Okay, folks.. Here's my thoughts.
which, of these three only, would you think about building into a ~8.5-9# , and why? I can pretty much get the barrels and reamers easily, and I am not interested in the additional $$$$$$ for a 450/400 (though I would just load a 500/416 to that) or a 470

Question:
Please pick ONE of these three. I am not considering other rounds at this time.

Choices:
500/416 loaded to 400gr at 2150
450 NE
450 #2

 

Why did I vote for 450NE ?

You can load a whole range of bullets,
lead and jacketed, to a whole load of
pressures and velocity from BP to full Nitro.

I prefer straight cases to bottle necked cases.

Cases easier to come by.

And I prefer 450 NE to 450 No 2.

450 #2 offers close to Lott like ballistics and is all the power needed from a 45 cal. Double...........What's not to like.... To me a Double is a close quarters "save your ass round" and a 45 cal is better in that role IMHO than a smaller cal.

At original factory speeds the 450 No2 has the lowest pressure.

However, a 400 gr bullet at 2150fps would be more in line with a 9 lb rifle.

I agree with Tony. 9 lb rifle = .416 @ 2150fps.

Keith

jeffe - the 450 #2 would require a larger breech than a 450 straight and might give you a little more weight exactly where you want it - between your hands. that's my choice, esp do to the lower pressures.

the 450 straight can be built into a more slender rifle but i think lighter weight will be more abusive.

why not go to 10 # or close ? i think it would be more pleasant to shoot.

500-416 @ 2150

You can add a light scope, stay under 10# and use it for everything... exactely what I did in a Blaser S2 with Kahles CSX 1.5-6 - but has 11 lbs ready to go

Thanks Guys

Tony, Keith ..
Remember, most LOTTS are 9 to 9.5, and I think the are "just right", but a 2150, well, 8.5# doesn't bother me much, as long as it fits... my baby son's 458win weighs 8#, and is a little zippy...

After shooting some 450/400s, epecially with full house loads, I find that, imho, they are fun fun fun, but generally a pound too heavy, or so.

Tom,
thanks..but a 450 ne2 and a 500/416 are the same case size, right? In either event, i'll be using a 20ga action, like merkel

Daydreamer,
if i do the 500/416 aka 450/400 No2 aka 450/400 Bubba, I would aim for 8 unloaded/unscoped !!!!

jeffe

No, the .450 No 2 and the .500/.416 are not the same case. Different base diameter, different length...

There is some debate about the Merkel being a shotgun action...

Since you're building it on a shotgun action, you need to keep chamber pressure and bolt thrust down as low as possible (better off with BPE, not Nitro), and the .450 No. 2 is the lowest of the choices on both counts, by good margins. Even then, it's still not your brightest idea, Jeffe.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
No, the .450 No 2 and the .500/.416 are not the same case. Different base diameter, different length...

There is some debate about the Merkel being a shotgun action...

I agree on the 500/416 case being different from the 450/400NE 3"!

The actions used by merkel are all treated for rifle use, so rather than Merkel's rifle being built on shotgun actions, Merkel's shotguns are made on rifle actions. That way, Merkel only has to make one action for each size, whether for a shotgun or a rifle!

quote:

Since you're building it on a shotgun action, you need to keep chamber pressure and bolt thrust down as low as possible (better off with BPE, not Nitro), and the .450 No. 2 is the lowest of the choices on both counts, by good margins.

Depending on what action you are thinking of useing, they could be fine for NE use,or not so, but most shotgun makers, especially those who do not make double rifles,make their actions too soft, or too much steel cut away for ease of manufacture, for rifle use!

Mark,
okay, fair enough.. they are different.. but not different enough to go in another direction or choose another action (tomo's point)

.. it's not like going from 450 to 577 the 450/400 case is certainly smaller than the 500/416 case... but not "enough" to warrant a larger frame, in my mind.

of course, the 500 and 500/416 are the same case (base case)... and merkel does a 500 on their actions.. and I am not going any larger than that (odd for me to say)

I happen to think the 500/416 would have been "perfect" if it had been loaded to 450/400 levels...

The 450 ne2 loaded to spec is certainly the lowest, when compared to the others at spec.. but a 500/416 loaded to 2150 would also be low pressure.

jeffe, what does Quick-Load, "say" about the pressures of the 450NE#2/500gr and the 500-416/400gr @2150fps?

Keith

quote:

After shooting some 450/400s, epecially with full house loads, I find that, imho, they are fun fun fun, but generally a pound too heavy, or so.

I think, most 450-400s DRs are in the 10 - 10 1/2lb range. So, a 9 lb DR 500-416, 400gr@ 2150, should be "Sweet".

Keith

comparing the 450/400 3 1/4 to the 500/416

case capacity
124gr 135gr

spec operating pressure, PSI, at nominal
44236 44951 (about 38,000cup)

predicted pressure to get 400gr to 2150 w/ 24" barrels - quickload (same error for both)
33,000 31500 psi

Or, close enough to the "Same" for me...

but..
barrels, bullets, and brass are FAR cheaper, and I have access to the 500/416 reamer, which is why the 450/400 was precluded.

if 400gr at 2150 (about what a 10.75x68 does) was in an EIGHT# double, it would be a thing of beauty, as a 8# 10.75x68 is a popgun in terms of recoil

jeffe

I want to build a 22 Hornet on the Stoeger 410 shotgun I have standing in the gun safe.

22 high power you said?

a 22 hornet double rifle on a 410 frame !!!!

go for it rusty !!!

i've got the one piece top rib to simplify your work, tom

Rusty, I built a 30-30- Ackley on a Stoger. I had to make smaller niples and firing pins, I also had to open up the action for larger and more powerful hammer springs(problems with rifle primers). I also built a 45-70 on a 12 gauge Stoger and had to do the same. Its a lot of extra work but they held up good. I use the 30-30 every year for deer. It weighs almost 6 lb. with the scope. Barrels are .050 thick at the muzzles. Everyone wants it but i am a little leary about the bbls. I won't sell it for that reason. Not enough leway on the bbls. Besides i like it to much. Killed a lot of deer . Rich

Here are some calculations for bolt thrust from Excell. I don't know if they will look as good here, but I trust you'll get it figured out.
The 500-416 loaded down to 30,000 psi would seem to be the easiest on the gun and just barely over a 3.5" 12 ga.
Bolt thrust- pressure- base- pounds thrust- Bore- Bullet
500-416 NE- 42- 0.58- 3532- 0.416- 400-2400-
500-416 NE 3.25" 135gnsH2O light 30ksi- 30- 0.58- 2523- 0.416- 400-2115-
450 NE 3 1/4"- 44- 0.548- 3303- 0.458- 500-2200-
450 no. 2 3.5"- 35- 0.564- 2783- 0.455- 500-2200-
450-400 Nitro 3"- 40.6- 0.544- 3004- 0.408- 400-2270-

10 ga shotgun- 11- 0.855- 2010-
12 ga 3 1/2" mag shotgun- 14- 0.827- 2394-
12 ga 2 3/4"shotgun- 11.5- 0.827- 1966-
16 ga- 11.5- 0.74- 1574-

My next thought was to keep the base of the case as small as possible.
So what about a 416 Taylor Rimmed with 2.5" 45-110 brass. Loaded to 40ksi it should be able to get a 400gn bullet out at 2040fps with 69gns RL-19, and have a bolt thrust of 2550 pound feet. At least looking at Quickload anyway.
Anybody with a 416 Taylor that could try some light loads to verify the velocity?

Or jump up to the 416 Rem and use a longer 45 basic case. Probably cut the chamber just slightly short so you couldn't chamber a 416 rem round.

416 Taylor with 45-110 case, 2.5" -92 gns 40 0.505 2550 0.416 400 2040 RL-19 69gns 340-2290, 67gn RL-15
416 Rem with 45 basic 2.85"- 107 gns 40 0.505 2550 0.416 340-2400, RL-25 400-2200 RL-22 82gns 450-2130, RL-25
416 Rem x 3.25 45 Basic 130gns =416 Rigby 40 0.505 2550 0.416 340-2530 400-2340 450-2240, RL-25 450-2200, RL-22

so, I can't find my book of standard proofmarks (i think jana hid it!)

Can someone tell me what a sauer 20ga, from teh 50s or 60s would be proofed to?
thanks
j

anyone got a 450 or 450 NE reamer and gages they would like to loan? If i can't find them, it'll be the 500/416, i think

jeffe

I know someone in your county(opposite end) who still has(?) a 450NE reamer. Maybe something can be worked out.

Keith

just re-ordered a "book of standard proofs" ...

what is the outside, rim and case, diamater of a 20ga?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
just re-ordered a "book of standard proofs" ...

what is the outside, rim and case, diamater of a 20ga?

Base: .690"

Rim: .760"

Keith

may wind up being a 45-120 ...with a barnes 450 TSX, it should go at 2000fps, with low pressure, and a rem 405 at 2150 ish...

brass - norma makes it
reamer - 36 bucks and shipping
dies 45 bucks
barrels - well, let's just say I can get 45 barrels cheap

jeffe

jeffe - here's one to consider.

unless you need an african caliber..... an absolutely wonderful chambering would be the 405 winchester.

rifles built on small frame doubles in 405 handle quickly, have little recoil - shoot as much as you want , and for pigs, deer elk etc it is a really nice round.

and hornaday will sell you some ammo to get started

Tom,
thanks.. but I have to tell you, I am nto interested in anything other than .416 or .458 bullets for this ... even a .375 is basicaly out of the question, due to barrel and bullet cost..

hell, I am going to screw this up, anyway, why spend the extra time for reamer, brass, dies, and barrels

.416 or .458, unless someone has a pair of .510 or .475 barrels sitting around.

anyone got any 450NE or #2 dies for sale (cheap?)...

can't make up my mind of a 45/120 (cheapest), 450 NE something, or a 500/416... a soft loaded 500/416 does kind of tickle me, but a bubba'ed up 45/120 seems cool, too

jeffe

jeffe

If you are not making it for African use then a 45/70 or the 45/120 makes the most sense.

Easy cheap brass, and .458 bullets are the cheapest of all and avialable in more different velocity performance windows than any other caliber.

For use in North America a 9,3x74R, 405 Win, or a 45/70 double have a lot to recommend them.

Tony,
thinking REALLY hard on the 45/120... it has benefits, on several fronts... the 500/416 gives me a 450/400 ne2 (heh) or the 500/416 bubba!

i need to go run pressures to see what I can get to.. we know it's realy just a pig/deer/jug gun... and 400gr at 2050 in either blows these type of critters down

jeffe

Jeffe
I have a 45/110 sharps rather heavy rifle. I shoot her with Blackpowder, loaded up to the top then compressed a bit with a 550gr bullet. She can lead at the dance!(I am not that recoil sensative) A very fun rifle to shoot. I only shoot holy black out of her as she is a converted 45/70. 45/120 should be even better was gonna take mine out the extra bit. The way mine 45/70 double thumped my bear last year (405gr at 1850fps) I bet a 45/120 would really get their attention.
Dean

jeffe
Several things make the 45/120 the best choice.
Barrels, reamers, cases and bullets, make the 45/120 not only easy and economical to make, but very inexpensive to shoot, which is important if you want to shoot a it lot.

Pigs/deer/and jugs do not care if the cartridge has "Nitro Express" in its name or not, however your wallet will each time you buy brass and powder.

Dean, Tony,
thanks.. 45/120 NE (lol, i MIGHT) i think it is...

let's see, 8#? seriously, remmy 405s at 2150fps would be a hoot, and just fast enough to make them flying bombs@@ but 2000 would be just fine, lots lower pressure, and, well, just good old fun... like hitting a tin can with your old pellet rifle... <paatink> <lol> <paatink> <lol>

of course, some 450gr FN 20B hardcasts would also make bacon!

hell, it aint going over, i doubt it, so why not a
45/120 NE

jeffe, I got nice broadside exits with the Remmy 405s @ 2112fps, from my Lott, on a 210lb boar. Slapped the cr@* out of him, he did not like it one bit. Then he fell over, daaad.

Keith

PS: The above load is my plinking load in my Lott.

jeffe

Also, if a person did want to hunt bigger game with the 45/120 double there are some great premium bullets in the 350 to 450gr weight from North Fork, Swift, Trophy Bonded, Barnes, etc.

even better mon ami, neck the 45-100 (2 7/8" long) straight out to .475" Brass from Starline, and you can make your own dies from Dave Manson's reamer set.

Be creative.

Rich
DRSS

Rich

If you neck up to .475 you loose the main advantage of the .458 bore, ie the multitude of different bullets avialable.

With no real gain in killing power, especially for the 45/120 case.

I am in the process of building a 450-400 regulated for the 300 gr. Hornady at 2300 fps. The pressure will be low and the gun can be 8 lbs. Plenty of horse power for anything but the big boys. Rich

if you don't mind a "sissy" cartridge, what about borrowing my 38-90wcf reamer? It was necked down .012" by the germans about a hundred or so years ago and named the 9,3x74R. Easy to make brass, run the x74R thru the FL sizer, load using top end x74R data, and go shoot it. Dave at CH$D did this about twenty years ago, and it kills cape buffalo. Best, it's pretty easy to take the diamond tip dremel tool bit and make a "9,3" into a "9,5" so the headstamp matches. CH4D sells the dies as 9,5x74R.

Rich
DRSS

Rich

Rich
DRSS