quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mac: I have PERSONALLY witnessed three Merkels at our range doubling. And all three had a dummy round in the left barrel just to ensure it was not a case of "strumming" the triggers. That and the PLASTIC grip cap and aforementioned engraving, I'll take a GOOD Sabatti and keep the change. jorge

Jorge,

I don't often disagree with you but I must on the Merkel issue. Of course my only experience with them is the Merkel 500NE that I personally owned for 5 years. I hunted fairly extensively with that gun and it was 1) Hell for Stout!, 2) Completely reliable, and 3) Very accurate and easy to find loads that would regulate.

The rhino on the right side was a bit cartoonish but the elephant on the left was OK. Still, it was a properly functioning rifle and I always felt completely safe and well armed with it.

Doubling. It happened twice. Once when I let an RSA PH with no DR experience shoot it. I assumed he knew what he was doing and didn't notice when he put two fingers inside the trigger guard, one on each trigger, and fired the right barrel. Obviously, it doubled on him. The other time was when I let a friend shoot it and he admitted to strumming the rear trigger due to the recoil taking him by surprise. The rifle NEVER doubled on me and I pulled the rear trigger first a few times just to make sure I had the ability to select which barrel to fire first in circumstances dictated.

All that said, I think it is safe to say that today, you are I are firmly part of the VC mafia!! As much as I liked my Merkel, it doesn't hold a candle to Verny Carron. But I wouldn't mind having that Merkel back one day.

No issue Todd, I just experienced what I did and at the time I had the Sabatti and frankly, the Merkel just didn't do it for me and the doubling issue was real and no strumming/

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
No issue Todd, I just experienced what I did and at the time I had the Sabatti and frankly, the Merkel just didn't do it for me and the doubling issue was real and no strumming/

That would make an impression for sure!

Stop into G&H with 470 benjis and it can be yours.
Should make anyone happy.
500 NE will end any fight.

Or, if you're into retro, this Purdy 500 black is only 170 benjis.

Mac--It is no secret that I don't like Blaser double rifles for two reasons. # 1 is because the Blaser S-2 automatically de-cocks it's self if opened for any reason and must be manually re-cocked before it can be fired after. That is OK if the rifle is not used for close quarters follow-up on dangerous game, but damn dangerous if shots three and four are needed quickly.
___________
Agree with you, but a lot of guys hunt non dangerous game, so this isn't much of a problem.

#2 Though it is strong the tilt block requires a deep ledge over the chambers further restricting a fast reload and getting the rifle back in action at the worse possible moment.
__________________
Some people say the same thing about the Greener crossbolt such as found on your beloved Merkels.

Of course that would enhance the adrenaline rush when a big lion with a hole punched in his gut was getting close in a charge! Eeker

So my objection is to the system designed by folks who have no idea what is involved in building a double rifle for use on dangerous game! The rifle would only be ugly if it had a combi-cocking system exactly like the Krieghoff double, and a traditional locking system. I could get by with the UGLY, but not the system and lock-up design.
__________________
Agree with you. Blaser borrowed an excellent old German designed bolting system, a much stronger bolting system than any other double rifle bolting system used today by any and all makers, but didn't refine it properly, especially not for a dangerous game rifle.

I can't say about the accuracy so I'll take Daves word for that, and if that is true, and the shooter gets the first two shots in the right place and a re-load is not needed I suppose he would survive!
_______________
Again, that is all important if you are hunting dangerous game, but most guys,most of the time, are hunting non dangerous game.

Art, that's just visual poetry man, beautiful and thanks for posting.

Jack: Good post sir and I agree 100%. jorge

Whoever put that for shit recoil pad on the Jeffery should be bent over someone's knee and spanked . . . just think of how much more beautiful that rifle would be with a Silvers pad or a leather covered pad.

I do agree that the above Jeffery 500NE is about ideal. The Pad isn't too bad but I also agree a Silver's pad would be far better for appearances.
your average Westley Richards isn't far from perfect also;

Box lock Westley Richards in 375.F

One standing sight and four leaf sights . . . be interesting to use that last leaf sight.

What a piece of wood.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I do agree, that Jeffery 500NE is about ideal. The Pad isn't too bad but I agree a Silver's would be far better for appearance.
The Westley Richards isn't far from perfect also;

Gun Porn! Nice lines to that rifle and the wood is awesome, to say the least!

When you think about it, we all (using that term liberally) see a rifle like the two Jeffery's above and agree they are beautiful rifles. That being the case it makes you wonder why VC, Heym, Merkel, Chapius, Searcy, etc. do not simply take their design and replicate the lines of such rifles, i.e., splinter forearm, nice drop in the comb, slim, sleek look, etc. I am not aware of any modern manufacturer that does a rifle with the true lines of the classic British double. I wonder why.

Mike

+1

Although the rifle pictured just above is nice its stock shape cannot be compared to the most classic of double rifle or IMO,very well done doubles of today.The rear part of the stock is a little to short and wide.There is a custom rifle maker that I`ve seen that can make the rear part of the stock as nice as any double rifle ever made.I think Hartmann and Weiss make the front part of the rifle(from the trigger guard to the muzzle)very nice.I`ve also seen some pictures of Heyms that will blow the above rifle away.
[URL= ]a[/URL]

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Although the rifle pictured just above is nice its stock shape cannot be compared to the most classic of double rifle or IMO,very well done doubles of today.The rear part of the stock is a little to short and wide.There is a custom rifle maker that I`ve seen that can make the rear part of the stock as nice as any double rifle ever made.I think Hartmann and Weiss make the front part of the rifle(from the trigger guard to the muzzle)very nice.I`ve also seen some pictures of Heyms that will blow the above rifle away.
[URL= ]a[/URL]

That post really isn't worthy of a response. But I have to say that referring to a Westley Richards as not being comparable to the most classic of double rifles is a bit like saying that a Rolls Royce is not comparable to the most classic English cars. It makes no sense at all. For one, the beavertail fore-end on that Heym is in no way shape or form, "classic" and although the Heym pictured is a nice looking gun, it in no way compares favorably with the Jeffery or Westley Richards in terms of classic English double design. Frankly, that Heym in your picture looks more like a Kreighoff than a classic double. Nothing wrong with a Kreighoff, but a classic English Best gun it most certainly IS NOT!!

Here are some other doubles that I find attractive some pictures I googled.
[URL= ]my favorite-looks like a Searcy[/URL]

[URL= ]2[/URL]
[URL= ]3[/URL]
[URL= ]lon paul(just the rear wood on this one)[/URL]
Some solid looking doubles.
My least favorite are the Verney Carons-It is the only one I would probably not be happy with for free.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Although the rifle pictured just above is nice its stock shape cannot be compared to the most classic of double rifle or IMO,very well done doubles of today.The rear part of the stock is a little to short and wide.There is a custom rifle maker that I`ve seen that can make the rear part of the stock as nice as any double rifle ever made.I think Hartmann and Weiss make the front part of the rifle(from the trigger guard to the muzzle)very nice.I`ve also seen some pictures of Heyms that will blow the above rifle away.
[URL= ]a[/URL]

That post really isn't worthy of a response. But I have to say that referring to a Westley Richards as not being comparable to the most classic of double rifles is a bit like saying that a Rolls Royce is not comparable to the most classic English cars. It makes no sense at all. For one, the beavertail fore-end on that Heym is in no way shape or form, "classic" and although the Heym pictured is a nice looking gun, it in no way compares favorably with the Jeffery or Westley Richards in terms of classic English double design. Frankly, that Heym in your picture looks more like a Kreighoff than a classic double. Nothing wrong with a Kreighoff, but a classic English Best gun it most certainly IS NOT!!

It is true alot of Heyms look like Krieghoffs-that is why I stayed away.Many look like a more expensive Krieghoff,but some are really nice.

Also,when you are dealing with a 500NE and have two barrels,a rifle weighing 10lbs make look nice but it might be weak some place.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

That post really isn't worthy of a response.

There's the Center Of Gravity of this discussion...

Please stop abusing member Shootaway. I noticed on a couple o threads every response he makes is followed by a river of insults and belittling. I dont know how the argument started nor do I care. Take it outside or shut up. Man offered an opinion, and he is damn entitled to have one even if it may be completely wrong or misinformed. This thread was started in order to have a civil discussion about the most advanced technical properties of double rifles, not to settle personal scores.
Have a nice day gentelman

quote:

Originally posted by Zeljko:
Please stop abusing member Shootaway. I noticed on a couple o threads every response he makes is followed by a river of insults and belittling. I dont know how the argument started nor do I care. Take it outside or shut up. Man offered an opinion, and he is damn entitled to have one even if it may be completely wrong or misinformed. This thread was started in order to have a civil discussion about the most advanced technical properties of double rifles, not to settle personal scores.
Have a nice day gentelman

Pretty uppity for a man that don't go heels...But if you have a water tower and a sniper rifle handy, don't go here:

An accurate, well-engineered, technically perfect double rifle was designed several years ago, but you didn't like the Blaser S2! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
An accurate, well-engineered, technically perfect double rifle was designed several years ago, but you didn't like the Blaser S2! :-)

Biebs, your right but your about to get clobbered..LOLOLOL

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Hartmann and Weiss

These guys sure can rival the classic English gunmakers
http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
An accurate, well-engineered, technically perfect double rifle was designed several years ago, but you didn't like the Blaser S2! :-)

You been listening to "The One" from Quebec again?

Well, they tried to modernize the DR concept. Barrel action against the other barrel impacts accuracy, so they put each barrel in its own sleeve so they didn't interact. The tilting block allows one to carry a loaded firearm in complete safety, as the firing pins are not even in battery at that point....yadda, yadda, yadda.

But they didn't realize that we don't really want improvements, we want tradition. We're willing to spend $25K for a rifle that may not be able to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards, while a $175 Harrington Richardson or Mossberg would put them inside half that on a bad day. We tote around a 11-13 lb rifle, when a 9 lb bolt gun in 458 Lott generates more horsepower than most of them.

So don't talk about technically superior double rifles...that's like putting a blower on a Model T ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Well, they tried to modernize the DR concept. Barrel action against the other barrel impacts accuracy, so they put each barrel in its own sleeve so they didn't interact. The tilting block allows one to carry a loaded firearm in complete safety, as the firing pins are not even in battery at that point....yadda, yadda, yadda.

But they didn't realize that we don't really want improvements, we want tradition. We're willing to spend $25K for a rifle that may not be able to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards, while a $175 Harrington Richardson or Mossberg would put them inside half that on a bad day. We tote around a 11-13 lb rifle, when a 9 lb bolt gun in 458 Lott generates more horsepower than most of them.

So don't talk about technically superior double rifles...that's like putting a blower on a Model T ;-)

Damn straight!

Here is a holland and holland notice how nice and big and sturdy the rear of stock is.It is not too short or to thin or funny in any way.
[URL= ]holland[/URL]
Compare the drop on this holland to the Jeffrey pictured above.
The holland was meant to shoot with open sights-meant for the shooter to align his eyes with the sights.
The Jeffrey above was made by someone was either not smart or made it that way because the client wanted it that way in which case the client was lost.
When I was at Reno I asked the Rigby stockmaker who was carving the stock in front of everyone,why he is making the stcok with no drop and he replied because the client wanted it this way.He then put the bolt in and shouldered it and it seemed he could not find anything wrong with it.

...one needs to be a open sight shooter to understand what a stock should look like.I guess there are not that many out there.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
...you need to be a open sight shooter to understand what a stock should look like.I guess there are not that many out there.

Thank you George for your contributions to shooting and the shooting sports. To see you take your knowledge of shooting and firearms design and bring that knowledge to double rifles, well that is just priceless. My guess is that over the next several years as you immerse yourself in the subject of double rifles, the science and art of double rifles that has developed over the last century will largely be rewritten. I better stop, I am actually tearing up as I type.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
...you need to be a open sight shooter to understand what a stock should look like.I guess there are not that many out there.

Thank you George for your contributions to shooting and the shooting sports. To see you take your knowledge of shooting and firearms design and bring that knowledge to double rifles, well that is just priceless. My guess is that over the next several years as you immerse yourself in the subject of double rifles, the science and art of double rifles that has developed over the last century will largely be rewritten. I better stop, I am actually tearing up as I type.

Snif, Snif. Me too.

Mike,is there anything wrong with a simple hunter like myself attempting to understand rifles and rifle design or having an opinion on these matters?

None whatsoever. In fact, the more you opine on these matters, the more value folks know to assign to the opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Mike,is there anything wrong with a simple hunter like myself attempting to understand rifles and rifle design or having an opinion on these matters?

shootaway,
Your contributions always seem to be well "opinionated" with very little attempt to "understand". Perhaps you would be better off reading with less posting of some real disappointing comments BUT if you feel I'm incorrect in my assumptions, then for that I apologise.
The pictures of the rifle you posted are indeed lovely rifles, that includes the HEYM.
Another nice one. Jeffery 470NE&450/400 with a feature that is almost a "must" on a double, A flip up low light sight;

Shoots, that is a beautiful H&H. Likewise Adam, that WR is something special. Both very fine English guns.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Zeljko:
Please stop abusing member Shootaway. I noticed on a couple o threads every response he makes is followed by a river of insults and belittling. I dont know how the argument started nor do I care. Take it outside or shut up. Man offered an opinion, and he is damn entitled to have one even if it may be completely wrong or misinformed. This thread was started in order to have a civil discussion about the most advanced technical properties of double rifles, not to settle personal scores.
Have a nice day gentelman

Pretty uppity for a man that don't go heels...But if you have a water tower and a sniper rifle handy, don't go here:

Care to elaborate this?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Shoots, that is a beautiful H&H. Likewise Adam, that WR is something special. Both very fine English guns.

Do not think it is mine,I just
googled from google images.I once shot an old double like that at the big bore shoot and the trigger pull weight was so heavy you needed a hammer to fire the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Zeljko:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Zeljko:
Please stop abusing member Shootaway. I noticed on a couple o threads every response he makes is followed by a river of insults and belittling. I dont know how the argument started nor do I care. Take it outside or shut up. Man offered an opinion, and he is damn entitled to have one even if it may be completely wrong or misinformed. This thread was started in order to have a civil discussion about the most advanced technical properties of double rifles, not to settle personal scores.
Have a nice day gentelman

Pretty uppity for a man that don't go heels...But if you have a water tower and a sniper rifle handy, don't go here:

Care to elaborate this?

No, but feel free to click on the link provided. Edited to add: I for one like shootaway, but sometimes he-like all of us, has a lame-brained idea and if you'd hang around here a while, you'll see all of us do it, operative words "a while"..

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Pretty uppity for a man that don't go heels...But if you have a water tower and a sniper rifle handy, don't go here:

quote:

Care to elaborate this?

quote:

No, but feel free to click on the link provided.

Jorge, Maybe it a language barrier, but like Zeljko I simply don't understand your responce beyond the fact that his post upset you. The post link doesn't explain anything either, other than you have a very niceVC rifle. Jorge I'm not disgareeing with you but am simply unable to make out what you were trying to get across! My posts lately seem to draw ire from you for some reason, so don't take this as a personal afront because it is simply a request for an explanation so I may understand your reply to Zeljko.

..........................................................................................

Sure Mack, and first let me say if my posts addressed to you seemed curt, that was not my intention at all. You asked about the doubling I experienced with the Merkels in an incredulous sort of way and I responded accordingly.

As to Zeljko, my response was twofold; To indicate that often-times we ALL get frustrated with George's "circular logic" and secondly, with just fifteen posts, it might be a good idea to get a "feel" for the place and it's members before coming in and dictating behavior. That was all.