Rich,
thanks for thinking of me I had seriously thought about this, as we had talked about this, and dave and I had talked about it..
9,3 and .375 barrels and bullets are a bit more $$$ than 458s.... as well as brass and dies ...

just making a piggie shooter! while i won't get it for $750 that a spartan (i owe 577exp 2 bucks) was going to sell for......

Jeffe

For a piggie/fun/bubba double [and there is nothing wrong with that concept] the 45/70 or the 45/120 is the way foward.

Me, I would be perfectly happy with a 45/70.

It would be great for deer, wild pigs, black bear over bait and even elk in the thick.

Tony,
I can shoot 45/70 in a 120, but not the 120 in a 45/70.. and you KNOW i might as well go big... LOL

besides, 45/120 is 3.25" case... not 2!!

jeffe
What about the bullet wobbeling in the chamber. gas escaping and the bullet shearing on the throat. I would think that would be a big jump.
Rich

I am no fan of shotgun actions for double rifles, but a Browning SxS that has been hardened is a fairly good action and has worked for many years now..but they have almost no resale value.

I built a .470 on a 12 ga. Browning action with a lot of help from a friend, a learning experience and something I decided I didn't want to do again. It is still being shot by the guy I sold it too. pretty easy to build, but regulating is tricky and I think it best done by someone that does that a whole lot.

If I were to do that over, I would use a DR action..better yet I would just stock it.

RD,
like shooting 458winmag in a 458lott or 38 in a 357, or 45LC in a 458 casul... Not material


Ray,
I have already tried my hand at this, and the results of the first attempt wasn't lovely. regulation was to 4 MOA in two outings, and the project went on a haitus at about 3 MOA. I am far more concerned about the fit and finish of this project than concerned about the DIFFICULTY of regulation. I can do that part, easy enough

thanks for the feedback on the opinion of making or not making froma double shotgun action... this is as much CHOICE as using a 1909 or prewar mauser action to make a sporter from.. for exactly the same reasons.

jeffe
The cartridges you refer to only have to jump approx 1/8 inch and less than 1/3 of a inch for the 458 Lott. the bollet is still in the case when it engages the rifling. Shooting a 45-70 in a 45-120 chamber the jump is over 1 inch and the bullet is completely out of the case before touching the throat. RD Show

yes, and it will "Slug Up" to fit that area, maybe get sideways a little; and then have to resize down to bore diameter as it hits the throat. Messy.

Rich
DRSS

Hey Jeffe

I sent you a PM

elmo

20ga sauer to 45/120 NE!!!

yeah, it'll take a year, but starting now means it's done in 12, not 20, months of elapsed time

Jeffe, I think you got it now. good luck. Rich

Gents,
i wasn't inferring of using a 45/120 chamber and then shooting 45/70s in it all the time. a box of 100 norma 45/120 is less than 200 bucks, delivered.. and dies are about 45 on the same order.. the jamison 450 NE brass is unknown on delivery, but norma is about 520 delivered and then 200 for dies... \

with brass 2 bucks each, yeah, i'll be paying attention, but not "Worried" so much..

but, should I wind up someplace without ammo, but with a walmart, i could, in a pinch, use it as a one shooter and 45/70 ammo

jeffe

Jeffe

It's on the way. check PM

elmo

thanks Elmo!!

45/120.. sooner or later!

Well, I have in my hands a nice and light 20 ga sauer, and I am going to start work on the monoblock .. i'll even keep this one workable as a 20, and make a 45/120 set of barrels.. turned down lighter than most, i hope

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Tony,
I can shoot 45/70 in a 120, but not the 120 in a 45/70.. and you KNOW i might as well go big... LOL

besides, 45/120 is 3.25" case... not 2!!

Jeffe, I had tried shooting the .45-70 in my .45-120 ruger I had reamed out, and it seemed the .45-70 is just too short, because upon ejecting cases, there were signs where the gasses has worked behind the case mouth and bent the cases inward in weird ways. Not that it would hurt anything, but it's freaky.
I'd probably shoot no shorter than .45-90 in the 120.

p.s.-The 120 can do .450 nitro ballistics. I've done it many times, simply duplicating the load, BUT, there is slightly more room in the .450 case. I've had to compress 4831 in the 120 to get same load. I don't guess this hurts but it's not as "neat" as I'd have liked it.
Of course rl-15 would be no problem.
Second, the base dia of the 120 is so much smaller, the 120 seems to form the "ring" around the base faster, showing potential splits "sooner" than with the .450
But, brass is cheaper and more available, so this too is trivial.
There is nothing wrong with the 120 with nitro loads. I'd take them against the biggest critter. However, to me anyway, it just nags me sometimes that it's not an actual .450
I even did one of these 120 chambers in a handi-rifle, and with 22" barrel, and lead in the butt, it was like being kicked by a horse.
Even worse than a light .500 3"
The balance and aesthetics of that gun were murder.
hehe-fun though

Just to note: something you may be interested in.
I'm almost finished with a new cape-gun built on a cz ringneck 12ga.
has 28' barrels.
Left barrel is .500 3" "light nitro only" max proof was with the full nitro load, but to keep the stability of gun itself intact and to not further any complications it will be marked and shot as a BPE, nitro for black, and light nitro "tropical" at 68grs. cordite eqv. 570 MAX.
The 68 gr. load was an old Eley tropical load.
All I lack now is the finishing on the sights,
and a bit of tweaking everything.
Right barrel is left as 12ga. 3"
I'll post pics soon.
I must say, to anyone that is curious, these cz ringnecks are built for this type stuff and they are super tough. Greener cross bolt, side clips, double underlugs, the whole nine yards.
The firing pin holes do not even have to be bushed-just use good primers all the time and everything is fine. The holes are just as small as the hole on a ruger Lott bolt. They do have the gas escape avenues cut into the face,-not that these actually help anything in reality, but they are there.
The next ringneck I work on is going for both barrels-hehe!!
But, this current one is gonna make a nice combo gun-think jungle type stuff. Birds to buff, it'll do it all.
Even against buff, it can have the left barrel with the light nitro, and the 12ga. barrel can still be loaded with a hardened lead ball over 7-drms eqv.-the top end 12 bore ball load.
I kept it simple and left off a quarter rib, instead going with a single leaf island set-up which is adjustable. Both barrels shoot to same point. Bird shot overlapps the bullet hole perfectly. Actually, I think I lucked out on that part.
The .500 base was as far as I could safely go on a 12ga.-I'd have to have a 10ga. to do a .577 and keep it inside safety margins.
I'll start a new thread with pics. I don't want to take this one off topic.

well, i finally started this project...
and still cant make up my mind which... i am certain it will either be a 45/120, or a 450NE ... the remington 405s clinch the deal for a 45 ... unless someone had 500/416 dies and brass CHEAP .. or a 450/400 x .416 dies and reamer..

making a monobloc from 4140, perhaps even getting a good start on that tomorrow

jeffe

jeffe, With Hornady now making both 300 & 400gr, .410" bullets and 450-400 3" brass. That would get my vote. Who knows, you may get tired of it one day.

Keith

Keith
the economics kill the deal for me...
if available, 450/400, 45/120
reamer rental, w gauges and postage ..$75
i have access to 500/416

dies with shipping
45/120 rcbs, $50
450/400, 450NE, 500/416 - 165 CH4D, 400 rcbs

brass, per hundred
500/416 $350-450 (jamison isn't making commerical stuff right now) - basically not available
450/400 $275-300
45/120 $150

barrels
450/400 - 600 (no joke)
500/416 - 200 (ab)
45/120 - 200 (ab)

heck, it'll always be a shotgun that got barreled.. and unlike some folks, i aint foolish enough to think it's worth much more than it was as a shottie...

probably going to become a 45/120...
jeffe

McGowen .458 barrels ordered today

Jeffe
Did you get my PM? I have the barrels and will have a shotgun in a day or two. I am going to build a 44/40 plinker. If all works out Ill spend the $ to build a nice 303 british. I hate to spend big $ if I am going to screw it up. Also I dont want a ton of $ in a gun that wont be worth anything to anyone but me. If they work ill use them. Thats why I sold the Kodiak I couldnt bring myself to beat a $3k rifle in the woods.
Dean

BearChief !, Go !!! start to make your double rifle !!! I like smart but brave men too!!!
Im waiting the Ellis Brown's book and in the meaning time, looking for a good shotgun, I know that radial chamber pressures is a different concept to base breach pressure, cup & psi are different measures units , etc... but take a look to those encore pistols shooting 300 W.M. or bigger cartriges at all barrel leng, (Birmingham tested??? )those Rossi single shot rifle using 308 winch.(48000 cup or 56000 psi )All with a one tiny tig soldered underbarrel slug and 1/2" inch pin , even the 500 & 460 S&W magnum revolvers shooting thousands cartridges with 50000 psi loads!!! I really believe that those design cant be,better than a CrNi or 4140 triple lock shotgun platform and I dont think that the missalignement between the bore axis and the locks in a shotgun (different than the single shot designs mentioned like above) be a issue in a good shotgun action.
But, surely I would never try to do a 700 NE in a cheap Spanish or Brazilian shotgun !!!.Its just my humble opinion,

400 NE; What do you think about this matter ? you have huge knowledgements, contribute please .

Any Double maker or Master Gunsmith opinion here, please !

Jeffeoso; Post the pictures of "the Making of"

Cheers !!! Guillermo.

Guillermo,
I have already made (twice) a decently WORKING double, that was minute of grapefruit at 30yards... but I have learned ALOT more from that than one could imagine.

I am using 4140 for the monoblock, and building a complete second set of barrels


dont', please, confuse me with a master gunsmith or double maker.. i am a BUBBA most days, and a decent hobbiest on otherS!!

spanish doubles AYA especially, usually are SOFT SOFT SOFT...
jeffe

450 Nitro Express 3 1/4" 480 gr DGX 8255
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
2150/4927 1872/3733 1618/2792 1397/2080

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
-1.5 0.0 -8.5 -30.4

Jeffe,

This is the proposed new offering from Hornady..

could this sway your choice?

Roger QSL

Jeffe,

Anything more on your project?

Roger QSL

Hey Guys,
Well, I took some pictures of the 4140 block we are making the monoblock out of.. nothing exciting. Rather than using his shaper, Tom it roughing it with a carbide slitting saw... oddly enough, the finish is amazing.

I am talking to a couple guys about reamers... and Hornady brass certainly does change things abit.. anyone got a 450 NE dieset CHEAP?

i might can find a 450 ne reamer and gages, too...

I do think that the 45/120 is more than a little neat, in its setting... being that it predates the 450 NE and all ... but in a BP loading...

aiming for regulation of 400gr at 2100 or so... not looking to make anything but what it is... a boarrifle!
jeffe

looks like i got a 45/120 reamer lined up..

if a set of 450 NE dies shows up cheap, with some (40?) pieces of brass showed up quick....

yeah, i didnt think so, and it may very well be the 45/120

45/120 it is ...
i bought a reamer today for a fair price
I'll order dies and brass next...

which, in theory, means I have all the major parts ordered... and now the work begins

jeffe

reamer on the way
barrels nearly ready to ship
tapes, dies, drills and reamers on the way
monoblock (outside will be left square ish until further along)

starting to fit the monoblock this week
jeffe

There's a guy I know that wants to sell a Beretta 12ga for about $500-600(1960s Silver Hawk, DT, extr, greener bolt). Would this be too bulky for a 45-70 or 45-90 build? Seems much sturdier than a Spanish 20 ga(Universal Arms import, 1980s) I can get cheaper.

I would think hard about it.. but i would certainly do the proofmarks ..and certainly find out..

I want to build mine sort of light, but it would probably be a good one for a 45/120 or 450 NE
jeffe

got some tooling last night, and a 3" face mill last weekend .. tom "roughed" (with .01) the lump and greener on my monobloc... now that i have my facemill, i might make the next one..

big drills, tap, die, and such are on hand
barrels should ship next week

going to verify no backlash has creeped into my mill (cnc and it's 45 deg today, rather than the usual 90) and set the breechface on the mono ... then drill, ream, tap ...

and be ready for my barrels!!!

its way too cold to apply wood finish

Mine will be a blackpowder 50-90/110 Sharpes. Doing this in a fifty to save weight and the blackpowder to keep pressures low. Chose the .509 cal because the barrels were available and the chambering for the straight wall design to maximize wall diameter at the breach. If This one works may look at a 577-500 BPE 3 inch for another. Rodney.

ordered my brass and dies today..

Rodney, the 50/110 CAN be low pressure,. but the BP is self doesn't mean is WILL be...

doing it on a spanish action, or a browning?

spanish actions can be REMARKABLY soft...
jeffe

Received my 45/120 reamer!
jeffe

1909 LC Smith sidelock hammer gun. Also recieving another double tonight for the sole purpose of a rifle design. Probably a 45 something. Guess we will see how maney fingers I can blow off... A freind of mine owns a little rifle company near me and has built a 50-70 Govt on a simalar action as my smith, he strongly encouraged using the 50-70 but he was OK with the 50-90. I will start with light loads and use filler if needed. Had an engineer design the barrels and work up pressure ratings for the tubes. With the wall thickness in the finished product he figured the barrels good to 43,000 psi, the action on the other hand was why I chose a blackpowder chambering and so far everone involved in the project is good with it. It's mine so obviously I will be the first crash test dummie. Will post pictures soon. Rodney.

man, you must be going THIN barrels.. 43K psi for yeild on the barrels? hmm, might be a number off there, as the barrel makers are so lawyered up... well, aint a marlin 15/16 barrel shank, and with a 45/70, well, that barrel gets real thin real fast..

i litterally tied my first one, and will this one, to a tire to proof it. .. but i am planning on 400gr at ~2100, nothing hotter, as it is "just" a pig and deer gun...

jeffe

Don't know if it is possible etc., but I think a model 21 would make a great looking DR. I've got one in a 12 gauge that was handed down from my great grandad. It's simple and clssic in aesthetic. Just thought I'd throw that in. I'm interested to see how ithis conversion turns out.

The barrel wall thickness at muzzle will be just about .125" or an 1/8 inch. Remember it's my fingers at stake here. My CZ in 458 Lott is only .110" wall at muzzle, but I'm sure there is alot of a difference in steel. I'm using Greenmountain barrels .509" bore and 1 in 24 twist. Intend on using cast bullets and experiment from there. The pressures were figured for the weakest point in the barrel and I had calculations for the forces on the rcvr and will dig them out to share here. As far as regulation it will be trial and error or hit and miss, probably more miss! This is/ was intended to be a fun project so if I scrap it out it's only my loss besides I picked up another double tonight as a backup or for a future project. Good shootin yall. Rodney.

Projects in the works. R.
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