And most importantly *I* fired one of them and I don't strum..ever

Well I guess that ends the discussion!

................................................................BYE!